Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy
Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: Medieval Europe
Forum Discription: The Middle Ages: AD 500-1500
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=7986
Printed Date: 12-May-2024 at 17:14
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.56a - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy
Posted By: Mila
Subject: Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy
Date Posted: 31-Dec-2005 at 17:33
|
ROMAN CATHOLICISM and EASTERN ORTHODOXY
I N B O S N I A A N D H E R Z E G O V I N A ROMAN CATHOLICISM
Roman Catholicism arrived in Bosnia and Herzegovina at roughly the same time it did elsewhere in the Roman Empire but was much slower to spread and take hold. Pagan Illyrian cultural practices adopted by the Slavs of Bosnia and Herzegovina were still commonplace in these early years and, for a time, greatly influenced Bosnian perceptions and understanding of Roman Catholicism. During this era, Bosnia and Herzegovina was not recognized as a distinct nation but existed as a region of the territory that would one day constitute Croatia. The Bosnian Catholic diocese of VrhBosna ruled over the core of the Bosnian region but had very little power beyond the Miljacka Valley settlements. It was from this VrhBosna diocese that the distinct and heretical Bosnian Church developed, having mirrored developments that had long ago taken hold in the surrounding countryside. King Kulin became the first leader of the Bosnian region as a political entity. He was a devout member of the Bosnian Church and - although he renounced his heretical beliefs to the Pope in an attempt to stay numerous Roman Catholic incursions into the area - he and his heirs, right up until the Kotromanic family, practiced the Bosnian faith. The pink and orange areas of this map depicts the VrhBosna region over which King Kulin reigned.  The rise of the Bosnian church did not
spell the end of Roman Catholicism in the region. Franciscan monks have
operated on the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina continuously for
the past several centuries. They converted many pagans and members of
the Bosnian church.
In addition, Bosnia and Herzegovina expanded its borders to include neighboring regions where Roman Catholicism was still the accepted faith. While the Roman Catholic church was responsible for many forays into Bosnia and Herzegovina - attempts to exterminate the Bosnian church that left thousands slaughtered - it is important to note none of these incursions were carried out or supported by Roman Catholics on the territory of what is now Bosnia and Herzegovina. EASTERN ORTHODOXY Eastern Orthodoxy, on the other hand, was a relative new-comer to the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina. In fact, the first Orthodox churches in Bosnia and Herzegovina were actually built in Serbia. They became a part of Bosnia and Herzegovina only during the Kotromanic dynasty's wars of territorial conquest with Serbia near the end of the independent Bosnian kingdom (See the eastern yellow area on the map) "The original Bosnia and the parts of the Croatian kingdom annexed up until the reign of Stjepan II Kotromanic, did not have any Orthodox inhabitants. But an Orthodox population could be found in those border regions which earlier belonged to medieval Serbia, and which during the reigns of Stjepan II (east Zahumlje) and Tvrtko I (Podrinje, Travunja) became a part of Bosnia. Only in those border regions, in the east and south-east, which became a part of an enlarged Bosnia, could one find Orthodox churches and convents." (Bosnian Borders, by Tomislav Rauka) During the Kotromanic reign, the first Orthodox churches were built in the heart of Bosnia and Herzegovina but serviced relatively small populations. In fact, more than 30 per cent of Bosnia and Herzegovina's current Eastern Orthodox population arrived in the country during and after the 1992-1995 war (Croatian Serb population movements, Vlada RS). ------------- |
Replies:
Posted By: Spartakus
Date Posted: 31-Dec-2005 at 17:43
|
R"oman Catholicism arrived in Bosnia and Herzegovina at roughly the same time it did elsewhere in the Roman Empire " Roman Catholicism was spread only in the Western Roman Empire.The Eastern Empire was Orthodox.Concerning the Balkans,they were under the rule of the Patriarchate of Constantinople,until the Byzantine border were shrunk in the Balkans.Cannot forget the battle between the Pope and Patriarch for the territory of Bulgaria... ------------- "There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. " --- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996) |
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 31-Dec-2005 at 17:51
|
Slavonia, Bosnia, Dalmatia and other areas of Croatia that later
claimed their independence were never the acknowledged subjects of the
Byzantine Empire. Portions of southeast Bosnia and Herzegovina were part of the Byzantine Empire but these are the same regions mentioned above as having been incorporated into the country only during the Kotromanic dynasty. ------------- |
Posted By: Spartakus
Date Posted: 31-Dec-2005 at 18:10
|
The specific area of Dalmatia and Bosnia was pretty much changing hands from time to time.For example,during the 9th century with the expanion of Bulgars,especially of Symewn(893-927) those territories were not in the hands of the Empire.This situation changed during the Byzantine expansion from 950 to 1050 were they were conquered by Basileius the Second "Killer of the Bulgars" (if i am not mistaked).Then again they were lost to be regained by the Byzantines during the rule of the komninoi,especially of Manuel the First(1143-80). ------------- "There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. " --- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996) |
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 31-Dec-2005 at 18:59
|
There are competing claims as to who was actually in control of this
region and both the Roman and Byzantine empires made unrealistic claims
that we know were not accurate. The Romans, for example, claimed to
have conquered Kotorac (near Sarajevo) - a fortified village that we
now know had vanished from existence long before Rome ever entered this
region. What we do know is the Roman Empire had and maintained a level on control here. Our churches were western, our roads went west, our taxes went west, and even Serbian history books acknowledge Bosnians were never the "acknowledged subjects" of the Byzantine Empire - whatever that means. Did they say they owned us, yes. Did they, probably. Did the people living here at the time even know, probably not. ------------- |
Posted By: Herschel
Date Posted: 31-Dec-2005 at 19:02
|
Another thread by Mila, another thread pertaining to Bosnia. Thanks for the post, I actually found it interesting. Next time, please post more pictures of Bosnian woman as you have in your other threads. |
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 31-Dec-2005 at 19:07
|
The border between Bosnia and Serbia was one of the strongest, most
strictly defined in the Balkans. It changed hardly at all throughout
the centuries because of the inhospitable terrain in the area,
especially along the Drina and Tara rivers. Even when this area was part of the Ottoman province of Bosnia, which included a vast area of modern-day Serbia and Montenegro:  You see the penis-shaped appendage on the eastern flank of the province? This is the Sandzak. It was awarded to Serbia and Montenegro in 1912 but had, and to this day has, a population that is overwhemingly Muslim. Until 1992, the area of Bosnia and Herzegovina proper just across the border from the Sandzak was the most densely Muslim region of this country as well, the Podrinje. Even when both sides of the border were Islamic, with very close cultural ties (The capitals of Sandzak and Bosnia were both founded by the same man) there was very little interaction because of the border. No roads, no ships, nothing but a few foot trails. It's more or less the same today and nothing like the Bosnia and Herzegovina proper, which is criss-crossed by old Roman roads heading everywhere. That border is a brick wall and the Byzantine's never controled anything, in any real sense, beyond it. ------------- |
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 31-Dec-2005 at 19:08
No man should speak to a woman with such contempt and disrespect. If you have a problem with threads about Bosnia, don't participate in them. At least I'm posting something. ------------- |
Posted By: Heraclius
Date Posted: 31-Dec-2005 at 19:35
|
Lets not have you two arguing here if you wouldn't mind, these kind of things have a habit of getting very personal very quickly. I'm sure you can both co-exist. Originally I to objected to the number of Bosnia related threads, however 1, like Mila said atleast she is posting something 2, they do actually tend to be very interesting and informative on a part of the world I was until recently rather unfamiliar with. ------------- A tomb now suffices him for whom the world was not enough. |
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 31-Dec-2005 at 19:42
Sorry Heraclius. It's just what I know the most about and like
discussing the most, showing off the most, that sort of thing. I'm
doing better though, yes?  I was focussed completely on Islamic
and Jewish Bosnia at first. Now I've gotten Roman Catholic and Eastern
Orthodox Bosnia in groove.There's only so many Bosnia's left before I have to move on more fully to Albania and Kosovo. There's just nothing on this place that isn't an Eastern Orthodox view of the Balkans that I didn't put here. Sssooo much more to tell! ------------- |
Posted By: Heraclius
Date Posted: 31-Dec-2005 at 19:52
|
I don't mind you posting on Bosnia or infact any topic you want as much as you want aslong as it's of good quality which your posts always are. I have to say I commend you on having such in-depth knowledge on your country and the regions surrounding it. Alot of people tend to come on here and are very patriotic and ramble on constantly about how amazing their country is and how superior it is to everywhere else etc. Posts filled with nationalistic points of view and propaganda. That is entirely different from what your doing as far as I can see, so no problem with it I'm sure more people are sick of me talking about Byzantium every opportunity I get ------------- A tomb now suffices him for whom the world was not enough. |
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 31-Dec-2005 at 19:52
|
By the way, Spartakus: here's the border in that region. The second largest canyon in the world, actually. Only the Grand Canyon in America is deeper.  ------------- |
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 31-Dec-2005 at 19:53
Aww, thanks. I know I'm patriotic, probably nationalist - but I try to build it up with facts and not just ramble. ------------- |
Posted By: Herschel
Date Posted: 31-Dec-2005 at 21:01
I think you misunderstand me. I LIKE your topics more than most, because they are extremely informative, and I can tell you put a lot of effort into them. You add pictures, you have nice layouts, and I can tell when you're moving from one point to the next. I don't know where this contempt and disrespect came from. I made no mention of hate, so I don't know how "contempt" could have been included in that sentence. And there was one thread where you said something to the effect of "Islam: the Bosian way" then you posted many pictures of hot Bosnian women. I thought that was very cool. Again, I think you misunderstood me, but if you did take offense, I apologize. |
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 31-Dec-2005 at 21:07
Well, I've grown so used to swallowing my own feet that I don't even notice anymore. I'm so sorry, Herschel, I completely misunderstood. I thought you were - what do you call it in this sense? Critiqing me? - in a rude way and I just don't like being talked down to. I often think the worst possible understanding of any situation is the right one and I completely misunderstood. I truly apologize. I'm sorry - and I was wrong. An ordinary woman says any of those three things very rarely - and a woman like me even less, so please know it's sincere.  ------------- |
Posted By: Constantine XI
Date Posted: 31-Dec-2005 at 22:19
Aw group hug  I'm glad you two sorted this out in a civilized way while i was bring in the New Year in the far east of the world. Anyway, I was under the impression that there would have been sizable missionary activity in Bosnia by Orthodox monks. During the reign of Basil II the Byzantine Empire actually managed to achieve direct sovereignty over Bosnia/Herzegovina. During that period especially we could have expected to see a sizeable presence of Orthodox clergymen and monks. ------------- |
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 01-Jan-2006 at 00:03
There's no evidence of this at all. The oldest Eastern Orthodox religious buildings in Bosnia and Herzegovina are all from the reign of the Kotromanic dynasty, not a single building - nor legend of or evidence of a building - predates this era. In the heart of Bosnia, there were several significant migrations of Serbs. The first occured before the Serbian identity had developed so it's pointless to even talk about. (It's like saying Serbs settled the Balkans instead of saying Slavs settled the Balkans. The Slavs who arrived here certainly had not developed either Serbian, Croatian, or Bosnian national identities. Some who believe otherwise actually claim all Slavs were Serbs, or Croats, depending on their national allegiance.) The mass migration of Serbs away from Kosovo affected this area slightly, though most of these Serbs settled in what is now northern Serbia and Vojvodina. During the years of Yugoslavia there was a massive movement of Serbs into Bosnia and Herzegovina. I forget the statistics, but I believe it's well over 50 per cent of the overall Serbian population in this country. Only Montenegro experienced more "immigration" during this era, in their case Kosovar Albanians. Most of Bosnia's cities count Orthodox Churches and Jewish Synagogues as their most recent religious buildings. Sarajevo's oldest Orthodox church, for example, was built at the same time as was the Gazi Husrev-bey's Mosque; but Sarajevo is a new city. Tuzla (6000 years inhabited) and Jajce (1000 years inhabited) both have no Orthodox church older than 1800. All but one church in Banja Luka, now the largest Serbian-populated city in Bosnia and Herzegovina, were built after 1900. Bosnia simply wasn't influenced by the Eastern Orthodox Church in any dramatic sense. Surely it influenced those Eastern Orthodox Christians who came under the rule of the country, or moved here - and who until recently contributed positively to its development - but to say it influenced the country as a whole is simply wrong. Bosnia and Herzegovina was overwhelmingly Roman Catholic and linked with Croatia. Then it developed a church of its own and a national consciousness unique to its territory. Finally it associated itself with Islam and the Ottoman Empire. Nowhere, from start to finish, was it an Eastern Orthodox country and certainly nowhere was an acknowledged part of Serbia whose people referred to themselves as Serbs. ------------- |
Posted By: Constantine XI
Date Posted: 01-Jan-2006 at 00:35
|
Fair enough, I don't know that much about Bosnia & Herzegovina.
Considering the Papacy and Constinopolitan Patriarchate were competing
over areas such as Moravia, Bulgaria, Serbia and Russia I thought it
may have been possible the Byzantine Emperors tried to also influence
Bosnia & Herzegovina with some sort of missionary activity. ------------- |
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 01-Jan-2006 at 00:44
|
Oh I'm sure they tried. You'd never find any record that Bosnia and
Herzegovina has Jehovah's Witnesses - but we do. I've yelled at three
or four myself. As for Constantine, he did come here. He wrote a record of the villages in the Miljacka River valley, among other things. And he did call us Serbs - but, at the same time, the Pope called us Croats. Tomislav Raukar noted in "Bosnian Borders" that while there are numerous references to Bosnia being either Croatian or Serbian, and populated by either Croats or Serbs, none - none - came from Bosnia or its people. They were all composed by outsiders with obvious interests in choosing the term they did. They (Orthodox missionaries) were certainly not as organized as were the Franciscans - who have left a wealth of heritage and historical evidence in Bosnia and Herzegovina of their work. There's nothing to show they were even here, the monks you mention - still, though, I'd bet they were in isolation. Today there are a lot of missionaries in Bosnia and Herzegovina but the response has not been entirely positive. I believe they've gotten 1,700 converts - all in total. Most of these, of course, were athiest children of communist families - a small percentage were practicing Muslims, Catholics, or Eastern Orthodox Christians. ------------- |
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 01-Jan-2006 at 00:54
|
Okay, a question for you all... I've read many times in history books that Bosnian Muslims practice such a relaxed, western interpretation of Islam because they've lived among Christians for centuries. I disagree. Bosnians were largely indifferent to formal religion long before the Ottoman Empire arrived and the Christians who we lived among were far from "relaxed and Western". If anything - given the situation in the centuries leading to Bosnians en masse conversion to Islam and the centuries immediately following it - I'd expect their influence would have been one to radicalize the Bosnian population (as we've seen following the 1992-1995 war). I believe Bosniaks are largely as relaxed and tolerant as most regions of the Ottoman Empire were; the only difference is that we've managed to maintain it - and other areas, like Turkey, have maintained it almost as much, and still others, like Albania, are even more relaxed and western in their practice. Because we're white and European, Eurocentric historians are more open to noticing here what existed far beyond Europe for many centuries. So I disagree with this sentement of this affect of Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy, what do you think? ------------- |
Posted By: Heraclius
Date Posted: 01-Jan-2006 at 00:56
|
Random point, but wasnt Constantine the Great born in Nis/Naissus in modern day Serbia? stones throw from Bosnia. Sorry its 5:53am and i'm still awake for some reason, I tend to throw in random things this late ------------- A tomb now suffices him for whom the world was not enough. |
Posted By: Constantine XI
Date Posted: 01-Jan-2006 at 01:36
How dare you be on the computer at this time on this day! You are 18, get out there like any respectable Englishman, get riotously drunk and chase some wenches. DO IT!  ------------- |
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 01-Jan-2006 at 01:38
|
Don't you mean chase some Lebanese-looking wenches? Sorry God. ------------- |
Posted By: Constantine XI
Date Posted: 01-Jan-2006 at 01:43
Sorry, I don't quite understand...... ------------- |
Posted By: Heraclius
Date Posted: 01-Jan-2006 at 01:44
*clear throat* I'll have you know i'm 19 now my aussie matey w00t me! Happy belated birthday me! Why oh why am i still awake?!??! anybody know the answer? I dont. Bahahaha. Oh bloody hell im talking total crap now. ------------- A tomb now suffices him for whom the world was not enough. |
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 01-Jan-2006 at 01:45
|
Congratulations, it means you're a normal person with a politically correct sense of humor. I raise my glass to you! ------------- |
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 01-Jan-2006 at 01:45
Happy belated birthday! ------------- |
Posted By: Constantine XI
Date Posted: 01-Jan-2006 at 01:48
Cheers! *raises own glass to Mila and makes clinking sound* Drink up! ------------- |
Posted By: Constantine XI
Date Posted: 01-Jan-2006 at 01:52
LOL, I'm sorry mate I'm still scatterbrained from partying from 10PM til 8AM this morning. It's incredible, I can write a detailed description of ANZAC jungle warfare and my RTW BI campaigns and yet my simple arithmetic is failing me hehe. Phew, I'm off to another party in just 4 hours, my body is going to be punishing me later I just know it. Oh and before I forget, cheers to you also my fellow Byzantine Emperor and Happy birthday for November! *raises glass*. ------------- |
Posted By: Heraclius
Date Posted: 01-Jan-2006 at 01:59
|
Sounds like were all going to be drunk with all these raised glasses, shame I don't drink eh? ............... *raises cup of tea* to my fellow Basileus, I'm sorry but thats just my thing, tea Thanks to both of you, much appreciated
------------- A tomb now suffices him for whom the world was not enough. |
Posted By: Constantine XI
Date Posted: 01-Jan-2006 at 02:19
Well now that we are all liberally drunk (I slipped some vodka into Heraclius's tea while he wasn't looking  ) it's time to answer Mila's question.I agree that is was not the influence of Christianity but most likely the socio-political factors which were more important in the religious attitude of Bosnian Muslims. The area has been unusually subject to a number of different religions to choose from. But more important is probably the history of the region. Let us not forget the area was under Communist rule from the end of WWII until only a decade ago, which would have helped supress fundamentalism while giving Bosnians an appreciation of everyone's right to worship inspite of the yoke of atheist supression. The geography is also important. Bosnia has always existed on the periphery of main power centres. Influenced by Rome, but never very close to it. Influenced by Byzantium, but never very close to it. Influenced by the Ottomans, but again a distant province. The area has a great deal of rugged country which makes it difficult to access from these power centres. Therefore, it seems to me more likely that fundamentalism and extremism promoted by the central governments would have extreme difficulty influencing the area all that much. Bosnia was never that much affected by the Byzantine war with Islam, with the Crusades or other long drawn out conflicts which leaves whole nations embittered and on edge for generations. Inspite of the recent conflict, which has had some effects of traumatising the population and leaving people uneasy, the longer term history has not been so especially bad. Well from my limited knowledge, that's as much as I can understand of the situation. ------------- |
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 01-Jan-2006 at 02:36
|
I'd agree - but the influence thing is a bit misleading. You couldn't use the same word for all three empires. Rome virtually destroyed pre-Roman Bosnia and Herzegovina, not that there was much to destroy. But they did beat down all the pagan
Slavic and (adopted from the) Illyrian ways of life Bosnians practiced.Permanant settlements were established, roads built, bridges built, Roman Catholicism introduced. For a while Rome's rule here was very strong, through local satellite leaders. But eventually Bosnians took what Rome gave and made it their own. Like the family who's given a nice, new home and tears up the patio for firewood and parks their cars on the manicured front lawn. Medieval Bosnia and Herzegovina developed, the independent Bosnian church. And Bosnia evolved from this Roman base until the Ottoman invasion. The Ottomans then all but erased Roman Bosnia and Herzegovina. While sustinence and defense were the main purposes of life during the Roman era, trade and fortification became the main purposes of life during the Ottoman time. Farming villages were built up with Carsijas, or marketplaces. The culture changed, became more Eastern, more relaxed. An urban culture developed, something Bosnia and Herzegovina had never really known. Islam was introduced, and became dominant, accounting for more than 80% of Bosnians at several points during the Empire's reign here. During the Ottoman Empire we evolved and made it our own - so much so that we rebelled against Ottoman rule. We had weird influences from Sufi Islam and - oddly - Buddhism. Then we had our Roman Catholic base and the greater immigration of Eastern Orthodox Christians (which began, slowly, during the later years of the Bosnian kingdom), bringing Byzantine influence. Then the Austro-Hungarians came, another Roman Catholic empire. Roman Catholicism in Bosnia and Herzegovina exploded in a revival of its roots. Churches went up and even though the Austrians were very respectful of Bosnia's Islamic character, the Roman Catholic population, through re-conversion, more than doubled. The Austrians imposed a European sternness on the haphazard Ottoman look and lifestyle of Bosnia and Herzegovina. We broke away from that and ended up communist. And communism is the best way to really f--k a country up. Then we tore the s--t out of each other and today - whether Muslim, Roman Catholic, or Eastern Orthodox - we all sit in cafes drinking Turkish coffee, in Ottoman-style carsijas, in cities with Austrian buildings and Roman ruins, and call it all either Serbian, Bosnian, or Croatian. ------------- |