Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy

Edited by Mila

Slavonia, Bosnia, Dalmatia and other areas of Croatia that later claimed their independence were never the acknowledged subjects of the Byzantine Empire.

Portions of southeast Bosnia and Herzegovina were part of the Byzantine Empire but these are the same regions mentioned above as having been incorporated into the country only during the Kotromanic dynasty.

There are competing claims as to who was actually in control of this region and both the Roman and Byzantine empires made unrealistic claims that we know were not accurate. The Romans, for example, claimed to have conquered Kotorac (near Sarajevo) - a fortified village that we now know had vanished from existence long before Rome ever entered this region.

What we do know is the Roman Empire had and maintained a level on control here. Our churches were western, our roads went west, our taxes went west, and even Serbian history books acknowledge Bosnians were never the "acknowledged subjects" of the Byzantine Empire - whatever that means.

Did they say they owned us, yes. Did they, probably. Did the people living here at the time even know, probably not.

The border between Bosnia and Serbia was one of the strongest, most strictly defined in the Balkans. It changed hardly at all throughout the centuries because of the inhospitable terrain in the area, especially along the Drina and Tara rivers.

Even when this area was part of the Ottoman province of Bosnia, which included a vast area of modern-day Serbia and Montenegro:



You see the penis-shaped appendage on the eastern flank of the province? This is the Sandzak. It was awarded to Serbia and Montenegro in 1912 but had, and to this day has, a population that is overwhemingly Muslim. Until 1992, the area of Bosnia and Herzegovina proper just across the border from the Sandzak was the most densely Muslim region of this country as well, the Podrinje.

Even when both sides of the border were Islamic, with very close cultural ties (The capitals of Sandzak and Bosnia were both founded by the same man) there was very little interaction because of the border. No roads, no ships, nothing but a few foot trails. It's more or less the same today and nothing like the Bosnia and Herzegovina proper, which is criss-crossed by old Roman roads heading everywhere.

That border is a brick wall and the Byzantine's never controled anything, in any real sense, beyond it.


Edited by Mila

Originally posted by Mila Originally posted by Herschel Another thread by Mila, another thread pertaining to Bosnia. Thanks for the post, I actually found it interesting. Next time, please post more pictures of Bosnian woman as you have in your other threads. No man should speak to a woman with such contempt and disrespect. If you have a problem with threads about Bosnia, don't participate in them. At least I'm posting something.

 Lets not have you two arguing here if you wouldn't mind, these kind of things have a habit of getting very personal very quickly. I'm sure you can both co-exist.

 Originally I to objected to the number of Bosnia related threads, however 1, like Mila said atleast she is posting something 2, they do actually tend to be very interesting and informative on a part of the world I was until recently rather unfamiliar with.

Edited by Heraclius

 

 I don't mind you posting on Bosnia or infact any topic you want as much as you want aslong as it's of good quality which your posts always are. I have to say I commend you on having such in-depth knowledge on your country and the regions surrounding it.

 Alot of people tend to come on here and are very patriotic and ramble on constantly about how amazing their country is and how superior it is to everywhere else etc. Posts filled with nationalistic points of view and propaganda. That is entirely different from what your doing as far as I can see, so no problem with it .

 I'm sure more people are sick of me talking about Byzantium every opportunity I get  then there are about your Bosnia related posts.

Edited by Heraclius

Originally posted by Heraclius    I don't mind you posting on Bosnia or infact any topic you want as much as you want aslong as it's of good quality which your posts always are.  Alot of people tend to come on here and are very patriotic and ramble on constantly about how amazing their country is and how superior it is to everywhere else etc. Posts filled with nationalistic points of view and propaganda. That is entirely different from what your doing as far as I can see, so no problem with it .  I'm sure more people are sick of me talking about Byzantium every opportunity I get  then there are about your Bosnia related posts.

Aww, thanks. I know I'm patriotic, probably nationalist - but I try to build it up with facts and not just ramble.

Originally posted by Herschel Originally posted by Mila Originally posted by Herschel Another thread by Mila, another thread pertaining to Bosnia. Thanks for the post, I actually found it interesting. Next time, please post more pictures of Bosnian woman as you have in your other threads. No man should speak to a woman with such contempt and disrespect. If you have a problem with threads about Bosnia, don't participate in them. At least I'm posting something. I think you misunderstand me. I LIKE your topics more than most, because they are extremely informative, and I can tell you put a lot of effort into them. You add pictures, you have nice layouts, and I can tell when you're moving from one point to the next. I don't know where this contempt and disrespect came from. I made no mention of hate, so I don't know how "contempt" could have been included in that sentence. And there was one thread where you said something to the effect of "Islam: the Bosian way" then you posted many pictures of hot Bosnian women. I thought that was very cool. Again, I think you misunderstood me, but if you did take offense, I apologize.

Well, I've grown so used to swallowing my own feet that I don't even notice anymore.

I'm so sorry, Herschel, I completely misunderstood. I thought you were - what do you call it in this sense? Critiqing me? - in a rude way and I just don't like being talked down to. I often think the worst possible understanding of any situation is the right one and I completely misunderstood.

I truly apologize. I'm sorry - and I was wrong.

An ordinary woman says any of those three things very rarely - and a woman like me even less, so please know it's sincere.

Originally posted by Constantine XI Anyway, I was under the impression that there would have been sizable missionary activity in Bosnia by Orthodox monks. During the reign of Basil II the Byzantine Empire actually managed to achieve direct sovereignty over Bosnia/Herzegovina. During that period especially we could have expected to see a sizeable presence of Orthodox clergymen and monks.

There's no evidence of this at all.

The oldest Eastern Orthodox religious buildings in Bosnia and Herzegovina are all from the reign of the Kotromanic dynasty, not a single building - nor legend of or evidence of a building - predates this era.

In the heart of Bosnia, there were several significant migrations of Serbs. The first occured before the Serbian identity had developed so it's pointless to even talk about. (It's like saying Serbs settled the Balkans instead of saying Slavs settled the Balkans. The Slavs who arrived here certainly had not developed either Serbian, Croatian, or Bosnian national identities. Some who believe otherwise actually claim all Slavs were Serbs, or Croats, depending on their national allegiance.) The mass migration of Serbs away from Kosovo affected this area slightly, though most of these Serbs settled in what is now northern Serbia and Vojvodina. During the years of Yugoslavia there was a massive movement of Serbs into Bosnia and Herzegovina. I forget the statistics, but I believe it's well over 50 per cent of the overall Serbian population in this country. Only Montenegro experienced more "immigration" during this era, in their case Kosovar Albanians.

Most of Bosnia's cities count Orthodox Churches and Jewish Synagogues as their most recent religious buildings. Sarajevo's oldest Orthodox church, for example, was built at the same time as was the Gazi Husrev-bey's Mosque; but Sarajevo is a new city. Tuzla (6000 years inhabited) and Jajce (1000 years inhabited) both have no Orthodox church older than 1800. All but one church in Banja Luka, now the largest Serbian-populated city in Bosnia and Herzegovina, were built after 1900.

Bosnia simply wasn't influenced by the Eastern Orthodox Church in any dramatic sense. Surely it influenced those Eastern Orthodox Christians who came under the rule of the country, or moved here - and who until recently contributed positively to its development - but to say it influenced the country as a whole is simply wrong.

Bosnia and Herzegovina was overwhelmingly Roman Catholic and linked with Croatia. Then it developed a church of its own and a national consciousness unique to its territory. Finally it associated itself with Islam and the Ottoman Empire.

Nowhere, from start to finish, was it an Eastern Orthodox country and certainly nowhere was an acknowledged part of Serbia whose people referred to themselves as Serbs.

Oh I'm sure they tried. You'd never find any record that Bosnia and Herzegovina has Jehovah's Witnesses - but we do. I've yelled at three or four myself.

As for Constantine, he did come here. He wrote a record of the villages in the Miljacka River valley, among other things. And he did call us Serbs - but, at the same time, the Pope called us Croats.

Tomislav Raukar noted in "Bosnian Borders" that while there are numerous references to Bosnia being either Croatian or Serbian, and populated by either Croats or Serbs, none - none - came from Bosnia or its people. They were all composed by outsiders with obvious interests in choosing the term they did.

They (Orthodox missionaries) were certainly not as organized as were the Franciscans - who have left a wealth of heritage and historical evidence in Bosnia and Herzegovina of their work. There's nothing to show they were even here, the monks you mention - still, though, I'd bet they were in isolation.

Today there are a lot of missionaries in Bosnia and Herzegovina but the response has not been entirely positive. I believe they've gotten 1,700 converts - all in total. Most of these, of course, were athiest children of communist families - a small percentage were practicing Muslims, Catholics, or Eastern Orthodox Christians.