In a rash act of supreme subjectivity, I decide to compose a ranking of European nations that, throughout history, have graced the 'ultimate' civilisation of the known world. There are 7 ranks and in each rank,  the more important contributors are followed by the lesser ones:

1st: Greece, Italy, France, Germany. (Decisive)

2nd: England, Russia, Spain, Autria, Poland. (Significant)

3rd: Portugal, The Netherland, Sweden, Hungary, Czech-Bohemia, Ireland, Denmark. (Important)

4th: Scotland, Swizerland, Ukraina, Lithuania. (Quite important)

5th: Belgium, Norway, Finland, Romania, Slovakia, Serbia, Bulgary, Armenia, Croatia, Albania. (Somewhat important)

6th: Luxembourg, Cyprus, Geogia, Slovenia, Macedonia, Latvia, Malta, Bosnia, Estonia, Wales. (Diversity is fun)

7th: Monaco, Liechstentein, San Marino, Turkey, Andora. (Excuse me???)

Did I forget anyone?

I must admit i did not cautch the last one.

As far as i see, it looks like this:

*****ancient Greeks wherever they were, Italy

****  Germany, France, England, Spain, Netherlands

***    Austria, Russia, Poland, Bohemia (Czech), Sweden, Hungary,  Denmark, Turkey, Scotland, Portugal

the rest

** and *

Good points.

I agree, altough some regions had bigger influence than other.

Sry,but some times i cannot catch a thing in English.....Well,theology and philosophy have their differences but aren't they both focusing in human spirit and soul?

They mean Ottoman Empire by Turkey, I think.

And Ottoman Empire contributed too much to European civilization. Yes, they were highly influenced with the Byzanthine civilization, but they influenced them more then they were influenced by them...

Don't forget the portuguese also invented globalization .

Doh, dont forget about us Poles. We had a lot to say in philosophy about equality,republic and liberty long before philosophers in western europe started to think about it. Take for example Modrevius who was one of the first european philosophers writing about liberty and equality and in the 16th century was well known in whole europe. His book: "De Republica Emendanda" was a first real political work which fully described how the republican system should work. And this first work about republic had nothing to do with british parliamentarism.

Andrzej Frycz Modrzewski

Andrzej Frycz Modrzewski

Andrzej Frycz Modrzewski (Andreus Fricius Modrevius) (ca. 1503-1572) was a Polish Renaissance scholar, humanist and theologian.

He was of the lower gentry and held a heritable title as the village head of Wolbórz. After graduating from the Jagiellonian University he was ordained as a vicar and served under archbishop Jan Ùaski (the Elder), and later under the bishop of Poznan, Jan Latalski. From 1530 he was connected to the court of Jan Ùaski the Younger, the Polish Primate and nephew of the elder Laski. Having lived for a time in Germany, he met Martin Luther and other early Protestant reformers, and also took care of the library of Erasmus.

He returned to Poland in 1541, and became an official at the court of Sigmundus Augustus in 1547. Since 1553 he retired to his native Wolbórz, but since he was leaning strongly towards the reformist (especially Calvinian and Arian) circles he was in danger of being accused of heresy and stripped of his ecclesiastical titles and offices. The king, however, issued a letter of protection for him.

His works: Lascius, Or On The Penalty For Manslaughter (1543, in Latin); The Discourse Of A Truthful Peripatethic (1545); On The Improvement Of The Commonwealth (1554, in Latin, first printed in Basel); Silve Quator (1590, posthumously).

He criticized the ban on land-owning by non-nobles, was in favour of sending a mixed (ecclesiatical and secular) delegation to the Tridentine Council, postulated equality of all citizens before law, a strong central monarchy, secularizing education and improving the lot of the peasant class.

He was a supporter of irenism and the democratical and ecumenical element in the Church.

Retrieved from " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrzej_Frycz_Modrzewski - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrzej_Frycz_Modrzewski "

Styrbjorn said that:

"The modern form of democracy mostly spread by the British parliamentarism derives from old Germanic social culture and the Englightenment"

So i just prooved that there were people writing about such things long before enlightement and that it wasnt connected with biritish parliamentarism or "old germanic social culture" but based on the experiences of polish parliamentarism.

Originally posted by Cywr British Parliamentarianism goes back alot further than the enlightenment. And he is talking specificly about a particular model, namely, British Parliamentarianism, not Poland, in reponse to a Greek forumer, so you havn't added anything there

I just stressed that parliamentarism, liberty and equality wasnt somthing that was invented by the german, french or british philosophers and that idea of the strong parliamentary republic was fully described with details in other part of Europe. And that is why the works of Modrevius were in the 16th century well known in the whole europe. Notice the fact the first it was published in Basel and later almost everywhere. His works were being only discussed that time but his ideas came back in the times of enlightement.

British parliamentarism begins in 1215 but none of the british philosophers cared to describe the idea of republic. "Utopia" (forgive me for shorting the title) of Morus was rather some kind of SF book. Erasmus was more concenrned about religion so i wouldnt call Modrevius just a follower of Erasmus.Whats more, for long time many of the English kings (especially Tudors) didnt care to ask parliament for opinion or were doing it only when were sure that parliament will support them. About british parliamentarism in modern meaning of this notion we can talk since the end of Cromwell.

And parliaments were common in the whole feudal Europe but most of them didnt survive the times when kings started to centralise their power. Unlike in Poland where since the end of 14th century parliament was strenghtening its position.

You also cant compare the cities-republics in Italy with national or feudal states. In fact in most of european countries cities were more or less independent from the feudal king and republican, had their own administration, law, courts, armies.

And affcourse i dont imply that Modrevius is the root of all thoughts. I just said that he was first philosopher in the early modern Europe who wrote book which completelly described republican system.

Also humanitarism in the times of enlightement wanted to make one criminal law for all the people while Modrevius was writing about it in the 16th century. And forgive me but if it was revolutionary in the 18th century it was even more revolutionary in the 16th century.

Hey i would put England in the place of Greece. Greece belong to a lower category and it's contribution is overrated. Italy, France, England and Germany definitely on top.

Concerning the Hellenic influence in Europe,taking only Ancient Hellas is wrong.There is also the Hellenic influence through the Byzantine empire,or if you like the Byzantine-Hellenic-Christian influence which is as significant as the influence of Ancient Hellas.

In my opinion theres is no such thing that european civilization. If we want to sort countries by civilizations by any means then the typoligy of Huntington is much more correct.

I would say in architecture the big 3 are:

1. Italy above the others

2 and 3: France and Germany, on the same equal position.

Altough the most influential were Italians.

Although the massive contributions of Italy in architecture should be acknowledge it cannot be over France , England or Germany

the same in whole Europe, first gothic, later reneisance, baroque, clasicism

Why cannot? Italian architects were building castles, townhalls, palaces, churches as Europe long and wide, from Poland in the east to Britain in the west, i guess from Italy in the sought to Scandinavia in the north.

Even the townhall in my city was built by Italian architect in the 15th century, his name was Giovani Babtisto Quadro.

So you didnt have reneisance in Sweden?

That is probably why the best pieces of art in swedish museums are goods stolen by the Swedes in Poland in 17th century.

Originally posted by Styrbiorn Originally posted by Mosquito So you didnt have reneisance in Sweden? No. That is probably why the best pieces of art in swedish museums are goods stolen by the Swedes in Poland in 17th century. Trollish attempts don't deserve answers.

with all the respect Styrbiorn but this is truth. After the peace treaty in Oliva 1660 you were obliged to give all the loot back. You were sending ships full of arts to Sweden.

Well, you are right bro. Sorry for that. Pls accept my apology.

So i correct my opinion: from Italy in the sought to Poland in the north.

This is reneisance townhall from the 16th century which Giovanii Battista Quadro, an italian architect built in my city. Since that time it is the place where city council is debating. The black pillory in the front of building, on the left side, with the statue on top, is the place where criminals were being punished but unfortunatelly it is not used anymore.

The renaissance is only a relative term, the dark age was a rather a mythology many beautiful building was built outside during the dark age. further Italian arcitecture started to lose ground by 1600+, and was replaced by french and german architectural model.

 Ok I'll post the evolution of french architecture, some other people can post the evolution of germans, Italians and english architecture as well as Spanish.

Gothic

 sainte-Chapelle Gothic built in 1246

Renaissance is a very inaccurate term, but the so called renaissance architecture spread from Italy to France. Italian influence but french architecture and touch overhall.

Fontainebleau

Rococo

Nineteenth century

Ecole des beaux-arts

Eiffel Tower

Modern

Defense Paris

Thank you for all your fervent responses! I think I myself should put forth some reasons for introducing such an outrageous ranking (even supreme subjectivity need to be reasonable!):

-First, I have a very simple (and hopefully effective) definition of civilisation: That is the combination of the way a group (in a rather large context) of human beings do, organize, and create things (culture) and its manifestations (arts, technology, spirituality-ies). The manifestations could be called as achievements and used in comparison with other kinds of civilisation. As humans usually judge an individual by his achievements, so did I, a simple cultural student, weigh up and down each European nation's achievements, their relations to our civilisation and pass a JUDGMENT (a most insolent act, I presume!).

-The using of 'countries' is very relative. All the countries listed have a core nation, which has invented or made, developed and preserved its achievements (some have several core nations). Therefore, Vatican was excluded. I aslo paid attention to Profession and Loyalty, and the changing of Geography in history.

-Now to the choice of ranking, in a very crupulous act, I stated that the choice is supremely subjective. But in some countries, I would like to express why I put them to this and that.

+ I start with Greece. The (ancient) Greek spirit is the very force that distinct European outlook with that of other civilisations (some of you will surely hate that repeated-again-and-again phrase but I dont know the other). The long dead Greeks did perfectly theorize ideals such as citizen freedom, creative individualism, demo-something with which we, Europeans, identify fervently while the East Asians, for examply, even on the same level of technology, would gleefully mock them. We owe the ancient Greeks our spiritual and intelletual freedom (the Renaissance and Enlightenment movements were just the sophistication, nay, the adaptation of them to certain societies). Therefore it would be ungrateful to deny them the first place. (I wouldn't care a damned thing about the modern ones).

-England as always is a grotesque over-evaluation. I loathe the fact that I am writing in English. That English is now a most trendy tongue owe less to English grandious literature that to American banking cheque lists. Except uber-talented ones like Byron or Joseph Konrad (who was, sadly, a Pole), the rest of English writing stars enchant their readers no more than any great authors of an unfortunate provincial country like Belorussia or Slovenie. English classical music is nearly a desert, yielding meagre fruits like Sir Edward Edgar (whose only Salute d'amour and the Cello concerto are listenable, and the English put him on the £20 note!) and, more recently, Andrew Lloyd Weber. You talk about English architechture, I know nothing of it. All the so-called Tudor, Stuart, Geogian, Victorian style...et cetera were directly and unashamedly borrowed from the Continent (though I have to confess, there are some damned good English imitators). Great Britain was great due more to the Celtic factor than to that of the Anglo-Saxons. I think I have to stop hair-splitting process here and my conclusion is THE ENGLISH CREATE NOTHING OF THEIR OWN and THEY ARE GREAT and LUCKY BORROWERS (or stealers, sort of). The 2nd rank is a VERY benevolent condescendence on my part.

-Again the Turkish question. Sorry for my shocking ignorance, but could someone please tell me the contributions of modern Turkey to Europe? Hosting the Final Champion League 2005 (there are lots of complaints already)? And what about the the old one, namely, the Ottoman empire which nearly brought Europe to its typical Turkist Despostism (no guaranteed Enlightened Despostism here)?. The Turks already have an excellent civilisation of their own, the desperate bid to become Europeans by right of beggars (not by right of conquest) must have humiliated their warlike ancestors deeply.

-Now the painful Polish question. Some people may wonder why I put Poland so high (well, in my opinion, I put her a little too low). As a student of Polish culture and European culture (I am neither Polish by birth, nor by adoption, I have never visited Poland!), I assume that I am in better position to appraise Poland in the context of Europe (how insolent!) than some French-based or Britain-based scholars here. This is simply one of the most complicated countries to evaluate in Europe. Most people know nothing about Poland, and easily discard her as a third-rate second-class country (how wonderful that this very phrase frequently used in books on Poland by non-Polish authors is now employed by me!). But just know a little more, a world of wonderful things will happen, and you suddenly aware that this antiquated, idealistically outdated nation has made more than her share to Europe. Dont count specially on architechture or something tangible since those things were either destroyed or of German origin. Great and true Polish achievements come from the realm of the intangible- ideals or dreams. Polish literature is huge and the like of Mickiewicz or Sienkiewicz could match the best of the English (including Josef Konrad Korzeniowski!). Chopin, Oginski, Szymanowski should beat the craps out of Edgar or Lloyd Weber. Paderewski and Artur Rubinstein are among the greatest pianists. The epoch-making personalities like Marie Sklodowska or Karol Josef Wojtila are abound. And such a huge pond of great talents comes from a huger pond of poverty and privation. I am frequently amazed by Polish talents as I am by the Poles' gallantry. Any way, mind you, they are 40 million souls, not a small lot.

-The ranking is not aimed to glorify somebody or humiliate some others. As easily observed, with only exception of Greece and Turkey (and Russia), more populous countries always occupy more previleged positions and vice versa. That suggests very nicely that there is no diffirence between individuals of different countries at all. Number counts! That is the fact!

Thank you Lohendrin for you kind words but we Poles dont try to overrate our share of influence on the european civilisation.

As for the architecture we were rather following the patterns which were coming from Italy, Germany and France. We didnt have such great sculptors like Michele Angelo or painters like Diego Velazques. Altough we have some achievements on the field of philosophy, science or literature many of our greatest writers are not understable for the foreigners. Especially when it comes to romantism, which had in Poland completelly different colour than in other coutries. Even eastern neighbours of Poland werent much influenced (except for Lithuania) by Polish culture because Poles treated Russians and Ukrainians moreless in the same way in which spanish, french or english were treating the natives in their colonies, what in 20th century resulted in the slaughter of polish population in that region. Eastern Slavs instead of adopting somthing of polish culture were rather tryting to resist everything what was polish and were hostile to everything what was coming from Poland. This is  something what even Bismarck said in one of his speeches in Reichstag.

Poland for sure had interesting and multinational culture, which was built not only by the Poles but also by countless immigrants from the western Europe, begining from german settlers, trough jews, dutch merchants, italian artists, french hugenots, english and scottish catholics, foreign mercenaries who were reciving polish nobility in reward for their long service in the army of commonwealth and many others. People like Jan Zamoyski were building cities (eg. Zamosc) wich were projected by the best italian architects, being in the same time dressed in traditional polish - influenced by ottomans - dress, which was considered in the west as barbaric. Palaces which were from outside looking like Versailles, inside were looking like the ottoman residences decorated also with the pictures painted by the best european artists. For centuries Poland was a place where were meeting eastern and western influences what was bringing often very interesting results. Just like Greek-Catholic Church was a religious result of such crossed influences on polish ruled Ukraine.

Polish nobles, the biggest such class in Europe which made over 10% of polish-lithuanian society was making Poland look even more strange than anything else. With their democracy and complete contempt for other people including foreign nobles, who were by some of them considered as dogs, with their contempt for kings and monarchs, their selfconfidence was making Poland looking even more barbaric in the eyes of westerner. Remember the story written by Daniel Dafoe (author of Robinson Crusoe), about polish mercenary who murdered in England an english gentleman? He was sentenced for death and when the priest came before his execution, he dissmissed him saying that he is polish nobleman and as such dont need the priest because God will recognise him and welcome with respect (accident described in the Norman Davies "History of Poland"). Such behaviour of Poles abroad didnt bring them many friends. Some french philosophers like Voltaire were condemning polish political system, others like Rousseau were gloryfing it, but noone was following.

After personal union between Poland and Saxony king August killed lots of his rebel saxon nobles, telling them that maybe now Poland and Saxony are in union but Saxony is not Poland and he wont tollerate any rebelions.

So, i would say that Poland had its independent culture, customs and traditions but its influence on neighbours was rather limited.

The things has changed a bit in the 19th century when many Poles had to leave Poland and travel abroad to avoid death sentence or imprisoment or were not able to achieve anything in the occupied country.

Originally posted by tzar I think you forgot my country and we deserve more than 5-the group with Albania and so on...!  Bulgaria long time was a center of slavonic culture, Bulgarian language was international diplomatic language. We first wrote on Cyrillic and thanks to us it didn't stay as a good wish....!

Hail, Tzar! I didnt forget your glorious country. Bulgarians are as great writers, composers, builders as anyone else in Europe. The problem is they are not as many as 80 millions Teutons to make full impact. In Europe, NUMBER COUNTS, my friend! Cheer!

It is strange that a stranger like me try to advocate Polish culture (following the suit of Rousseau, Michelet and of course, Norman Davies) whereas a Pole himself is not so certain about the Greatness of his own country.

I totally agree when you said about the Polish imitation of foreign architectures. But as I have stated, true Polish culture inspires little through tangible things. All Polish monuments, edifices or paintings have little originality but are modelled after those of France, Italy or Germany. They may be huge, impressive yet express nothing but ostentatiousness and Westernized vanity. They reflect so acutely the situation of the Polish nobility-Szlatchta before the Partition, vain, pompous, inconsequential, grovelling after French grandeur.

But you are unfair when you accuse the Szlatchta of all the sins that deluged your country. They learn they mistakes very fast after sufferings and humiliations. And it was they, with the ones who shared their culture, that created the most glorious episode in Polish history, the 19^th century Polish Romanticism. It was they, humbled but unbeaten by oppression, sophisticated the modern Polish characteristics, that though benefited the Poles little but were deeply loved by them and many foreigners alike (including me): Utterly uncompromising and fearless before oppression, nobility in defeat, generosity in sharing blood with other oppressed people, in short, idealistic to the extreme and in the best meaning of the term. True, they did have many defects but that are romantic defects and could be forgiven. And their new means were, understandably, intangible: Music and literature (it was of great luck for Poland that she possessed a huge pool of nobility—10%, the only educated class in Central and Eastern Europe, therefore enjoyed more than minimal advantage over neighbouring countries where peasants were more dominant).

Mosquito (don’t know why you chose this blood-sucker name!), you made a mistake when you said that Polish literature litter affects neighbouring countries and thus have limited contribution to European civilisation. Everyone knows that Poles-Russians-Ukrainians hate the other as ferociously and all try to stay away from cultural influence from each other. Do you know any Pole who love the anti-Polish Dolstoievski or Turgeiev? Very few, so don’t lament if not a Ukrainian or Russian soul would care a damned thing about Sienkiwicz (the Ukrainians hate him intensely) or Mickiewicz. But that doesn’t mean that many outside the circle of your petty grudges don’t know and love those great writers’ works. True, if they write in English or French or on the subject of French society like Balzac, they would be much more popular. But mind you, popularity is not guarantee of greatness. I, born in Albuquerque, raised in Malaga and now studying in Cardiff, am always as enthralled by “With sword and fire” or “The Lighthousekeeper” or “Pharaon” as by works of Byron or Tolstoy. Polish literature is huge and very deep and, I have to confess, outclass Spanish one in every respect.

Nop....i dont think u forgot anyone....But instead u created one.... There is no recognised country in UN by the name of "Macedonia"....

If u r reffering to a specific area north of Greece , the correct name , by which is acceptable in UN , is FYROM....

So , please , be kind and correct it ...There is no need to create a political problem in a topic were there is none ....

Thank u.

Isk..

Sorry , i dissagree....Turks have no contribution in European civilisation...Instead of Turks , in the catalog should have been the Arabs with the wonderful monuments of art that they left in Spain...

Isk..

Sorry , but i dont think that it has anything to do with "superior" or inferior countries...or nations ...

It has to do with the cultural development of all countries and how these cultures influenced different countries...and in different levels..

Isk..

Sorry , but i think u make some injustice to Greeks , pointing out only the theoretical work that they have done. U seem to forget about Pythagoras , Archimedes , Heron the inventor of steam engine , and some hundreds of engineers doctors , Hippocrates , and others...

Isk..

Be nice, Greek one! It is you who start political problem here. FYROM is a humiliating title and If I were modern Macedonian, I would kindly reciprocate by calling you country Former Uniate Colony of Kurd-bashers--a.k.a. Young Ottoman Union. Hm sorry if it is a litter bitter.

Sorry, Arabs are not considered as a European nation (nor are they constricted into one country).

I apologize for my 'philistineness' shown towards 'technological things' but as I have stressed these are not the crucial factor that marks out European civilisation. East Asians at the same time of the ancient Greek achieved more or less equivalent natural scienctific progresses.

Originally posted by Mosquito Lohendrin you have shocked me. A Spanish, man from the opposite side of Europe, knowing so much about my country, its history and culture. And being fascinated by it.

Thank you for your not typical Polish humility. I remember once I recited a whole volumn of Michelet's French history to a Parisian girl and she still spat at me disdainfully.

Spaniard...History and politics were never a question of being "nice"but rather a question of being precise... FYROM , is the exact name of this technical nation. As for ur reciprocation , how far in the past can u go to find names ??  Why not Former Roman Colony ?? So forget it ...Keep it in the present. And IF u were a modern SLAV residing in the geographical area of Macedonia , you would have known your Slavic past and ur tailor made language...And here....i am NOT trying to add politics to a civilisation subject....I am just being accurate.

Bitter or not ...It is the reality..

I will reluctanty agree on that although if you were asking the same question while they were in Spain , u would have taken them into account too...But anyway...

Then u should have defined better the term "civilisation" .... But by mentioning churches and cathedrals and bridges , you obviously reffered to architects and civil engineers. Although i do respect the East Asians for their civilisation , you still learn in your schools the Pythagoras Theorem and the Archimedes Principle.....Of course Greeks were NOT the first .... they took , sciences , from a point and advanced them. After them came the Arabs to continue . This is how civilisation works....It is generally accepted that the burning of Bibliotheca Alexandrina , delayed the first Industrial Revolution , by almost 1500 years...And civilisation too....as we know it..

Isk..

Originally posted by Lohendrin Originally posted by tzar I think you forgot my country and we deserve more than 5-the group with Albania and so on...!  Bulgaria long time was a center of slavonic culture, Bulgarian language was international diplomatic language. We first wrote on Cyrillic and thanks to us it didn't stay as a good wish....! Hail, Tzar! I didnt forget your glorious country. Bulgarians are as great writers, composers, builders as anyone else in Europe. The problem is they are not as many as 80 millions Teutons to make full impact. In Europe, NUMBER COUNTS, my friend! Cheer!

And Greeks, Hungarians, Czechs, Polish...are 80 millions?!

To such ungrateful community members it would have been the best if we let a safe passage for arabs to crush them from both sides

And speaking in the same line of thoughts what has Europe given us??? Taking the side of the muslims against us  

So Iskenderani, if you wanted to move this discussion to such tone and level you got what you wanted.

Everyone knows that ancient Greeks were great people. But the fact that they were great doesnt mean that modern greeks are. You are only a little bit related with the Greeks who lived there 2000 years ago and you speak some kind of highly barbarised hellenic language. Judging after achievements of modern Greece its even harder to belive that you are somehow related with the ancient Greece. So better keep the ancient ruins in the good condition.

Bitter or not ...It is the reality..

Originally posted by Styrbiorn Originally posted by giani_82 And speaking in the same line of thoughts what has Europe given us??? Taking the side of the muslims against us   Cars, refridgerators, electricity, steel, machines, etc etc? Unless Bulgaria still lives in the 17th century that is, but I doubt that

You call that contribution  tis vicious polutes the planet, killed the free spirit of men

As u may see from my postings i didnt try to move the conversation nowhere...i just tried to be specific and accurate

But for the rest u are absolutely correct...Modern Greeks , are completely out of the question , although we managed , even so , to get 2 Nobel Prizes in litterature with Elytis and Ritsos...

U see Mosquito you were lucky . You did not pass almost 400 years as a nation just above the status of an animal , a reaya , under the boot of a conqueror , with different religion , different culture , who didnt leave a single worthy momument in all Balcans all the years they were the master race... We may have been great , but under these conditions we should have been magicians to become equals to any European in culture , or civilisation..By the way...we have the greatest number of scientists living in USA , as percentage of our population...But even this ....i dont count it...as a factor of progress.

As for the language we speak  it still has the same alphabet , as 2500 years before , and any child can read an epigraph on a stone , although probably it will not understand it...You see we have "modernized" our language.. as most people did ...

Also , for the ruins...we try , not our best , but we try to keep in good condition what were left to us....We have even started reviving the ancient Olympic Games , in their original place Olympia...We shall see...

Isk..