Would you say half of France was English under the Plantagenet?
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Topic: Would you say half of France was English under the Plantagenet?
Posted By: Exarchus
Subject: Would you say half of France was English under the Plantagenet?
Date Posted: 06-May-2005 at 04:54
Everything is in the title.
Would you consider the Plantagenet area (sometimes refered as Angevin Empire) in France was English?
Summary, France was a feudal Kingdom, with the King being loosely the
biggest leader and with tons of substates (acting independantly) known
as duchies and counties.
The Duchy of Normandy invaded England, and then the County of
Anjou (hence the name Angevin) invaded Normandy and so got
England with.
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Vae victis!
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Replies:
Posted By: Frederick Roger
Date Posted: 06-May-2005 at 11:38
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I would more probably consider England ruled by french than the Angevine posessions to be English. Do not forget that most kings of England were more influenced in culture, laguage, etc, by the norman french than the saxon English.
For instance, Lionheart was a rather unknown word at the time his bearer lived. Coeur-de-Lion was the correct form.
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Posted By: Paul
Date Posted: 06-May-2005 at 15:10
Originally posted by Frederick Roger
I would more probably consider England ruled by french than the Angevine posessions to be English. Do not forget that most kings of England were more influenced in culture, laguage, etc, by the norman french than the saxon English.
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But the Norman era preceded the Plantagenet one.
Plantagenet kings definately held sway over France at times, Henry II, Edward III and Henry VI but for the most part no.
With the exception of Henry II and Edward I no Plantagenet king could be considered absolute monarch of England.
The English system of government was very different to the rest of Europe. The king was head of a ruling council not an autocrat. Early Plantagenet kings had a problem with this and fought it.
Strong kings like Henry and Edward won but most like Edward II, Henry III, John ect were left humiliated and powerless. By the time of the later Plantagenets and Edward III they just accepted the power share.
Only 3 monarchs were to challege this, Charles I, James II and Richard II. One murdered, one executed and one exiled.
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Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 06-May-2005 at 15:31
short answer: no. long answer: see Frederick Rogers post above.
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Posted By: Exarchus
Date Posted: 06-May-2005 at 15:51
Originally posted by Paul
But the Norman era preceded the Plantagenet one.
Plantagenet kings definately held sway over France at times, Henry II, Edward III and Henry VI but for the most part no.
With the exception of Henry II and Edward I no Plantagenet king could be considered absolute monarch of England.
The English system of government was very different to the rest of
Europe. The king was head of a ruling council not an autocrat. Early
Plantagenet kings had a problem with this and fought it.
Strong kings like Henry and Edward won but most like Edward II,
Henry III, John ect were left humiliated and powerless. By the
time of the later Plantagenets and Edward III they just accepted the
power share.
Only 3 monarchs were to challege this, Charles I, James II and Richard II. One murdered, one executed and one exiled.
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Yeah the Norman era (William I, William II, Henry I, Stephen I) was
before the Plantagenet one (Henry II, Richard I, John I, Henry III,
Edward I, II, III, Richard II). After Richard II, it's the house of
Lancaster that replaced the House of Anjou.
But it's not really the question asked, the question would be rather,
would you consider England had really a power over the Plantagenent
lands in France?
My answer would be clearly no, first England had a completly different
politic system and they ruled with completly different titles and laws
in France as mentioned by Paul. Being Dukes and Counts of the Kings of
France they had to deal with them about their lands. Some of them tried
to fight it, like William I (wounded in battle and died), Henry I
(poisoned), Henry II (defeated and died), Richard I (killed in battle),
John I (defeated at Bouvines) and Henry III (defeated at Saintes).
Then the turmoil of the hundred years' war started under Edward III,
but then it's no longer the Platagenent lands that is in question.
The Platagenet kings themselves moved a lot, sometimes living in Angers
(there home city), or Chinon (their residential castle). Though, when
John I lost both they were clearly cut off their homeland and started
be assimilated in England. Yet then, they didn't rule much on French
territories (Aquitaine only) and then Henry III couldn't defeated Louis
IX to put the title of Duke of Aquitaine bound to the one of King of
England (and not France).
If you talk in cultural influence, I think there is no point in arguing
France had a bigger cultural influence over England than the opposite
at those times.
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Vae victis!
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Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 07-May-2005 at 13:50
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Originally posted by Exarchus
Everything is in the title.
Would you consider the Plantagenet area (sometimes refered as Angevin Empire) in France was English?
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No more than I would consider the West Indies or India to be English. Or, for that matter, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Or, at one time, Hanover.
Subject to the same monarch as England is correct.
.
The Duchy of Normandy invaded England, and then the County of Anjou (hence the name Angevin) invaded Normandy and so got England with.
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In his view, William inherited the crown of England from Edward the Confessor. So he invaded England as - self-proclaimed - King of England, not as Duke of Normandy.
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Posted By: Exarchus
Date Posted: 07-May-2005 at 16:26
Originally posted by gcle2003
No more than I would consider the West Indies or
India to be English. Or, for that matter, Scotland, Wales and Northern
Ireland. Or, at one time, Hanover.
Subject to the same monarch as England is correct.
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.
But Wales was a principality right? And then was subject to the Kings of England directly, right?
In his view, William inherited the crown of England from Edward the
Confessor. So he invaded England as - self-proclaimed - King of
England, not as Duke of Normandy.
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But his view was usurpating. He based his claim over the English
crown on the French law, not the English one. In England, kings had to
deal with elections, a system that he destroyed for a time. But I agree
he ruled England as King of England and not as Duke of Normandy, but it
is the opposite question that's asked here. If you think he ruled
Normandy as King of England, or if the Angevin ruled Anjou, Normandy
and Aquitaine as King of England (I did that because I'm often facing a
prick in another forum who claims half of France was English under
their rule and that I might link him this thread once day in a future
argument).
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Vae victis!
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