Horned helmets
Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: General History
Forum Name: Military History
Forum Discription: Discussions related to military history: generals, battles, campaigns, etc.
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28252
Printed Date: 27-Apr-2024 at 22:21
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.56a - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Horned helmets
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Subject: Horned helmets
Date Posted: 28-Mar-2010 at 11:36
I saw this one in a museum in Mashahd:
 Several other similar Persian helmets can be found in other museums and personal collections too:
    What do you think about the origin of horned helmets? As you read here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horned_helmet - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horned_helmet European http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Age - Bronze Age and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Age - Iron Age helmets with horns are known from a few depictions, and even fewer actual finds. Such http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helmet - helmets mounted with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horn_%28anatomy%29 - animal horns or replicas of them were probably used for religious http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceremony - ceremonial or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ritual - ritual purposes.
Is there any mention of using these helmets for military purposes? ------------- 
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Replies:
Posted By: SonOfIran
Date Posted: 28-Mar-2010 at 20:30
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Awesome pictures. Are they of Safavid origin? It is also interesting to note that Rustam (Shahnameh) also had a horned helmet. Perhaps they were inspired by Ferdowsi's masterpice? |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 28-Mar-2010 at 21:38
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Dear all,
Imanuel Velikovsky, made a very big deal about these horned helmets, in his works concerning the inscripions found at Medinet Habu, and attributed to the times of Ramesses III! And, as you should well know, Velikovsky also removed Rameses from his currently believed time of around 1200 BCE, to the Persian period in the 5th century BCE or so or what ever time is now alloted to the time of Nectanebo. Please see the book "Peoples of the Sea" for a more complete explanation of Velikovsky's theory! I may well have mentioned information concerning the above somewhere else on this site? But it does seem remarkable that the above Persian helmets, while not identical to those seen carved into the walls at Medinet Habu, are at the least, close cousins! And, as has been said, remains of any helments of this type are very rare. So, did Velikovsky actually use this helmet type to connect the Persians to Ramesses III / Nectanebo or was it something else? As I remember the Velikovsky theory the soldiers wearing the "horned helments with the disc between the horns", was supposed to be Greek, and not some mysterious Sea People! Regards, ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 28-Mar-2010 at 23:19
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Yes they are all from the Safavid and post-Safavid era, the fact is that Safavids revived the Persian identity to be distinguished from Sunni neighbors, so these helmets could be considered as Persian symbols too.
Certainly, the face of White Devil (Div-e Sepid) can be seen in most of these helmets, as you read here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Div-e-Sepid - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Div-e-Sepid Rostam slays Div-e Sepid and uses his heart and blood to cure the blindness of the king and the captured Persian heroes. Rostam also takes the Div's head as a helmet and is often pictured wearing it.  -------------
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Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 29-Mar-2010 at 12:55
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Funny, unlike popular myth the Vikings did not have horned helmets. I have seen numerous illustrations showing Kelts with horn-like helmets ------------- Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε |
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 29-Mar-2010 at 14:57
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I should mention that other than Rustam, some other characters in Shahnameh also wore horned helmets, in 1971 Tajiks made a movie titled "The Timeless Story of Rustam and Sohrab" in Tajikstan, you can see in this movie that Afrasiab, the mythical King of Turan, has also a horned helmet:  Part of the movie:
[TUBE]4LqQBFTRDX4[/TUBE]
You can read about Rostam: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rostam - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rostam
There are some interesting similarities between the legends of Rostam and those pertaining to the great http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland - Irish hero, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%BAchulainn - Cúchulainn . They both defeat a ferocious beast as a very young man, slay their sons in combat, are virtually invincible in combat, and are murdered by treachery while killing their murderer on their last breath.
About Cúchulainn: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%BA_Chulainn - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%BA_Chulainn (Rostam and Cú Chulainn share several other characteristics ...)
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Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 30-Mar-2010 at 10:50
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I would like each of you to view this site, and make sure you review the possible helment variations supposedly used by the Sea People called the Shardanu!
http://www.salimbeti.com/micenei/sea.htm These helment types were reportedly used in the period of 1300 BCE to about 1100 BCE! You might well note that the "The Safavid Empire was a powerful Islamic empire that began in 1501 and ended in 1723." Note; the above empire rep[ortedly existed in the Current Era or about 3000 years after the examples of similar helments found at the above site! Quite a long time to remember a certain design and / or reproduce it! Regards, ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 31-Mar-2010 at 12:40
I think it can be a good reason to say the unknown Sea People were probably an Indo-European people, of course horned helmets were worn by some non-Indo-European people too, for example it is said Sargon of Akkad (2334-2279 BC) has a horned helmet in the Stele of Naram-Sin:
  But as you see these Akkadian horned helmets/hats are somehow different from Indo-European ones, it seems the edge of the Akkadian hat has the form of a horn. -------------
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Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 31-Mar-2010 at 13:21
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Cyrus showed us some conical (horn shaped) helments,with what looks like candles upon the sides! Perhaps they are candles and the figures are celebrating a holy day?
See; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menorah_(Hanukkah) Just something to think about! Regards, ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 31-Mar-2010 at 20:16
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It is possible but horned animals can be found everywhere in the world and it can't be strange that some people wear hats which make them look like those animals, in spite of it, I still think that the horned helmets of the Sea People look like Indo-European ones, unless some other similar ones are found from other peoples. -------------
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Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 31-Mar-2010 at 20:30
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Cyrus, you wrote, in part; "in spite of it, I still think that the horned helmets of the Sea People look like Indo-European ones, unless some other similar ones are found from other peoples."
Sir, I don't think that I ever disregared that point! Indo-European can go both ways! I could well be called "European-Indo?" Sir, have you ever read the works of Velikovsky? Do, you agree with the establishments view of the Persian domination of Egypt? It is just such problems that worry me! Regards, ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: jedc53
Date Posted: 29-Apr-2010 at 06:08
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Horned and winged helmets of this type have been traced to mostly pre viking German.This 'helmet' was dredged from the River Thames at Waterloo
Bridge in the early 1860s.It is the only Iron Age helmet to have
ever been found in southern England,I have a plasma cannon long fang with one of the chaos marauder spiked helmets.
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Posted By: Baal Melqart
Date Posted: 28-May-2011 at 11:43
Similarly, this is also found in Assyrian bas-reliefs. If you look closely, the Anunaki has a horn but since he giving us his side, the horn is also seen from the side and not protruding like in the simpler Akkadian relief. http://www.flickr.com/photos/wallyg/2439493019/ - http://www.flickr.com/photos/wallyg/2439493019/ ------------- Timidi mater non flet |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 28-May-2011 at 18:14
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Dear Baal, I am glad that you brought this one back up! Could you consider these horned helments a predecessor to the so called "Crescent" symbol, some times however seen as a "circle" that is now thought to represent Islam?
That is, instead of any Moon relation, the symbol might well represent "Horns?" Regards, ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: Baal Melqart
Date Posted: 28-May-2011 at 22:54
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But why woud it represent horns? Plus the 'hilal' (crescent) is usually directed to the side and not upward. If you can find a reasonable explanation as for this connection then I don't think we can easily dismiss that it symbolises the moon.
------------- Timidi mater non flet |
Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 29-May-2011 at 09:48
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I started another thread about Horned skulls being found in various places world wide. I found several cultures in which "Horns" denoted kingship or power over others. Might these horned helmets be an emulation of something or someone in a very distant past? ------------- "Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces". Unknown. |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 29-May-2011 at 16:14
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Red, would you be speaking about Moses/Zeus, etc.?
Regards, ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 29-May-2011 at 16:35
He is talking about weird skull with horns Opuslola.Were those helmets just symbols of creatures that somehow had ruled Earth superior&fearsome once!?!I do not thing it is about male,which wife gave him this helmet as anniversary gift.With inscriptions:"Sempre Fi!
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Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 29-May-2011 at 20:22
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NO! I consider those skulls as aborations at best and merely fakes at worst!
Any society that respected or worshiped the "Bull", whould naturally use the fighting symbol of the bull, in their warrior form. Think? Just why are "Bull fights" still so popular in some places? Of course it is harder to make a representation of a "fighting Cock" look impressive upon one's helment! Regards, ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: Baal Melqart
Date Posted: 30-May-2011 at 09:42
Oh yeah?! ------------- Timidi mater non flet |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 30-May-2011 at 15:38
So the above representaion is one of the wings of fighting cocks? 
A good try but you will not receive the two dollar cigar! Nor will you be able to wear the "cock ring!" Regards, ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: Baal Melqart
Date Posted: 30-May-2011 at 15:50
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you're hilarious!
------------- Timidi mater non flet |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 30-May-2011 at 15:58
I know, maybe one day I will get a special on that Cable TV channel either before or after "Real Sex?" 
Perhaps we should become friends before I become a real star? "Well want you come and see me in the movies? They are going to make a big star out of me!" If Ringo could do it, why not me? Regards, ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: Sander
Date Posted: 31-May-2011 at 07:05
Size matters...
 Sardinia (ca. 10-8th century BC)
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Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 31-May-2011 at 07:35
It "greaves" me to say it but he was a very horny guy!  ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: Nick1986
Date Posted: 04-Jun-2011 at 21:32
Could ancient Germanic helmets have influenced the design of the WW1 Stahlhelm? These had horns which served as ventilation tubes and a mount for a protective face shield ------------- Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains! |
Posted By: Nick1986
Date Posted: 21-Nov-2011 at 19:07
 Here's one of the few horned helmets still in existence, found at Waterloo Bridge and dating to around 150 BC. During the Dark Ages helmets of this type may well have been handed down as ceremonial headgear for chieftains chanelling the power of the Horned God, but lost or destroyed when the tribe was defeated and absorbed by a more powerful rival ------------- Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains! |
Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 22-Nov-2011 at 11:19
Horns were once a symbol of Kingship, or power. Alexander was depicted having horns on several coins minted during his reign. Michaelangelo depicted moses with horns. These ideas had to come from somewhere.
 ------------- "Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces". Unknown. |
Posted By: unclefred
Date Posted: 22-Nov-2011 at 13:16
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Since then it has grown 2.4in in length and another now appears to emerging on the other side of the mother of seven’s forehead.  Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1256398/Chinese-grandmother-grows-devil-horns.html#ixzz1eSXxrsyA - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1256398/Chinese-grandmother-grows-devil-horns.html#ixzz1eSXxrsyA |
Posted By: tjadams
Date Posted: 22-Nov-2011 at 17:26
| It just looks too shopped to be true. |
Posted By: Nick1986
Date Posted: 22-Nov-2011 at 19:06
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As discussed in the other thread, i still find this report hard to believe. It's more likely horns were used because similar animals, like goats or oxen were physically strong and had a high sex-drive. Similar displays of virility were used in the medieval period when kings like Henry VIII wore oversized codpieces
------------- Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains! |
Posted By: unclefred
Date Posted: 22-Nov-2011 at 21:33
| How do you know he didn't have a big unit? |
Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 23-Nov-2011 at 16:07
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They didn't have pockets then, maybe that's where he kept his change? TJ, the skull I posted is in the British Museum, and the old woman is just one of a hundred or so with the same structures. I know, it's almost too weird to accept. ------------- "Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces". Unknown. |
Posted By: Nick1986
Date Posted: 23-Nov-2011 at 19:07
That's always another possibility ------------- Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains! |
Posted By: tjadams
Date Posted: 23-Nov-2011 at 19:12
With all due respect, just being in a museum doesn't make it real. But, I see your point. The shapes and forms the human body has and can make always amazed me into jaw dropping wonderment. I'm just skeptical as with the internet things cannot always be counted upon to be true.
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Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2011 at 17:37
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I used to do a presentation at the School I last taught at. It was called It's true! I read it on the internet!" I first designed it for the kids, but after observing the teachers during the kid's session, I tuned it up some and we used it for an "In Service".
Not all of my information comes from the I net. However, being selective as to what sites you rely on, and backing up your info via sites like Jstor. [There are cheaper alternatives] can keep you out of trouble.
Fringie sites however, do have some merit. [note, I said merit, not credibility] However ridiculous their explanations might sometimes be, they can often give you clues to the actuality.
The Skull has been studied for years. It's real, not having an explanation for something doesn't make it a Hoax. That skull is from Germany, I think. Don't hold me to that, but somewhere in that gen. region. I'm trying to find the artist's sketches of the skulls from Pa. Similarity is striking.
------------- "Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces". Unknown. |
Posted By: Nick1986
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2011 at 19:35
 When taking a deer as a trophy, hunters don't cut off its schlong and display it on their wall. They take its horns, partly because these don't rot and partly because they symbolise the beast's dominance over its peers (through both violence and sexual prowess) ------------- Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains! |
Posted By: Muertexxxx
Date Posted: 31-Dec-2012 at 12:14
| I have a helmet just like the one at the bottom of the page. The one I have has chain mail on it. |
Posted By: Nick1986
Date Posted: 01-Jan-2013 at 09:56
Is it original or a replica? ------------- Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains! |
Posted By: fatimah
Date Posted: 28-Feb-2015 at 15:49
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Dear All I cant find this part in the book "people of the sea". can you please tell me which pages there are?
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Posted By: fatimah
Date Posted: 28-Feb-2015 at 15:52
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Hi Dear I cant find this part in the book "people of the sea". can you please tell me which part or pages there are?
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Posted By: fatimah
Date Posted: 28-Feb-2015 at 15:55
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Can you please give more details about the pictures of helmets? Date? museum? origin? style?
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