Standards! Are they what we think?
Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: General History
Forum Name: Alternative History
Forum Discription: Discussion of Unorthodox Historical Theories & Approaches
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28219
Printed Date: 28-Apr-2024 at 23:29
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Topic: Standards! Are they what we think?
Posted By: opuslola
Subject: Standards! Are they what we think?
Date Posted: 17-Mar-2010 at 19:02
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All of you, I assume, have noticed that many nations or families have gone to war under a "standard" or "shield", or?, where we are told there exists either one or more "Eagles!" But, what if everything we have been told exists, is wrong?
I would suggest that in many of those cases, there was not an "Eagle" intended by rather the "Raven!" The Raven or Rook, or most likely the "Corvus", as well as any number of other words describe them in differing languages, might more likely to be the bird pictured than the Eagle? The Corvus, Raven, etc., is and has always been the bird of the battlefield! So, first of all, can anyone dispute me? Regards, ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Replies:
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 03-Jun-2010 at 18:18
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"Quoth the Raven, nevermore!" E. A. Poe ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: DreamWeaver
Date Posted: 04-Jun-2010 at 05:59
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Why a raven as opposed to an eagle? Eagles share cross cultural semiotic meaning. Ideas of nobility and strength, fierceness etc. Hence why they are used, especially in a military capacity. ------------- |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 04-Jun-2010 at 16:46
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Of course, some "standards" have been made to look like "eagles!", but if you look at enough of them, you will see that early versions, look suspiciously more like Ravens, or Corvus, etc., than Eagles!
Perhaps it is merely an evolution in Art? ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: DreamWeaver
Date Posted: 04-Jun-2010 at 18:23
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It could just be a case of perspective and artistic technique, which has evolved and improved over time to create something more 'realistic.' It may resemble a raven, but the crafter may have intended it to be something else, such as an eagle. For example if I just doodle a quick picture of a bird on a piece of paper. Will people see ti as a eagle, a crow, a pigeon, a sea gull? Obviosuly because I am limited by my own artistic abilites and the medium I am using. Also, does it really matter what we see them as? Not so much. What is important is what did the people of the time see it as, and what did it mean to them? ------------- |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 04-Jun-2010 at 18:34
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What did it mean to them? I thought I had already made that clear?
Corrected verb tense. ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: DreamWeaver
Date Posted: 05-Jun-2010 at 04:53
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no....not really.
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Posted By: Azadi
Date Posted: 05-Jun-2010 at 07:13
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You talking about the eagle of Saladin ? It being used in every form and fashion by countries all over the world. ------------- 
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Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 05-Jun-2010 at 13:39
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Azadi, thanks for the information! But it seems the connection of the artefact found in Egypt, to Saladin, is not really considered as valid.
See; http://wapedia.mobi/en/Coat_of_arms_of_Egypt But, if you look a the representations found at the above site, you will notice one, at least, that does not have the typical "hooked" beak! It is the lack of this hook, that seems to me to suggest that it was not always considered an Eagle! Oh yes! I almost forgot! DW, what I meant to imply, was that I had already "implied", that it was my opinion that in the original forms, it was not the Eagle but the Corvus! Sorry for the ambiguity! Also, read this; http://www.orkneyjar.com/history/historicalfigures/earlsigurd/ ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 05-Jun-2010 at 14:26
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I might also ask you to read this site;
http://www.baronyofcaux.com/History%20of%20the%20Barony.html It is full of good information, even though the author does nor himself recognize the significance of it. For example, the author identifies the part of France where this Norman family came from as "Caux!", and just what pray tell does the Crow/Raven reportedly say? Usually we write it as "Caw", in English, but it sure looks like the Normans wrote it as "Caux?" or "Caus!" I also ask that you look at this site; http://books.google.com/books?id=ownpAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA834&lpg=PA834&dq=the+corvus+as+a+standard+in+battle&source=bl&ots=4uzrzqE7tS&sig=uu2Eg9oxSoxe2aMdZnGNqOglxLA&hl=en&ei=Eb0KTPWRG8T_lge86vCBDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CCYQ6AEwBTgU#v=onepage&q=the%20corvus%20as%20a%20standard%20in%20battle&f=false Please look at the representation and meaning of Corvus found on page 1285! As well as other related words and their definitions! Regards, ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 05-Jun-2010 at 14:37
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Perhaps these sites will provide some information?
http://www.iwaskicontemporaryart.com/raven.htm http://tailsofbirding.blogspot.com/2009/06/raven.html "This dark side of Raven has a long history. Ravens are opportunistic omnivores, quite content to dine on carrion. Coming out of the dark forests onto an ancient battlefield, they appeared to relish the carnage. The fearsome Celtic warrior goddess, Morrigan, was served by ravens. She was capable of turning the tide in war. She could turn herself into a raven to survey the battlefield and encourage her chosen side to new levels of brutality. When the battle was over, and ravens descended to the battlefield, she would feast with them on the bodies of the dead. It is hardly surprising that the reputation of the raven was often a grim one, associated with sorrow and death, with the devil and darkness. In some areas of England, hats are tipped to ravens in order not to offend them and children are told that the Great Black Bird will carry them off if they are bad." And; "Raven is a royal bird. Alexander the Great was guided across the desert by two ravens sent from heaven. King Arthur was turned into a raven. For over 900 years, ravens have lived in the Tower of London. It is said that if the ravens ever leave the Tower of London, the Tower will fall, and if the Tower falls, the Crown of England to which it is tied will fall - and if the Crown falls, then England will fall. The ravens have never left the Tower of London; clipped wings may have aided in their loyal defense of the Crown." And; "Half a world away from the Native Americans of the Pacific Northwest, the Norsemen of Scandinavia honored Odin, chief god in the mythology of the Eddas, god of war, of wisdom, and of poetry. Odin was attended by two ravens named Huginn, “Thought,” and Muninn, “Memory.” Their job was to keep him informed of everything that happened on the earth. When Huginn and Muninn, the two ravens, left him, Odin was without thought or memory until they returned. Then they would tell him stories of all they had witnessed or heard. Through the voice of Grimnir, the god muses: Every morning the two ravens Huginn and Muninn, / are loosed and fly over Midgard; / I always fear that Thought may not wing his way home, / but my fear for Memory is greater. Because of Odin’s affinity with these birds, the Norse revered all ravens and still tell stories about these birds." And; "According the the BIBLE, ELIJA was fed by ravens!" It is from information, such as the little that I have provided above, that I make my suggestions! Regards, ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: DreamWeaver
Date Posted: 05-Jun-2010 at 17:19
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I think you might be seeing things that arent neccessarily there. If the people saw it as a raven then why would they use other terminology or the name of another bird entirely to describe the standard? If its a raven then why not call it a raven. Thence the bird associated with that standard would be an raven. If its an eagle why not call it an eagle. As indeed they did, Aquila, Latin for eagle and the standards of a legion. They dont use the term Corvus, that is a raven. That said not all standards have to be eagles, or ravens, they could be any bird. The choice is appropriate to the creator of said standard. Otherwise somebody might want to tell the CIA or the USMC that its not an eagle on their logos. Also as far as I am aware, it is an Eagle of Saladin. ------------- |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 05-Jun-2010 at 17:25
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DW, it appears that there was found an edifice upon a place said to have been built by Saladin, that showed a representation of what was most likely an Eagle! But, as the site I listed above said, it seems that archaeologists and others, have placed little faith in dating it to the time of Saladin!
Therefore, what ever animal is represented, has not received full support for it being in any matter connected to Saladin! If no "representation of an eagle" can be connected to Saladin by our archaeologists, etc., than what does that make the "Salain Eagle?", since its origin comes from this undated representation? ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: DreamWeaver
Date Posted: 06-Jun-2010 at 04:57
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You mean it hasnt recieved full support from archaeologists, that is a different matter. (inserts typical historian superiority joke over archaeologists etc). There have been coins found from later Ayyubid rulers, bearing inscriptions and details of eagles and double headed eagles. Thus even if its not actually dateable to Saladin, then the iconography is dateable atleast to his dynasty. ------------- |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 06-Jun-2010 at 15:57
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How do you explain a painting of Saladin wearing a vestment of "fleur de lis?"
How could any, and I mean, "any" old painter of any generation ever depict this figure wearing such vestments? While I have no scanner to perform such a representation, and even if I did have one, I seem to be unable to do many things on this site that others of you do on a regular basis! I do have the book, whereby, one can find said painting! If necessary, I could even mail you the book, and you can look at it and post it yourself? Or one of you could easily purchase said book for your self, at or thru, "Barnes & Noble!" It can be seen on page 104 at, "Battles of the Crusades, 1097-1444" Note, it refers to the events after the battle of Hattin! Regards, ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: DreamWeaver
Date Posted: 06-Jun-2010 at 16:33
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Rather simply if its medieval or early modern artwork then its purely stylistic and not representative. Theres paintings of Saladin jousting with Richard I, that didnt happen though, thats purely apocraphyl, the same can be true of the Saladin wearing the Fleur de Lys. Saladin also turns up in Dante's limbo, amongst the righteous pagans, not therefore entirely impossible that an artist might wish to portray him in atire that might infer noblility etc.
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Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 06-Jun-2010 at 16:56
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Ah! You are good at using the typical historian excusses! Just why can you and others like you ever figure out the the ancients and even those in the Middle Ages, had good sense? Just why are there so many "out of context" mentions? or depictions?
Just how is our view of the past, from centuries later, "better?" Can we not assume that a great deal of ancient documents, as well as paintings, etc., existed 500 or so years ago, that are not now extant? You use the easy excuses! They may reside upon the edge of the Razor, however? 
Regards, ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 16-Jun-2010 at 17:30
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Dream Weaver, I really thought that you had more to say on this subject? The Middle Ages, are supposedly your forte'?
And, you also know that Roman Catholic warriors or in some words Monks, and other laity, were involved via the order of numbers of Popes to destroy all evidence of an earlier world! Yet, in the final outcome, it seems it was these same groups who reportedly preserved the words, etc., of the ancients! I think the correct word is dichotomy? http://www.merriam-webster.com/netdict/dichotomy But, perhaps, I am again, wrong? I have been once you know?  ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 30-Jun-2010 at 18:43
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DW, look! Both my wife and I are unable to upload any scanned picture to this site!
Cryptic, God bless his heart, tried to tell me what to do, but since I am mostly computer illiterate, especially after Windows came into being, I just could not follow even his suggestions. Thus, I am always left out as the only poster here that cannot post what ever I want! It was only recently that I found out that the funny symbol to the right of the underlined U, actually did something! It is called "the full supply editor" or something to that effect! But then I was left with two green tree symbols that said things that neither my wife or I could understand. So, here I reside, with tons of photos, etc, to post, via my new scanner and no way to import them to the site as does most anyother asshole who finds there way here! I was raised in DOS, and since the change, I have been mostly lost! So, here I sit, with scanned images ready to post, and I can find no way to do so! It is hell being old and left out! Perhaps cryptic thought I already knew enough to do something? He gave me directions to places I could not see nor find! But, perhaps you have a more simple mind, one that matches mine? "Hope, is just another word for, nothing else left to loose?" ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: DreamWeaver
Date Posted: 01-Jul-2010 at 03:25
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If you happen to have the pciture on a website or know where it is then you can always try using it as a hyper link instead fo people to go look at. Is it that historians assume that their context is better? or that perhaps historians just dont know what the context is/was? We are after all lilited in our perceptionsof the past. ------------- |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 04-Jul-2010 at 16:06
No, as far as I know, the depictions I wish you to see, come from books, and I have scanned those into my computer.
The above is a depiction of Saladin after the Battle of Horns, where he kills Guy, and accepts the resignation of the real King! My question still exists, just why would any artist clothe a "Saracen" in the garments of a French King? Note that Saladin is wearing a chest protector with the "fleur de Lis" apparent! Since a lot of these old depictions are a "consolidated" depiction, then you will see differing points of view which are time related upon the same depiction! Thus, upon the above depiction, you will be able to see Saladin himself in the upper center of the depiction, cutting off the head of Guy! Thus my question still remains, just why would any artist denote a "king" of the "saracens", as being from a royal house of France? I would like to thank my step daughter for doing the above! Although I watched her do it, I still have no idea how she did it? ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 04-Jul-2010 at 19:26
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As DreamWeaver prommoted, one needs a site that promotes realitY!
Therefor, I offer most all of you a site/sight that most men might never see! Please note that this site shows a part of the female anatomy in the "blond" state that most all of us have never seen! Warning to those of you who are under the age of 18! You must promise that the object soon to be exposed by the clicking of the following link, will likeley see some things that should only be seen by "Adults Only" %20 - If you happen to have the pciture on a website or know where it is then you can always try using it as a hyper link instead fo people to go look at. If you missed it, it is beccause I can find no way to legally post it here ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: DreamWeaver
Date Posted: 05-Jul-2010 at 05:03
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Saladin kills Reynaldd Chatillion after the battle of Hattin, not Guy, he goes on to found Lusignan Dynasty of Cyprus. The simple answer for Saladin and the European style dress is artisitic tropes. It is simply the way one can depict Saladin. Familiarising him to the reader by such imagery and insinutating ideas of nobility etc. Saladin was a very popular figure amongst Christians in the Middle Ages. ------------- |
Posted By: DreamWeaver
Date Posted: 05-Jul-2010 at 05:17
 Example. Here we have apicture of the siege of Damietta. Christians in the bottom right and Muslims inside the city. Bothe depicted the as the same really. Simply aritstic style.  Here the siege of Rhodes by the Ottomans, the Knights of St. John depicted in an eastern fashion.  Battle of Hattin again both sides depicted in a veyr similar manner. That the aritist chose to depict Saladin in a French style is not unsurprising, not is it a great mystery, it is merely the obvious and easily recognised manner in whicj to depict him. ------------- |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 05-Jul-2010 at 14:10
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Hey thanks for the correction! Indeed Reynauld de Chatillon and all of the Knights Templar and Hospitallier, were executed by Saladin or by his order!
The name "Guy", which is sometimes used to denote someone who acts like an idiot, was saved! Like "Guy" I was in a hurry to write, and acted like an idiot! In the depiction shown with the heading "Battle of Hattin again both sides depicted in a very similar manner." It seems easy to identify Guy above, since only one figure is dressed in a white blouse, etc., embolden with a certain form of the Christian Cross! Do you know in what manner these crosses were called? Does your source indicate whether or not Saladin was identified in the above depiction? The only possibility I can extract, is the man wearing the "purple" wearing an orange turban who seems to be holding the left arm of Guy! It also seems that the number of "banners" or "standards" seen flying in the background should make a good study all their own! And just what is the armoured knight in the left foreground doing? It seems he is holding a beam or post and standing it or forcing it into another beam, etc.? Thanks for the above views! I still do not accept your explanation of such things as "artistic tropes!" Some of them, maybe, but not all! Such as your explanation of the manner of dress, etc., of the Order of St. Johns! Certainly this very "order" had been in the East for hundreds of years by the time this event happened! Is it by any great chance that they seemed to look "oriental?" Oh! and as regards the seige of Daimettia, it could well be considered that a great deal of mercenaries fought here/there and they could well be dressed as mercs and identical on both sides! ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: DreamWeaver
Date Posted: 06-Jul-2010 at 04:12
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The man in the Left of the picture is man handling the True Cross I believe. As far as Im aware there is no mention of Saladin in the pciture, but that is not to say the Man in the orange and purple certainly couldnt be him. ------------- |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 06-Jul-2010 at 04:47
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Yes! I believe you are correct about the cross! You might even notice that it is made in the most simple manner. It appears the base pole, the one the knight is holding with both arms, appears to have been tapered to almost a point, and then inserted into a rough cut hole in the cross-piece!
A very crude exhibit when compared to most representations which are square notch fitted or topped, straight tees! You might also notice the banner exhibited with a single chevron apparent! I also cannot figure out what the knight wearing the orange frock is doing? You will notice a lance seemingly stuck in the helment of the downed knight at his feet. Is it the orange clad knight holding the lance or is it the knight with the scaled armour? Regards, ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: DreamWeaver
Date Posted: 06-Jul-2010 at 09:32
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The knight in orange appears to be in the up swing with his weapon about to bring it down onto the pink kinght at his feet. The chap next to him in the scaled armour, which I imagine is possibly a representation of some sort of Lamellar, is sticking him with some sort of polearm. ------------- |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 06-Jul-2010 at 16:34
Yes! I sort of see it! I was worried since I saw no golf club anywhere! 
Quite a good back-swing, I think! ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: DreamWeaver
Date Posted: 07-Jul-2010 at 05:22
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Probbaly using a putter for maximum effect
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Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 07-Jul-2010 at 07:19
I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one who notices strange stuff like that. To me, it looks like he's fully extended and is just releasing, as you would if you were in a well raked trap. I also went looking for a club.
 It's not as off mark as you might think, Golf in one of it's early forms, dates to the late 1200's. And yes, I'm aware that some sources put the beginning of Golf at 1552. That's the approx. date of St. Andrews in Scotland. Golf, however is much older. I keep an eye out for any representation of the game in Medieval works. ------------- "Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces". Unknown. |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 07-Jul-2010 at 10:28
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Tomato Master, it appears that you also play golf! Good deal! I love to examine old representations like the ones displayed above! And in the above case, it does seem very important part of the depiction is missing! Very strange, I wonder if it at one time existed and was removed for some reason? But, it also seems the original depiction was larger, and we do not see the entirety of the painting.
Other old representations,well even one of those above, e.g., the one I managed to display, show multiple events in one panel. And in my representation you also see Saladin in the centre backgound dispatching Reynauld, and somewhat clumsily it seems! Today, when a student sees most of these representations, I am afraid there is no mention of all of the activity shown within them. But, in the past it seems every one was expected to note each action and place it in the correct time, etc.! Regards, ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 10-Jul-2010 at 11:22
I actually worked at the Noble sport of Flog I carried a B card for awhile, [Asst. Pro, mainly teaching] but mainly was involved in course maint. as Asst. Supt and later as Greens Supt.
Unfortunately, do to a serious injury I am no longer able to play. However, I still maintain an avid interest in the evolution of the game and the equipment.
One important factor that's being overlooked, when dealing with Medieval artwork you must remember that 80% of the population was illiterate. These paintings were frequently story line works. Made to replace the written word. Paintings were also used to advertise or commemorate important events. Many time these paintings were done by people who hadn't actually been there. So you get things like Saladin shown in the raiment of a French king, as that may have been the most important person the artist had ever seen. ------------- "Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces". Unknown. |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 17-Jul-2010 at 16:08
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I, at one time, held a 3 handicap! I also have a low score to my credit with a 63!, albeit on a short public course, where one improved ones lie, in the fairway! The par was 71!
But, to make things any funnier, I also shot a 90 one the same course within a few weeks!
Golf was to me, for a number of years, my only outlet! Then later in life, I found that I could beat people at "words" where I could not beat them at golf! Just where do we stand on that "score?" ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 22-Jul-2010 at 14:22
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But, back to the above golf depiction, upon closer examination, it does seem that he has taken what could be called a very good golf swing with a spiked mace!
Nice extension of the left arm!, as well as a great shoulder turn!@ FORE!  ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 12-Jan-2014 at 18:02
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Notice to new viewers, the above posts are a few years old but they contain some good information.
Regards, Ron ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 12-Jan-2014 at 19:55
Sidney! Here is one of them! Ron ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 12-Jan-2014 at 20:09
Hey, you're going off thread here, Saladins Fleur de Lis (or Trefoil perhaps) has nothing to do with Eagles and Crows. In Heraldry, the Eagle represents a "Person of noble nature, strength, bravery, and alertness; leadership; or one who is high-spirited, ingenious, quick-witted, and judicious; "True magnanimity and strength of mind" acc. to Guillim. If wings "displayed," it signifies protection." An entirely different representation of the Raven is "Divine providence", not particularly war like. ------------- |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 14-Jan-2014 at 23:33
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toyomotor, are you suggesting that the "trefoil" and the "Fleur de Lis", are not a part and parcel of the art of heraldry?
You must either be mad or you hold some thing that you will now present to support your belief? So, either support it or leave it along? Ron ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 15-Jan-2014 at 00:38
Absolutely not! Of course the Trefoil and the Fleur De Lis are Heraldic symbols. The Fleur de Lis is described as meaning Purity; light; and is the floral badge of France; it also represents sixth son as mark of difference while the Trefoil means Perpetuity. I'm certainly not mad, but it is apparent that I know more about Heraldry than you do. ------------- |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 15-Jan-2014 at 00:48
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Yes, toyomotor you might well be correct! So, since you know so much then why don't you educate all of us?
I would certainly love to learn what you claim to know? Regards, Ron ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 15-Jan-2014 at 19:17
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Opuslola: I don't intend to continue this with you. You made an incorrect assumption that I believed that the Trefoil and Fleur de Lis were not heraldic symbols. I've never said that. There's not even anything for us to disagree about, so why persist? ------------- |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 15-Jan-2014 at 20:40
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I concede that you are more educated upon the arts of heraldry than am I. But I just think that we or I had a misunderstanding. I apologize for being out of bounds in my post.
Can you explain the apparent development of the "Frog", the Trefoil, and the Flower? And, oh! Just whom could forget about those pesky "bees?" smile Regards, Ron ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 15-Jan-2014 at 23:30
Frogs in Heraldry, also referred to as toads, tadpoles, or powets. Used occasionally in English heraldry, but not found in French heraldry. Represents rapid determination. I'm not able to detail why a frog was chosen as each charge used on Arms granted to an individual are specific to the individual to whom they are granted, for example, bravery in Battle, or a deed noted by the King. The King of The Franks had three frogs as his charge. The Fleur de Lis, as I posted earlier represents a stylized form of the lily. It is the floral badge of France and is known as the "flower of light." It may represent one who fought for France - or against France. It also became an emblem of political power in France. The fleur de lis represents the Virgin Mary. In Ireland the fleur-de-lis often has a Christian significance. It may also represent the sixth son.Flowers are the symbol of hope and joy, and like the rest, the meaning is specific to an individual. ------------- |
Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 15-Jan-2014 at 23:57
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Opuslola: History of the Coat of Arms
The use of emblems and symbols as a means of identification is both ancient and worldwide. From the most ancient times, emblems have been used by families, clans, tribes, cities and nations, and by organizations of various kinds, both national and international. There are those that believe that heraldic symbols go back to the 12 tribes of Israel. They claim that many of the heraldic symbols used in the middle ages derived from similar symbols used on the standards of the various tribes. Modern heraldry has evolved from this early form of heraldry, which became increasingly formalized during the middle ages. The development of the suit of armor in the 12th century in Western Europe gave rise to individuals using heraldry symbols to differentiate men in armor from one another. The original thought behind the chosen heraldic symbol can almost never be known. Some choices are obvious - i.e. Bells to represent the name Belles or a bird as a play on the name Byrd. One of the guiding principles of heraldry was that a coat of arms should clearly identify a particular person while at the same time attaching some importance to the family he belonged to. This led to the creation of distinguishing signs. In many instances the crest served as a means of differentiating individuals, and, as a result, their own family lines. The system of a special mark of difference, or mark of cadency, (see Mark of Cadency section) for each member of the family began with Henry III. In medieval times the marks of difference on Italian arms were designs which represented one's political allegiance. Scotland, as well as many other countries, developed their own system of marks of difference. With each succeeding generation the process became more cumbersome. Great Britain is the only country in the world in which the classical procedure of using a mark of difference for individuals is still customary, and this is primarily the use of a silver label in the royal family. There is a difference between the marks distinguishing the different members of a particular family and marks of favor. In almost all countries, and particularly those with a monarchy, additional signs are granted to deserving people, and also communities. These symbols are usually taken from the state or country arms of their sovereign. Thus many family arms bear a royal symbol. Generally the language of heraldry suggests its warlike origin. The term Coat of arms is derived from the surcoat worn over the armor to keep off the rays of the sun. It was a waistcoat-like garment, on which the heraldic design was depicted. The knight wore the arms shown on the surcoat on his shield, the trappings of his horse, and his lance pennon. In addition, he might have painted on his helmet what was called his crest. Not all knights chose a crest. The motto is not an integral part of the coat of arms, and may be changed at the will of the user. There are many terms used to indicate the heraldry design worn by the knight. They are referred to as coat of arms, arms, armorial bearings, armorial achievement, and shield. Some erroneously use the term crest to refer to the entire coat of arms. A woman's coat of arms is not to be shown on her own shield or equipped with a helmet and crest because she is not expected to go to war. However, if she is a queen, she is entitled to the full heraldic achievement, with helmet, crest and shield. This is because the gender of the sovereign is immaterial in heraldry. A symbol (charge) from a woman's coat of arms can be included on a husband's coat of arms if he so desires. This act, known as Marshaling, is especially prevalent if the wife is an heiress. This system of marshaling first began in Spain in the thirteenth century. For more info see http://www.familynamesonline.com/coahistory.html ------------- |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 21-Jan-2014 at 15:19
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Thanks for the good posts! I always tend to consider the "Franks" as also French so some confusion is always apparent. After all, the French have been called "Frogs" for centuries, just like the Germans were referred to as Krauts, presumable because they loved sour kraut!, and even "cabbage heads!"
I contend that the standards mentioned above are all related and represent historical evolutionary developments of the symbol. What do you think? How about this view of the execution? http://static.environmentalgraffiti.com/sites/default/files/images/http-inlinethumb55.webshots.com-45494-2402807310104391629S600x600Q85.jpg Or this one of the battle. http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2447/4039593544_3ce6189a38_z.jpg But why am I wasting your time and mine, here is a whole page of views of this battle. http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=saladin+and+the+battle+of+hattin&qpvt=saladin+and+the+battle+of+hattin&FORM=IGRE#a Enjoy, Ron ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 21-Jan-2014 at 19:29
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Opuslola: No, let's not go off thread. This topic is interesting. I don't know how the various heraldic symbology developed, except to say that certain symbols came to represent some noteworthy performance (in a lot of cases) by the bearer. I'll do some more research and get back to you when I have it. ------------- |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 21-Jan-2014 at 21:04
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Thanks! I am now going through some home improvements and I am nothing but nerves!
If one is afraid of home improvements and have not done one, the stay afraid! Regards, Ron ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 22-Jan-2014 at 00:41
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I've created a new thread called "History of Heraldry". I've provided a very brief outline of what I've found so far. ------------- |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 25-Jan-2014 at 00:23
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I am not sure most readers understand just what "standard" as we use it here, was really present in the past.
Thus if any of you wondered about the above, then you should know, that to my knowledge a "standard" is commonly see in the company of other standards, as a wedge shaped flag, like those commonly sold years ago, that is perched upon a long shaft and held in the air above the mele', and used to stand for a place to either gather around before as battle or to respond to if a signal directed it. Ron ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 04-Mar-2014 at 23:13
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I will also suggest that our lamented poster "toyomotor", whom shall post not more, made a great post above;
"The development of the suit of armor in the 12th century in Western Europe gave rise to individuals using heraldry symbols to differentiate men in armor from one another. The original thought behind the chosen heraldic symbol can almost never be known. Some choices are obvious - i.e. Bells to represent the name Belles or a bird as a play on the name Byrd." Well it seems the father we move the more questions are asked. And is it just a quaint point in our currently accepted chronology that one of our few Eastern Crusades also began, with Papal authority and redemption also stated about this same time???? ron ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 05-Mar-2014 at 16:47
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%20 - http://static.environmentalgraffiti.com/sites/default/files/images/http-inlinethumb55.webshots.com-45494-2402807310104391629S600x600Q85.jpg
Another version of the final outcome of the Battle of Hattin. If someone can do it, could you post the actual scene? Ron ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |