Standards! Are they what we think?

All of you, I assume, have noticed that many nations or families have gone to war under a "standard" or "shield", or?, where we are told there exists either one or more "Eagles!" But, what if everything we have been told exists, is wrong?

I would suggest that in many of those cases, there was not an "Eagle" intended by rather the "Raven!"

The Raven or Rook, or most likely the "Corvus", as well as any number of other words describe them in differing languages, might more likely to be the bird pictured than the Eagle?

The Corvus, Raven, etc., is and has always been the bird of the battlefield!

So, first of all, can anyone dispute me?

Regards,

Why a raven as opposed to an eagle?

Eagles share cross cultural semiotic meaning. Ideas of nobility and strength, fierceness etc. Hence why they are used, especially in a military capacity.

It could just be a case of perspective and artistic technique, which has evolved and improved over time to create something more 'realistic.' It may resemble a raven, but the crafter may have intended it to be something else, such as an eagle.

For example if I just doodle a quick picture of a bird on a piece of paper. Will people see ti as a eagle, a crow, a pigeon, a sea gull? Obviosuly because I am limited by my own artistic abilites and the medium I am using.

Also, does it really matter what we see them as? Not so much. What is important is what did the people of the time see it as, and what did it mean to them?

no....not really.

Azadi, thanks for the information! But it seems the connection of the artefact found in Egypt, to Saladin, is not really considered as valid.

See;

http://wapedia.mobi/en/Coat_of_arms_of_Egypt

But, if you look a the representations found at the above site, you will notice one, at least, that does not have the typical "hooked" beak!

It is the lack of this hook, that seems to me to suggest that it was not always considered an Eagle!

Oh yes! I almost forgot! DW, what I meant to imply, was that I had already "implied", that it was my opinion that in the original forms, it was not the Eagle but the Corvus!

Sorry for the ambiguity!

Also, read this;

http://www.orkneyjar.com/history/historicalfigures/earlsigurd/



Edited by opuslola - 05-Jun-2010 at 13:44

Perhaps these sites will provide some information?

http://www.iwaskicontemporaryart.com/raven.htm

http://tailsofbirding.blogspot.com/2009/06/raven.html

"This dark side of Raven has a long history. Ravens are opportunistic omnivores, quite content to dine on carrion. Coming out of the dark forests onto an ancient battlefield, they appeared to relish the carnage. The fearsome Celtic warrior goddess, Morrigan, was served by ravens. She was capable of turning the tide in war. She could turn herself into a raven to survey the battlefield and encourage her chosen side to new levels of brutality. When the battle was over, and ravens descended to the battlefield, she would feast with them on the bodies of the dead.


It is hardly surprising that the reputation of the raven was often a grim one, associated with sorrow and death, with the devil and darkness. In some areas of England, hats are tipped to ravens in order not to offend them and children are told that the Great Black Bird will carry them off if they are bad."

And; "Raven is a royal bird. Alexander the Great was guided across the desert by two ravens sent from heaven. King Arthur was turned into a raven. For over 900 years, ravens have lived in the Tower of London. It is said that if the ravens ever leave the Tower of London, the Tower will fall, and if the Tower falls, the Crown of England to which it is tied will fall - and if the Crown falls, then England will fall. The ravens have never left the Tower of London; clipped wings may have aided in their loyal defense of the Crown."

And; "Half a world away from the Native Americans of the Pacific Northwest, the Norsemen of Scandinavia honored Odin, chief god in the mythology of the Eddas, god of war, of wisdom, and of poetry. Odin was attended by two ravens named Huginn, “Thought,” and Muninn, “Memory.” Their job was to keep him informed of everything that happened on the earth. When Huginn and Muninn, the two ravens, left him, Odin was without thought or memory until they returned. Then they would tell him stories of all they had witnessed or heard. Through the voice of Grimnir, the god muses:


Every morning the two ravens Huginn and Muninn, / are loosed and fly over Midgard; / I always fear that Thought may not wing his way home, / but my fear for Memory is greater.

Because of Odin’s affinity with these birds, the Norse revered all ravens and still tell stories about these birds."

And; "According the the BIBLE, ELIJA was fed by ravens!"


It is from information, such as the little that I have provided above, that I make my suggestions!

Regards,







Edited by opuslola - 05-Jun-2010 at 14:39

DW, it appears that there was found an edifice upon a place said to have been built by Saladin, that showed a representation of what was most likely an Eagle! But, as the site I listed above said, it seems that archaeologists and others, have placed little faith in dating it to the time of Saladin!

Therefore, what ever animal is represented, has not received full support for it being in any matter connected to Saladin!

If no "representation of an eagle" can be connected to Saladin by our archaeologists, etc., than what does that make the "Salain Eagle?", since its origin comes from this undated representation?

How do you explain a painting of Saladin wearing a vestment of "fleur de lis?"

How could any, and I mean, "any" old painter of any generation ever depict this figure wearing such vestments?

While I have no scanner to perform such a representation, and even if I did have one, I seem to be unable to do many things on this site that others of you do on a regular basis!

I do have the book, whereby, one can find said painting!

If necessary, I could even mail you the book, and you can look at it and post it yourself?

Or one of you could easily purchase said book for your self, at or thru, "Barnes & Noble!"

It can be seen on page 104 at, "Battles of the Crusades, 1097-1444"

Note, it refers to the events after the battle of Hattin!

Regards,

Ah! You are good at using the typical historian excusses! Just why can you and others like you ever figure out the the ancients and even those in the Middle Ages, had good sense? Just why are there so many "out of context" mentions? or depictions?

Just how is our view of the past, from centuries later, "better?" Can we not assume that a great deal of ancient documents, as well as paintings, etc., existed 500 or so years ago, that are not now extant?


You use the easy excuses! They may reside upon the edge of the Razor, however?

Regards,

DW, look! Both my wife and I are unable to upload any scanned picture to this site!

Cryptic, God bless his heart, tried to tell me what to do, but since I am mostly computer illiterate, especially after Windows came into being, I just could not follow even his suggestions.

Thus, I am always left out as the only poster here that cannot post what ever I want!

It was only recently that I found out that the funny symbol to the right of the underlined U, actually did something! It is called "the full supply editor" or something to that effect! But then I was left with two green tree symbols that said things that neither my wife or I could understand.

So, here I reside, with tons of photos, etc, to post, via my new scanner and no way to import them to the site as does most anyother asshole who finds there way here!

I was raised in DOS, and since the change, I have been mostly lost!

So, here I sit, with scanned images ready to post, and I can find no way to do so!

It is hell being old and left out!

Perhaps cryptic thought I already knew enough to do something? He gave me directions to places I could not see nor find!

But, perhaps you have a more simple mind, one that matches mine?

"Hope, is just another word for, nothing else left to loose?"

Edited by opuslola - 30-Jun-2010 at 18:47