Solution to the Balkan crisis?
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Topic: Solution to the Balkan crisis?
Posted By: Yugoslav
Subject: Solution to the Balkan crisis?
Date Posted: 07-Feb-2008 at 18:01
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Is there any solution to the problems the Balkans face? Does anyone have an idea? Solving one problem seems only to close and permanently lock broken doors, as well as open new ones. Please discuss here and share your thoughts.
------------- "I know not with what weapons World War 3 will be fought, but World War 4 will be fought with sticks and stones." |
Replies:
Posted By: JanusRook
Date Posted: 07-Feb-2008 at 19:04
Total and utter decimation of all the peoples there and salt the earth so nothing will ever grow again?........ The Balkans like the Middle East seems to be one of those regions whose issues of identity cannot be solved without much pain and suffering by the peoples who live there. I guess it might work if a unilateral definition of borders was recognized by all peoples living in the Balkans, and an agreement that once the borders are established all violent extremist militaristic elements would be destroyed by those in power...unfortunately today it seems that the violent militaristic extremists are the ones who hold power in the Balkans. Oh and Greece needs to stop being childish about certain neighboring states. That might help one of the Balkan problems. ------------- Economic Communist, Political Progressive, Social Conservative. Unless otherwise noted source is wiki. |
Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 07-Feb-2008 at 22:53
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Abolition of the nation state should work. Inclusion of all balkan nations in a multi-ethnic empire that is powerful enough to ensure security: like the Ottoman Empire, which managed to rule the balkans peacefully (given modern standards) for what? 500 years, 1350-1850. ------------- |
Posted By: Vorian
Date Posted: 08-Feb-2008 at 01:01
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What Balkans need? Hmm...less hatred of course. And less interference from the West. @Omar The area was everything but peaceful during the Ottomans. Not mentioning the countless rebellions by pretty much everyone, the countryside was at the mercy of local warlords and raiding parties of thieves. @JanusRook And the FYROM dispute is the least of the Balkan's problems. Might be the only one that does not smell like gunpowder. |
Posted By: malizai_
Date Posted: 08-Feb-2008 at 01:39
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It appears to an outsider like me that the most persistent, and dominant, identity prevalent in the Balkans is one of ethnicity as endorsed by particular religious affiliation. If we further idealize the prevalent European model of nation state based on ethnicity, then the most stable medium of existence seems to be contiguous habitation of the various cluster groups, each forming their separate political entities. Thus a mosaic is transformed into a nice neat palette. IMHO, the only way that ever happens is by population exchanges, forced or facilitated!! ------------- |
Posted By: Theodore Felix
Date Posted: 08-Feb-2008 at 02:01
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The Balkans is where it is because of the mistakes made by the Powers during the late-19th to early-20th century. The drawing of borders on a purely "self-interest" basis without any regard as to the ethnic makeup of specific regions was one of the most egregious acts IMO. It set the stage for the future bloodbaths. ------------- |
Posted By: Spartakus
Date Posted: 08-Feb-2008 at 09:18
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There is no such a thing as "Balkan crisis". 2/3s of the Balkan
territory (Hellas/Greece, Romania, Bulgaria) are living peacefully for
more than 4 decades. The Yugoslav wars were a Yugoslav crisis . Today we still talk about problems in the Western Balkans, not the whole Balkans.
------------- "There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. " --- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996) |
Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 08-Feb-2008 at 09:39
i wonder if such a imaginary utopia can be replicated here in Australia.  I think it would be totally fair that you pay a extra tax for not being allowed to fight. Hey its my empire and as a unified christian state - you Muslim subjects cant be involved in that way, no fighting sound pretty good huh? You don't have to even worry about bearing arms like your christian neighbors do, your not allowed to (fantastic). Make sure you understand your right to property is questionable and up for grabs, serfdom delivers you a life without a mortgage (getting better). So far so good, but be warned this lack of ownership thing may bring about a spiraling cycle of under-investment and poverty in areas set out for your type of people. Sure their will be poor christian so that should make it a little easier, you know 'its not just you guys'. However there is a plus in this also; with the increasing lawlessness in your areas you eventually get a bunch of well armed thieves that will become your future hero's and idols, they may even steal your daughter (if she looks good) and save you a dowry payment. Yeah i know you cant protect yourselves, being law obeying subjects who's to say you cant use a hockey stick or that old revolver you forgot to hand in..... ...but wait there's more, we can provide your kids with a much better opportunity than being mere subjects and serfs, unless being a grand thief is more your style. Seriously will can begin a whole new stolen generation of young christian converts. With this act of charity, we can create more army brigades than before. A stronger christian army that can conquer, sorry, liberate other parts of our islamic neighbors to our north. Hey they're already poor so with the extra security we can bring they should be thanking us 'true believers' their lot in life marginally improves. For our trouble, our tax base increases this isn't any more than a win-win situation if you think about it.  This will most certainly make life better for me and I can assure you that such a new age of peaceful unity, such a great combination of our multi- ethnic backgrounds, is way better than any simpleton nation state..
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Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 08-Feb-2008 at 12:53
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First 3 centuries in Balkans Ottoman Empire offered strong feodal institutions that made all empire inhabitants secure. After those institutions weakened real uprisings started. ------------- . |
Posted By: Theodore Felix
Date Posted: 08-Feb-2008 at 16:16
The problem with the Balkans was that you had various players backed by the big guys who sat and watched the ensuing massacres. ------------- |
Posted By: Yugoslav
Date Posted: 08-Feb-2008 at 16:22
Albania I include and sadly, Greece, Cyprus and Turkey too. I want to find an allgrasping solution, because here everything tragically affects the other. It seems that we all here agree that there is a problem. And what precisely is the problem. The question is - how to remove it? A lot of people have thought through, but none has the whole picture, only individual details.  Years ago experts (journalists, politicians, ....) have gathered up in Washington and dew this map, proposing the creation of unitary nation-states, with even population transportations, if necessary. Back then it would've been a good idea perhaps, but today it is inapplicable. Let's work out a possibility. Any idea (better than this one)? ------------- "I know not with what weapons World War 3 will be fought, but World War 4 will be fought with sticks and stones." |
Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 08-Feb-2008 at 23:51
I don't mean the Ottoman Empire. I'm certainly not about to say the ottoman empire ruled the balkans perfectly. The Ottoman Empire was just an example that came to mind. Probably I should have said the Achaemenids instead (but they aren't perfect either) I mean a multi-ethnic empire which ignores ethnic/religious divides between people and treats them all as subjects. Even if those subjects aren't treated well, as long as they are treated equally. As far as I know, in the Ottoman Empire a serb subject, a greek subject, and a christian albanian were treated equally, even if this left much to be desired. The micro nationalities need to be weakend. ------------- |
Posted By: Theodore Felix
Date Posted: 09-Feb-2008 at 00:23
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That wont work, the last thing the Balkans needs is more unions. In fact, thats what brought the problems in the first place. If anything, one of the biggest objective of Balkan countries and people is how to best isolate themselves from another group. ------------- |
Posted By: Yugoslav
Date Posted: 09-Feb-2008 at 01:42
I beg your pardon?  ------------- "I know not with what weapons World War 3 will be fought, but World War 4 will be fought with sticks and stones." |
Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 09-Feb-2008 at 01:55
The Balkans just need three things, economic development, new history text books written by professionals that try to make truth 'relative' and balanced - maybe focus less on the victim hood and gloriousness of some distant past, and please no more external meddling. The locals have themselves to blame for letting these powers in the door in the first place; celebrating USA support for their causes, looking to Russia for help. This all just makes them puppets for bigger more domineering powers that is far more threatening in the long term than any next door 'other'. When the germans, USA, UK and the Russians mind their own business and stop supporting their 'tribe', things will at least calm down a bit, like elsewhere in Europe. |
Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 09-Feb-2008 at 02:24
 it would be hard to to find an empire that has what your talking about mainly because there weren't created by mutual agreement or equality. A better example would some form of multiculturalism based on what we experience here. Its expensive, the government publishing documents in all needed languages, SBS type TV, and freedom to call yourself whatever you want. Focus on citizenship and less focus on ethnicity; what it means to be a good citizen of Bulgaria, Turkey or Greece rather than what it means to be good Bulgarian, Turk or Greek. Its subtle but important and needs a top down lead mind set change. Mix that in with some decent economic prospects, open and free borders and people simply wont care what side of the border they live on. Union is already coming via the EU, though i agree with Theodore we don't need more unions (nationally). other structures that transcend the nation states that are particular to the region would help bring about a loose Balkan identity. lets face it we share a history, we like bitching about the ottomans  and seem to be more like each other than we are with others. |
Posted By: Theodore Felix
Date Posted: 09-Feb-2008 at 02:25
We are small and weak, we will always have our Baba. Wether they come in the form of good ol' US of A, or mother Russia, or the European Powers, this much is unavoidable. If anything, certain interventions were quite right and necessary. If the US had not involved itself in Bosnia and Kosovo, the slaughter might have been 3-5x worse. If the US wasnt there to eventually check the Croats and Bosniaks, the war might have raged on. If Milosevic had not been toppled, more than 1 million Albs would have been expelled.
I agree, but it depends on the situation. These powers, for instance, allowed Serbia to grow exponentially, at the cost of other ethnicities, and 100 years later it bit them in the ass, a long with thousands of innocent civilians. They are just as much as part of this as Balkanites themselves. Anyway, you want a true solution to the Balkans? Create a new threat, one that cant be compromised with; one that seeks to engulf everybody and nation. I say a giant alien invasion that is purely centered on the Balkans. Then watch "Human" nationalism pop up!!!  ------------- |
Posted By: Chilbudios
Date Posted: 09-Feb-2008 at 11:55
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Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 09-Feb-2008 at 12:51
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Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 09-Feb-2008 at 13:29
What do you mean by that? The only two significant ethnic problems in the middle east were created by the British. ------------- |
Posted By: Chilbudios
Date Posted: 09-Feb-2008 at 13:32
| The politics are in most of the cases advantageous for mightier ones, i.e. those having stronger armies. When Habsburgs, Ottomans, Russian Empire or even USSR grabbed parts of the Balkans, no diplomacy could make them change their plans. |
Posted By: Spartakus
Date Posted: 11-Feb-2008 at 10:28
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The Balkans won't change, nor do they need to. Again, the problem lies in former Yugoslavia, which was exactly a federation of different nations. It's impossible putting all these nations in one Union, except if this Union is not solely Balkan, aka the EU. Do not treat the Balkans as if they are a problematic disease. Again, 2/3s of the Balkan territory lived peacefully for decades. And nowadays , with the EU, things will , hopefully, improve. Yes, there will always be problems. But surely, we are not in 1912-13 anymore. ------------- "There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. " --- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996) |
Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 11-Feb-2008 at 12:11
That was clearly a comment to cause provocation! A certain neighbouring state should learn to behave internationally (like a certain man failed to do in the UN congress yesterday), stop spreading state sponsored propaganda (like the Rosetta stone witnessed on this forum) and respect the fact that many people around it use a certain name for a reason of their own. If you can't understand that the issue implied is not just a name but something much bigger for some, don't put labels about childish behaviours. Thank you! -------------  
SÃ¥ nu tar jag fram (k)niven va! |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 11-Feb-2008 at 18:01
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.... Childish behavior experienced above... If they feel that that is the proper name; then it is. If we feel that the United States of the Great Plains, it is our right to do so, too. Not to mention that that certain neighbor lives on that certain land, and that its neighbors have a laundry closet comparably full of propaganda and wishful thinking as well. ------------- |
Posted By: Parnell
Date Posted: 11-Feb-2008 at 18:26
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Free Kosovo, destroy nationalism and live and let live. And I say this from the comfert of an armchair on a computer 1,500 miles away. ------------- |
Posted By: Vorian
Date Posted: 11-Feb-2008 at 18:55
A quick correction a)The name is also used by two million people of other ethnicity who don't want to give up their name to total strangers b)The neighbor you mention lives in a portion of that certain land, a small one that is. c)Greece does use some propaganda as any other nation but it's nothing compared to the fallacies taught in FYROM schools. |
Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 11-Feb-2008 at 18:57
Start by defining childish first, give an example above and then we can discuss it. I give exact references for my comments.
Then we should all do whatever we feel is proper without thinking twice, nor respecting each other, nor willing to cooperate or discuss. It is like the noizy neighbour who decides to cut some trees with the chainsaw, 4 am in a tuesday morning, without thinking or carrying that people might be sleeping (and having the right to do so).
Action and reaction my friend...We can all do what we feel, but lets not forget we don't live in a dreamworld. Realities are different that what we ideally wish. We shouldn't ignore the practical effects of them. If we think with that logic, in what "Is our right" to do, everyone for himself, the balkans would be ashes now...Seriously...
Maybe we should all refresh our memory of what that certain land is geographically (much smaller in other words -> Orestes, Bottia, Pieria, Emathia, Mygdonia, Elimnia, Lynchistes and later Pelagonia), otherwise we can start discussing endless borders or even a weird displacement depending on the timeframe we examine. New Mexico is not Mexico. As for the rest of the comment, Vorian covered me completely.  -------------
SÃ¥ nu tar jag fram (k)niven va! |
Posted By: JanusRook
Date Posted: 11-Feb-2008 at 19:06
No one confuses Modern Americans as continuing the cultural traditions of Ancient Americans, let that issue be the same over there. Also let's nip this in the bud people as I believe it is still a blacklisted topic, I'm ending it here please everyone else do so. ------------- Economic Communist, Political Progressive, Social Conservative. Unless otherwise noted source is wiki. |
Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 11-Feb-2008 at 19:10
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Thanks Janus! Sorry if I was kinda sharp. I really hope it is as you say it.  -------------
SÃ¥ nu tar jag fram (k)niven va! |
Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 11-Feb-2008 at 19:49
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By my opinion, a big problem, except from the stubbornes everywhere in the Balkans, is the complete failure of third party diplomats. I don't think anyone so far was able to soften any parts. Probably because generic practices of diplomacy were used and none of the diplomats could really see things from the Balkan perspective. In the end, it ended up pissing off people or making them loose faith in those attempts. Sometimes, I feel a solution (as we see it now) would just forward some problems in the future. For the moment, I feel that border changes won't do any good. The focus should be layed on more practical issues. How can you ensure that certain populations, "alien" to the country governing an area can be equaly represented in all aspects of everyday life? Furthermore, I believe the UN should be responsible for monitoring things. So far, you see third party organizations again, of uncertain nature, flerting with anything of interrest. -------------
SÃ¥ nu tar jag fram (k)niven va! |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 12-Feb-2008 at 15:57
And by millions who don't see it as such a big deal. Greece asserts a direct link to that certain name, which is not so direct either. They are not total strangers they've lived there for 1500 years, and its been inhabitated for over 2500, an I'm sure a gene or two of that gene pool mixed with the current one ;) ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 12-Feb-2008 at 16:01
It's childish to offer such a backlash over a simple name. I provided you with a silly example that is as silly as half of Balkan national ideology. We do live in a dreamworld where going over a name is a f---ing reality  . If that is not childish I do not know what else could be?America is a modern term anyway, thus no connection to pre-Columbian America in any way really. ------------- |
Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 12-Feb-2008 at 18:26
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You say that because you see it as a simple name...It's not just a simple name for others, nor is the tention so big just for the name. If that is what you think, then I can see your point, but it does definetely not reflect as a whole the situation. Besides, you could have enumerated many examples of numerous "childish" behaviours from the other part as well, if you wanted to reach a spherical perspective. A name can always be discussed in a civil way. Just in the same way you inform your neighbours about your noisy birthday party. Many things in life, fail because the lack of respect and lack of understanding. As for the reality, people often fail to see the practical results of their actions. -------------
SÃ¥ nu tar jag fram (k)niven va! |
Posted By: Chilbudios
Date Posted: 12-Feb-2008 at 19:07
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Flipper, I live in a country called Romania and I'd find it really weird, not to call it somehow else, if someone will ask me how dare Romanians to usurp the names of the Romans, instead of leaving it for Italians, French or others (and also please note roughly half of my country's territory was not even a Roman province).
The same should go for Moldova, Turkey, Macedonia and several other countries. If only for Macedonia the arguments get heated, then I see it as a problem with those people, not with a country having the name which it has.
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Posted By: Akolouthos
Date Posted: 12-Feb-2008 at 19:47
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Es bih:
As Janus noted, this topic is blacklisted. You will drop the topic immediately. If we are to complain of childishness, we would do best to refrain from having to have the last word after everyone has been told to end a blacklisted discussion.
And that goes for everyone else as well.
-Akolouthos
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Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 12-Feb-2008 at 23:21
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Im sorry but I have to say, making inflammotray comments about a black listed topic and then when it has infammed some of our members, cutting it all off by saying 'its black listed' anway - is not right.
I think better informed and updated views of the two offical positions may be well in order for some in here before making such comments. The issue for the Greek government is not over ownership over the label, rather to make it clear its not exclusive. Dont belive me? read a newspaper
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Posted By: pekau
Date Posted: 13-Feb-2008 at 04:24
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Balkanize...?? ------------- http://swagbucks.com/refer/Malachi"> 
Join us. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 13-Feb-2008 at 07:41
It's been called that forever, and officially so, too. Unless all of the people in the S. State just woke up in the 90s then understandable. And no it is just a name no matter how you put it. It has no spiritual value nor identity value the two are two completely different historic things, only thing is that the former conquered the latter, and the latter adopted that name in order to save face, but beforehand not only despised them but considered them as great examples of barbarism. ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 13-Feb-2008 at 07:43
Yes that is offensive ;), you must change it to Dacia.  ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 13-Feb-2008 at 07:47
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Ako its being used relatively to other countries and other situations of name changes etc... not about the topic that is blacklisted. ------------- |
Posted By: Spartakus
Date Posted: 13-Feb-2008 at 09:25
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The problem with FYROM or RM, is not the name really, it's their claim that they are the only inheritors and ancestors of Ancient Macedonians. The fact that they do not want to change their name..for example make it Slavic Macedonia or Slavo-Macedonia etc only shows their wish to claim a past which is not theirs. And we all know the importance of names in the Balkans, because names, that is identities, are the beginning and the object of propaganda.
------------- "There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. " --- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996) |
Posted By: HEROI
Date Posted: 13-Feb-2008 at 09:51
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In my opinion if there will be a future war in balkans that war will be fought over Macedonia.
In my opinion Greece does not want Macedonia to carry that name because not in a very distant future it might lay claims to the north of Greece.
The balkan solution will come only when people are separated in states were they speak the same language and were they have the same national identity.Only then will their human right be respected,not as a minority in a state who does not recognise them or dehumanise them.
There is no reason whatsoever why the Albanian minority in Macedonia who lives across the border of Albania be part of the modern state of Macedonia,and there is no back-up logic nither.
And i can understand claims of Greece and Albania as to their historical past ,because of their languages,who dont belong to a particular groop of languages,but Macedonians clearly speak Slavonic,and ancient Macedonia clearly was not a Slavonic state.
If slavo-macedonians dont like Bulgaria or Serbia they can make their own slavic state in the Balkans,and nobody is against slavic states,but they can not have historical claims as to ancient Macedonia,thats my opinion.But nither should Greeks have any claim to that nither,Macedonians clearly were not Greeks, and certainly have nothing to do with modern Greece.
I wonder what kind of people are the ones who are convincing the slavic population of Macedonia to be the decendants of Alexander the great.
------------- Me pune,me perpjekje. |
Posted By: Spartakus
Date Posted: 13-Feb-2008 at 09:58
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Whether Ancient Macedonians were Greeks or not, is a large discussion which cannot be conducted here.
------------- "There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. " --- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996) |
Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 13-Feb-2008 at 14:53
This is completely wrong statement! There are plenty of different minorities living in other European states without any conflicts and territorial claims. Balkan solution will come only when people like you change your point of view. What do you suggest? Population exchange? Plenty of people won't go from places they live for centuries. Changes of borders? Typical reason for conflicts. As an Albanian -- will you agree to get rid of territories inhabited by Greek, Vlach, Slavonic and Roma speaking population? What are you going to do with the later? Suggest them to create their own state? Where? ------------- . |
Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 13-Feb-2008 at 16:02
You shouild do a geography lookup on Macedonia before saying that. The area of the FYROM was called Paionia and the western part was a piece of Illyricum, inhabited before the Slavic and Bulgar migrations by Thracians and to the west by Illyrians. Pelagonia is a small part of the country, that became Macedonian province after the Macedonian Kindoms expansion to the north. Macedonia in early years was divided in the following provinces/subkindoms: Upper Macedonia ORESTIS Kastoria province, Greece TYMPHAEA Grevena province, Greece ELIMEIA S. Kozane province, Greece EORDAEA N. Kozane province, Greece LYNKESTIS Florina province, Greece PELAGONIA Monastiri (Bitola), FYROM Lower Macedonia AMPHAXITIS Kilkis province, Greece ALMOPIA Pella province, Greece PIERIA Pieria province, Greece BOTTIAEA Emathia province, Greece KRESTONIA N. Thessalonike province, Greece MYGDONIA E. Thessalonike province, Greece ANTHEMOUS S. Thessalonike province, Greece Expansion under Philippos II BISALTIA E. Thessalonike province, Greece SINTIKE Serres province, Greece ODOMANTIS Drama province, Greece EDONIS Kavalla province, Greece THASSOS Kavalla province, Greece CHALKIDIKE Chalkidike province, Greece SOUTHERN PAEONIA Gevgeli province, FYROM If we speak about medieval times Macedonia was displaced to Thrace for some aqward reason and the administrative areas were divided in Themata (themes) by the Byzantines.
No, it was not during the 90s...It's longer than that, but that's when the world got to know about it.
We conquered Thebes, Athens and some of their allies. We created the Panhellenion league. Could you please explain who saved face? The Athenians? Macedonians? Thebans? As for the dispice, see who the Allies are under the Peloponesian war. During classical age, the relations of Athens and Macedonia are not bad at all. For the way you use the barbarism term i suggest you take a look here: http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=15134 - http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=15134 , pages 3, 4 and 16 for an accurate usage of the term. I will also note one more time es_bih, that the issue is not plainly about the name, but rather about the behaviour and motives. I think Leonidas was very correct pointing out the official stance of Greece on the matter. -------------
SÃ¥ nu tar jag fram (k)niven va! |
Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 13-Feb-2008 at 16:07
Heroi, don't you consider Albanians being descendands of Illyrians? In that case how clear is that, compared to Macedonians? I want to see your definition of clear in this case. Before that have a look on the index of this thread http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=15134&PN=16 - http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=15134&PN=16 just to ensure that we won't repeat the same things over and over again. And please name a primary source of the last 15 years (not from the 19th century) having released something that supports your statement. Thank you -------------
SÃ¥ nu tar jag fram (k)niven va! |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 13-Feb-2008 at 16:09
Slavic Macedonia  , What's next then, Anglic Washington, Germano-Irish-Polish Chicago, It's a name actually thats at issue, they could just say ok you can use it, however, we will discuss this issue of "sole" or "shared" ownership on an intellectual level, not on a political where it has no place whatsoever. ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 13-Feb-2008 at 16:15
Oh yeah... A greater Albania will solve the issue of Balkan instability...right... No, when these nationalist blokes sh-t the f--k up and stop influencing politics for their own gains will there ever be peace. Creating supernations or carving out historical entites etc to create a new nation etc... will only lead to more blood shed not stop it. That is what has been at issue for over a century. You have Kosovo... where both groups have a historic claim per having lived there for several hundred years... now... we also have that entity in one hand, then if it changes to the other, the former will want to reclaim it, and a cyclic form of violence ensues again... instead both sides' nationalist just simply sh--t the f--k up and we move on to a more peaceable resolotion one that allows for both... like what happened under Tito... a shared entity where both groups were respected, and Albanians could practice virtual independence while Serbs could see a map with Kosovo as part of Serbia and make sure that their religious centers in Kosovo are preserved. ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 13-Feb-2008 at 16:17
Two of the same mind ... there is hope after all. Micro states are the worst thing that has happened and is happening to the Balkans. The mindset needs to change and nationalist politicians need to stop having popular and foreign support.------------- |
Posted By: Chilbudios
Date Posted: 13-Feb-2008 at 16:21
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Before the Byzantine theme there was a Roman province of Macedonia which extended on a larger area, thus there's a historical justification (if people really need one) to call several areas/countries/counties/whatever on names derived from Macedonia. |
Posted By: Roberts
Date Posted: 13-Feb-2008 at 16:21
| How about renaming Macedonia to Northern Macedonia and Greece to Southern Macedonia. Would that solve the issue? |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 13-Feb-2008 at 16:21
Your problem is that you are corelating Macedonians and Greeks as some ultra ethnic bloc, which clearly was not the case. Greeks looked down upon Macedonians as the sluggish brutish cousins who never did, while Phillip conqured Greece then the attitude may have changed a bit...Not my problem you have a overly nationalist ideoogy of your past, whats the next thing, The Byzantine Empire was a Greek Empire because some Western writer trying to legitimize the German empire of the Romans said it was even though that former empire found that an insult? ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 13-Feb-2008 at 16:23
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That is as absurd as Albanian nationalists calling Kosovo, Dardania.
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Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 13-Feb-2008 at 16:27
So Greeks as you say, meaning Athenians I guess, were looking down on Aeolians and Megarians as well. So did the Spartans towards Athenians. You didn't spend a minute checking out an issue analyzed briefly on this site and continue to post inaccuracies. In the end you accuse me of having the nationalist ideology. That is an easy way of defence, having no real effect though on a rhetorical level. Shall I accuse you for ignorance? I don't think that would be proper. I'd rather suggest you doing a good lookup before making statements and be willing to discuss and analyze things with you. We are members of a history community and I believe that when we all deal with historical issues, we shouldn't be more carefull in making statements about a matter. That would be: 1. Statement / View 2. Analysis 3. Sources If you want to comment the historical issue i suggest you participate on the thead i refered to, after reading the index which covers all issues discussed. Just to avoid repetitions of the same things. Legacy issues, as I would call the barbarism comment of yours. -------------
SÃ¥ nu tar jag fram (k)niven va! |
Posted By: Seko
Date Posted: 13-Feb-2008 at 16:41
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Since this topic has veered into the ever so intense domain of a previously blacklisted topic I shall move it to our subforum, the Minefield. Please continue your discussions there. To top it all you can now discuss FYR Macedonia without thinking you have violating the CoC. Just something to keep in mind - maintain your civility towards eachother. ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 13-Feb-2008 at 18:12
You can accuse me of ignorance all you want... of course there was rivalry among city states, there was a considerable level of rivalry among dozens of Turkic emirates in Anatolia until the Ottomans won gained hegemony. The fact remains that Macedonia was a seperate entity, of course with a heavy Greek influence in its primacy due to the fact that its own people and its own intellectual base was not so well developed. I never disputed that they have no Greek influence or that they are not distantly related, however, to say A is B thus C is A is absurd. Yes, when one tends to fight so passionately for a insignificant name, that would be deemed nationalism... The issue is really not over who is right or who is wrong, it is childish to the core, it is a name, if they use it, as they have for a while now to call that country that; that in itself should have no corelation to any intellectual discussions at hand about the authenticity of this or that theory either. It is a freaking name for God's sake. Should we condemn Austrians for calling their country Osterreich instead of Austria as a lot of other countries call them? No.. it would be ridicoulos, now if they were arguing if the Austrians were German or not, then still we can't put that intellectual discussion into a political perspective, we had to keep level headed and use a bit of common sense at the end of the day and understand all it is is a freaking name. As long as you and others keep this stance both sides will quarrel over nothing for decades to come. Yes there is a lot wrong with the Macedonian side's take, too. Why?, well for one they are not the sole inheritors of that regions gene pool, so are plenty of other peoples whose modern nation states inhabit parts of Macedonia today. Nevertheless, to say that they in no way shape or form have Macedonian heritage is wrong too. Most of the Peloponesus has non Greek origin in modern times should we deem them non-Greek, of course not because they have mixed origins alongside their Greek, and Greek Culture. Now the Macedonians do not necessarily have a Macedonian culture as it is hard in itself to single that out, but perhaps some folk customs in rulral regions do retain something. It is true for example in Yugoslavian regions that there are carryover Illyrian traditions so why not the same for Macedonia's case. Admitting that won't force you to say that they are completly right, nor will letting them use the name internationally without picking a fight like 2 teenagers. It is not rocket science, its common sense. A name is a name. There is no reason to attach so much intellectual crap to it on a political level. A sound intellectual argument can defeat an absurd one any day, we have had instances of afrocentrism, and other forms of rather un intellectual thought here on the forum and people posted away at the extensive lack of credibility. Greek scholars can do that too if they feel the need to. HOwever, what does that have to do with them using the name for the country? Nothing, because I have asked that question and every single person so far with feelings that it should not gives me the same intellectual basis which has nothing to do, nor is 100% correct either. Noting this we can see that the Balkans wont have any peace for at least a century to come. ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 13-Feb-2008 at 18:21
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Besides didn't Greek athetes protest and attempt to boycot events where Phillip wanted to participate in on the account that they deemed him a barbarian?
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Posted By: Ponce de Leon
Date Posted: 13-Feb-2008 at 18:42
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Yall want a solution to the Balkan crisis? Here are some of my helpful tips:
First off, make sure all bathroom stalls have enough toilet paper. Everybody hates it when they go into a stall and find out that all their roles have been used. It makes everybody super pissed. Second, ban the use of flags. The material used to make them is wasted to represent political and national symbols instead of making the latest design in fashion, or to make a cozy blanket to sleep in. Some people like seeing flags that represent "them," but not everybody. Last tip, if you want peace in the balkans, hand out free drugs to all households. Everybody will be too high to even think about lifting a gun instead of grabbing some munchies |
Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 13-Feb-2008 at 19:10
Like Molossia, Aetolia, Thessaly, Athens & Alies, Sparta, Argos, Arcadia, Crete, Cyprus, Lesbos, the cities of Sicely and many more. Your point after this?
Heavy Greek influence. Can you point out when Hellenization occured then? Nobody has ever prooven Hellenization. Assumptions were many back in the days. One of the oldest established Greek cities, discovered in the early 80s called Aiani, was the capital of one of the Upper Macedonian subkindoms. The bibliography about it was first released in the 21rst century however http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aiani - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aiani Now, can we speak of Hellenization in the 14th century BC? Note that the Kindom of Macedonia was created by the Argeads much later... http://concise.britannica.com/ebc/art-84137/Ancient-artifacts-that-have-been-discovered-in-Aiani-prove-that - http://concise.britannica.com/ebc/art-84137/Ancient-artifacts-that-have-been-discovered-in-Aiani-prove-that If you want to continue about the historical matters of the ancient history of the area you know were to discuss it. I thought we were supposed to discuss balkan crisis here.
Don't put words in my mouth. Most Greeks here have pointed out to you that it is not a simple name issue, but the motives and actions behind that camouflage. We've seen a lot, to be annoyed. Being called a Grkman (A Slavomacedonian who wants to be Greek), Ethiopian and other things may piss someone off. It is more a matter of reacting to disrespectfull behaviours, than nationalism.
There is something called dialog...To avoid that and sneak around someones back is more childish than anything. Again, you return to the name issue instead of the practical deeper problems.
Or Hellas being called Greece, instead of Hellas, a name which only Norway and Cyprus use as far as I know. Remember the Graikoi were a tribe from Epirus and Boiotia. They were Hellenes, but all Hellenes were not Graikoi. The name was equaled later to Hellenes, since they were amongst the first tribes to use that ethnic term.
Wouldn't Paionia would be more correct geographically? As for the Yugoslavian regions, let me remind you that in the 18th century there was a romantic period where Serbs were the Illyrians. Even Greek sources refer to Serbo-Croatian language as Illyriki (Illyrian) [@HEROI: remember we're talking about Romantism, not facts].
Again...Who is unwilling to discuss?
There are places called Athens, Sparta, Syracuse, Olympus around the world. Even a country called Molossia. Do you see any reactions from Greece for that? If the issue was just a name and nothing more, then you would see Greece accusing many states around the world for using names improperly. Doesn't thank make you think at all?Es Bih, i believe you simply attach the problem on a surface called "the name". Remember, that Greece does not at this point deny the usage of the term "Macedonia", as long as it is used in a reasonable way and is accompanied with a describing word, distinguishing it from the geographic area of the historic region. Also remember that the international diplomats do not urge Greece to agree on a solution. It is the other part that is being urged to behave in the terms of international diplomacy. -------------
SÃ¥ nu tar jag fram (k)niven va! |
Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 13-Feb-2008 at 19:13
Why don't you check out the 16 pages thread containing all the answers to your questions? 1. It was not Philip. It was his ancestor Alexander I. 2. Some people protested, like they always did when they received strong competition. That is why they had the Hellenodikai, a jury examining the right of an athlete to participate in the Olympics, where only Hellenes could participate. 3. There was no doubt about Alexanders I heritage and he participated. May I ask you to post such questions, on the other thread, if you believe they haven't been answered already there? http://allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=15134 - http://allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=15134 -------------
SÃ¥ nu tar jag fram (k)niven va! |
Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 13-Feb-2008 at 19:15
In the toilet?  ------------- . |
Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 13-Feb-2008 at 19:33
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SÃ¥ nu tar jag fram (k)niven va! |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 13-Feb-2008 at 20:14
But see, it is a simple name issue... if you view it as such you would not have this conflict, because as I have posted earlier I agree with some of what you say as well, and I am looking at this from a purely neutral perspective, too. The name is that a name. Bar Russians, Serbs, and half the rest of the world from using Greek names too then... do you see what path we are traveling now when we assume ownership of names or a region that is Macedonia now, there are Greek parts of Macedonia as well are there not, call them that in retaliation. Nevertheless, do not tell me scholarly arguments that have no corelation with politics. They are valid if they are backed up by sources and credible ones at that that is great and well, and that can be used as a medium to bring out a middle ground in historiagraphy. Nevertheless, we have to look at the political scope of things that we are looking at here. Macedonia can call itself that if it chooses too it is a natural right, and it should do so. Greece should accept that and suck it up. That does not make either side right or wrong. Its just a name. The history of the name is and should remain relegated to cultural, and to historical-academic discussions, including sites like this, not this post however since it is about the political aspect. You keep persisting on pointing out academics when academics and a country's name should not be corelated. Nor have much in common. Academics are one thing where contesting fabolous claims should be done. A country's name however should not be intertwined in this at all from either side. Yes Macedonians have formulated some rather precarious posts that are not in the realm of authetnic academics, but Greeks do as well. Fact is that that region had been called that, it may be called that again now, its for the people there to decide, as far as who is exclusively owning the rights to that heritage or if it is shared, or anything related to that should be relegated outside of politics. ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 13-Feb-2008 at 20:17
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I will post in the other thread too when I find some more time. Not ignorant at all, nor do I have a preference for either side's claims. Just hoping common sense becomes more common in the Balkans and the region stops quarreling and progresses.
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Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 13-Feb-2008 at 20:24
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Es Bin... You said it yourself. We should ban all the world for names if the case was such. From that you should yourself conclude it is not that much the name actually. It is much more. That is my point from the start. As for the academic side...I only use international academics for a refference . Not just the brittish and americans, but others as well. Besides, the best thing is to be able to locate the original source, present it as a whole (and not selectively) and find cross references. That's the fun part with history. For me at least.-------------
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 13-Feb-2008 at 20:34
? No, we should let people call themselves as they please. I have no right to deem what someone else may either feel like or feel to call themselves. 2nd. Yes my point exactly. The academic world should not bicker about the right or wrong use of a country's name. However, it should bicker about the right or wrong thesis and statements made in case of Macedonian heritage. ------------- |
Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 13-Feb-2008 at 20:41
As long as that is being done in a respectfull manner. Your pleasure might be someone elses unpleasure. I have repeated that so many times now. Basic principles of human relations. Besides, what is more important? A) Mutual respect, b) Free will or c) a combination of both? I go with C. What about you?
I agree with that fully. Therefore, i collect all descent material on that matter and not parrot things written 70-100 years ago, presenting it as the correct thesis in year 2008. -------------
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Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 14-Feb-2008 at 12:42
This is a revised and compromised position, quite reasonable, that allows two countries to move along with the same name intact, but with no total or clear claim. However this is also rejected out right by FYROM who has now moved clearly over to the uncompromising stance, much to the frustration of its US sponsor. Hence why i find it frustrating that Greece gets accused of immaturity, its saying that the label must be used in a way that is not exclusive and is clearly inclusive. Diplomatically, Greece has now claimed enough of the moderate ground to stay where it is with out too much pressure, while FYROM is in the very tough corner with (much needed) EU/NATO membership on hold and a population now convinced of this 'birth right' over their neighbors. Excessive and wrong propganda has now come back to roost. |
Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 14-Feb-2008 at 12:53
...and yes Hero would you hand over parts of your south for parts of FYROM? such logic cuts both ways, though Albania would benefit the most from border revisions based on language... so i guess you wouldn't complain to much |
Posted By: Theodore Felix
Date Posted: 14-Feb-2008 at 16:42
That wouldnt be feasable since in all cases the minorities in Albania are in entirely mixed areas. So, for instance, you have Himara(I think in time Himara will be re-assimilated into the Albanian sphere, the problem being that Alb administration ignores it) that considers itself Greek, next to it are a vast number of Albanian speaking villages(ex: Lazarati). In the further south you have Greek speaking villages such as Dropulli next to the Muslim dominated Konispol. Also, minorities fail to have any real significance in the urban life, where Albanian(especially Muslim ones) dominate. The area with the most amount of Vlachs(near Korca) is entirely Albanian dominated while the Vlachs themselves are a complete mess in terms of social cohesion(most not being able to speak a word of the language and are fully assimilated into Albanian, while others consider themselves Greek, another set Romanian etc.). The Slavs also do not have any real center. The Bulgarian minority is dispersed around the Ohrid area while the Serb/Montenegrins can barely hold on to the single village they have left while the Muslim Slavs are almost entirely assimilated into the urban sphere. So in all cases, if the border revisions were made, Albania would lose, at best, a few villages in the complete south. Most other areas could not separate since Albanians hold strategic areas near them. Nevertheless, destroying FYROM at this time is inconceivable and would not never be allowed by the EU, so my message to the Albs there is just: push for all the rights that you can conceive of, but realize the reality. And to all the Balkans: Get used to the world we are in now, it aint changing. The only real problem I cant see a solution to is Bosnia, which, considering that its even more divided now, will not be solved anytime soon.
I personally dont believe in appeasement and in simply satisfying the national rhetoric of a given nations simply so as to "keep everyone quiet". Your just giving us the Serbian view of it all while failing to account for the fact that the need to "see a map with Kosovo as part of Serbia" was the reason for the bloodshed there since 1912. You are giving me the view of a Bosnian who wants to see his fledgling nation survive. I see this talk of "micronations" as simply that, your hope that Bosnia can stay united. My interest is against unified entities and more on divided nation-states. We both have our own interests, playing the "righteous" game simply will not work. ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 14-Feb-2008 at 19:10
I am sorry but that stance sounds childish to me. Republic of Macedonia, Macedonian Republic neither actually truly denote that they are the sole Macedonia. Just by using simple logic one can note that is not the case. If it were The Sole Republic of Macedonia, the Sole Macedonian Republic, the True Macedonia, etc... then it would actually logically denote a single Macedonia. Should we call Istanbul the Former Constantinopolitian city of Istanbul? The former part of the Roman Empire's province of Italia the republic of Italy? If they do not use a sole, or single, or anything that actually denotes that then it is not the only one. Greece has the right to rename itself Macedonia too by all means if it feels that its rights are being threatened. or the Macedono-Hellenic republic. ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 14-Feb-2008 at 19:15
I got with c too of course. Neither extreme is very productive. However, calling it Macedonia is feasible to me, if they renamed it to the "Single nation of Macedonia" "The True Macedonia" etc... then that creates a problem of authenticity. Simply Macedonia does not contain any logical operator that would make it specifically mean the Sole. Calling it FYROM is silly to me. I know it is the former republic of Yugoslavia, however now in the present tense it is stil Macedonia, without being in Yu anymore. I don't need a quick history lesson when I read a country's name either. Forcing them to call it that too is not feasible as it is not in line with C. ------------- |
Posted By: Akolouthos
Date Posted: 14-Feb-2008 at 19:16
Not the case at all, es bih; at least not in the way you were discussing it. The point is now purely academic, however, as the topic has justly been moved to the minefield.
-Akolouthos
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 14-Feb-2008 at 19:26
Which one am I giving you now the Serbian view or the Bosnian view, or am I giving you a neutral perspective. I have discussed this issue with others and I have come up with my own view. You can adress Yugoslav who participates in this forum and will get confirmation that I have no higher schemes in saying this. The fact is that it is not such a easily solvable problem. You can't appease either site fully for it will leave the other empty handed. The Serbs have a viable reason to want to preserve some sort of soverignty even it if is only virtual to make sure that they have access to their religious sites and that they are within some sort of border. The Albanians have a viable want to seperate, they have been mistreated, and the constitution, which had been drafted by Tito allowed them freedom to maintain their cultural and ethnic reality within the borders of Yugoslavia. You also have political realities. It has been within Serbia for the last century in one form or another. It has never really been a part of Albania. Albanians have lived there for centures alongside Serbs. You are not for appeasement? Then the other side can say, well then the talks are over it is ours and you have no other choice, becuase you know that means they can say that they are not for appeasement either. Bosnia itself has nothing to do with this. I am not even sure what the official stance of the Bosnian government is on this issue. Yes there is political unrest in Bosnia, that is not due to any historical reality, that is due to a Failed Dayton Accord that created makeshift boundaries where they did not exist ever in history. They created a problem by not wanting to implement a strong national government. Bosnia will not split because it has historically been united in one form or another no matter the outcome of Kosovo, so that is not my issue here. Even if that were the case it would not be within my parameters to actually stop any of it by voicing my opinion. So in any case you can rest assured that my opinion is my opinion not constructed by wishful thinking because that would not be sound nor logical since I cannot change anything myself with my opinion. I don't like the Electoral College either, saying it should be abandoned won't make it so, if it were in a political specturm I would voice my strong opinion against it. If it is asked in a forum I will. However, if it means that someone I want will get elected because it is abolished will not change the fact that it will not so even if I were in support of it but wanted to abolish it for that reason that would not be sound and I would not be on here spouting some sort of wishful thinking. If you ask me if I think it should exist or not, I will tell you my real opinon, not something based on an ulterior motive. ------------- |
Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 14-Feb-2008 at 19:28
Well, i personaly don't suggest FYROM, but that was never stated here. I don't agree with the plain name either. However, Slavomacedonia, Nova Macedonia or something discribing accompanied by that name is cool by me. As I told you I don't mind the name that much as the motives and behaviour. If there was a clean past over that issue, sure i wouldn't hesitate that much. -------------
SÃ¥ nu tar jag fram (k)niven va! |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 14-Feb-2008 at 19:34
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Actually I am against micro states because I believe that they are not the solution to our problems. And we can see how you are for nation states but will not give up Albanian land. Laughable. If you are for that then you will accept the movement of Albanians into newly aquired land and letting those parts with Greek populations, etc go. That stance would only cause more bloodshed not solve it. A sense of citizen ship and a sense of a general Balkan unity and will to co-operate will solve more things than that. PS: If I had the choice between a Yugoslavia or 6 independent republics, I would choose the former not the latter . ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 14-Feb-2008 at 19:35
Nova Macedonia could work... Slavo could not, they are not all slavs, nor is Slav the only group in its gene pool, it is the main language group however. ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 14-Feb-2008 at 19:36
Then I apologize, my intentions were neither to start a blacklisted discussion nor to instigate one. My intentions are on the use of the name, and what a proper course of action would be that would solve the issue. ------------- |
Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 14-Feb-2008 at 19:37
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I know that the Slavo term would be a problem for the Albanians. On the other side, the Albanians don't care much about the name issue, since their problems are different. For them a part of the area is Illyria. You know the story that follows.
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SÃ¥ nu tar jag fram (k)niven va! |
Posted By: Theodore Felix
Date Posted: 14-Feb-2008 at 22:31
None of us are neutral. You know that as well as I. ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 14-Feb-2008 at 23:28
If you say so... I am really giving you an answer composed under the ideologies of a secret Bosno-Serbian plan to take over the Balkans ------------- |
Posted By: Theodore Felix
Date Posted: 14-Feb-2008 at 23:58
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Fact is that you took a particular stand on the issue, one that stated that you were against independence and for autonomy... with this you are obviously going against the wishes of one party. If so, how can you say that you are neutral?
Even if you firmly believe it, Balkans is Balkans and events tie us all. Even me, as apathetic as I am towards Bosnia, cant pretend to be neutral. ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 15-Feb-2008 at 00:49
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I did not take a stance as of yet... I gave a viable example that might work
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Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 15-Feb-2008 at 01:30
The subtleties are enough to infer certain rights of ownership even if its not explicity labeled. Such things may seem trivial to you and even more so by ill-informed observers making judgements based more on sentiment, rather than the stated positions but - in a propaganda charged sitution, with major historical revisionism and certain maps being circulated by (or out from) FYROM - the 'childishness' of the Greeks may be put into a more understandable context. This compromise at least clears up, with no misunderstanding whatsover, that explictly and implicitly they are a one type of macedonian. This future proofs any complications going forward. If the FYROM doesnt want to give that total assurance to Greece, then this only will cause more suspicions.
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 15-Feb-2008 at 06:05
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I understand that position as well. There are quite a few maps and histories circulating around the Balkans that are not so authentic and arouse sentiments of others. I understand that Greece wants to claim ownership of the name as well. However, this is not the right way either. In my mind Macedonia is simple enough, FYROM is wrong; however, what name would they use that would appease both sides enough that both could agree to it? ------------- |
Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 15-Feb-2008 at 06:23
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Just a note, following Leonidas posts about suspicions. Remember that the whole thing did not start good at all from the begining. Very bad moves were made. 1. When you are about to gain autonomy and create your state, the first thing that is sensibe to do is to send your foreign minister to your neighbours and create some good relations. Maybe, say "you know guys, we're getting independend and we plan to do this and that". 2. The first provocation from day 1, was the use of a tetrachtys sun. That is ofcourse the emblem of Vergina, but it is as well a religious symbol of the Greeks. Those two points were definetely not good moves to make a good start. -------------
SÃ¥ nu tar jag fram (k)niven va! |
Posted By: Suren
Date Posted: 15-Feb-2008 at 06:31
An atomic bomb the same answer for Middle east conflict!  ------------- Anfører |
Posted By: Spartakus
Date Posted: 15-Feb-2008 at 07:39
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Well, if we bomb the Balkans, then i will die. And i do not like that outcome.
------------- "There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. " --- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996) |
Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 15-Feb-2008 at 08:43
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I will die too and all the nice coasts of the adriatic, ionian, aegian and black sea will be vanished. Ok, but seriously now. If we look on the past of Greece and Bulgaria. What was the key factor to change completely the situation to a good relationship? We should start from the successfull senarios maybe and collect as much usefull information as possible. -------------
SÃ¥ nu tar jag fram (k)niven va! |
Posted By: xristar
Date Posted: 15-Feb-2008 at 09:25
Hmm, I don't know how long lasting this frienship will be. I'd say, we became friends after lot's of wars, which resulted in eliminating minority presence to both countries. We also have a common enemy. Bulgaria faces huge internal problems, to look southwards. Being both in the EU I think works very positively, because one of Bulgaria's biggest goals was to gain access to the Aegean, and thus to the Mediterranean, without having to cross through Turkey. That's why Serbia, being an ally of Greece was given free access to Thessaloniki port since the Blakan wars. With EU regulations, Bulgaria has no limitations in using Greek ports for trading. ------------- 
Defeat allows no explanation Victory needs none. It insults the dead when you treat life carelessly. |
Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 15-Feb-2008 at 10:51
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Xristar, what makes you have doubts about the lasting period of good Greco-Bulgarian relations? What could end it right now? Both Serbia and Bulgaria were Greece allies until that alliance broke up when they pushed the Ottomans away from the Balkans. The breaking up resulted the blocking of the aegian access to Bulgaria and free access to Serbia who remained faithfull. This is solved for a long time now and i don't see any reason why it could happen again. The keys to improved relations have been many. As you said, a common "enemy" and the Bulgarian pro-Greek support in the 70s. Bulgaria showed generally a very improved behaviour towards Greece even during communism years. This was later followed by Greek support when the communist regime ended. The blockade had been removed and the trading relations flourished. At the time speaking Russia-Bulgaria-Greece become main actors in the transportation of natural gass to southern europe. So far, i don't see any worries. What could happen do you think? -------------
SÃ¥ nu tar jag fram (k)niven va! |
Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 15-Feb-2008 at 11:09
I am not sure in what I am going to write but I guess that actually Bulgaria does not have much to trade via Mediterranean Sea. Last 50 years all produced stocks went to SU via Black Sea or by trains and tracks. In any case if something is traded Bulgaria most likely use Greek trade fleet for that so Greece is benefiting from that.
One more thing, Leonidas and other claimed that Greece is against monopolizing of the name and Macedonian herritage by Slav Macedonians and might share it with them. I do not know about official Greek state position but my experience with discussion with Greeks is totaly opposite. You guys(at least most I ever told to) are ready to monopolize all ancient herritage in the Balkans.  Somewhere in depth of you sits an opinion that everything was either Greek or Hellenized untill all sorts of barbars came to be influenced by shining Greek civilization by ethnic cleansing  Many Greeks simply repeate it like a mantra. Why do I mention this? Because it is your national myth which is neither true nor allows you to establish trully good relationships with your neighbours. Exactly as ours stereotypes about you. ------------- . |
Posted By: xristar
Date Posted: 15-Feb-2008 at 12:33
Totally correct. Greeks as a people believe they should have the monoply on the name, but the official state has made a copromise (although it had been officially declared by all greek parties that Greece shall never accept a name with the term 'Macedonia' in it, in mid '90s) and accepted the use of 'Macedonia' IN the name.
I don't know. Things change. -------------
Defeat allows no explanation Victory needs none. It insults the dead when you treat life carelessly. |
Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 15-Feb-2008 at 12:40
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+ people are not diplomats, they don't care about the practical solutions and obviously they are very pissed off.
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SÃ¥ nu tar jag fram (k)niven va! |
Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 16-Feb-2008 at 04:34
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Posted By: HEROI
Date Posted: 17-Feb-2008 at 02:55
Where did i sugest population exchange?????????
Your answer has nothing to do with my previous post anyway,i think you just got my post there and answered something that has no logical conection with what i have posted.
------------- Me pune,me perpjekje. |
Posted By: HEROI
Date Posted: 17-Feb-2008 at 03:19
Who spoke about greater Albania here???? And what do you call greater Albania?
Because logicaly speaking,a people that speak the same language and has the same national identity,should be living in a single national state,is that so nationalistic????But even thou i did not mention that and i dont suport that for the sake of peace in the balkans.
Of the terms GREATER in the Balkans,only Albanias is unfair,because the only GREATER in the balkans is the so called GREATER Albania who actually includes a overwelming majority of Albanians in historicaly Albanian lands.
There are not being carved supernationes ,and certainly there are no new nations being created there.
There never existed before 1912 a Serb state that included Kosovo.While the Kosovans Albanian identity is not being created now ,but it has existed before the creation of the Serb state.Kosovans never agreed Serb rule for one day,that is why there is no more reason to be under that rule,who produces Miloshevic's,armies that kill and rape.Kosovo can not go back to that,there is no reason why,there is no logic,there is no obligation,be it legal or moral.
When you find me a single map of a Serb state before 1912 that includes Kosovo,i will doubt my opinion,but ther simply does not exist one.The fight of Kosovans for indipendence started from the day Kosovo was given to Serbia out of the blue to serve Russian influence in the balkans.It is a well documented strugle.
But even if we leave history for a moment.Read this.
THERE IS A REGION WITH MORE THEN 90% ALBANIANS WHO DO NOT WISH TO BE RULED BY A STATE THAT HAS SISTEMATICALY DISCRIMINATED,OPRESSED THEM FOR A CENTURY,THAT JUST TEN YEARS AGO PLANED A FAILED GENOCIDE,WITH TENS OF THOUSENDS DEAD,THOUSENDS RAPED AND THOUSENDS MISSING.NOT ONLY IT HAS NOT APOLOGISED ,BUT IT CONTINUES TO THIS DAY A SISTEMATIC PROPAGANDA ON ALL LEVELS OF DIPLOMACY AND ASPECTS OF MEDIA TO MAKE ITSELF LOOK LIKE THE VICTIM,TO FORGET THE PAIN IT HAS CAUSED TO OTHERS AND TO DISINFORM AND MISSINFORM WITH CONTEMPT ABOUT ANYTHING ALBANIAN. AND WITH WHAT SANE LOGIC DO YOU OR ANYBODY EXPECT PEOPLE OF KOSOVO TO GO BACK UNDER THE RULE OF THAT STATE??THEY WONT,THAT HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR THIS TO LONG,AND IS JUST FAIR THAT THEY GET IT.
------------- Me pune,me perpjekje. |
Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 17-Feb-2008 at 16:41
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Heroi do you think all these "GREAT" things bring peace into the Balkans?
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SÃ¥ nu tar jag fram (k)niven va! |
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 18-Feb-2008 at 00:56
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HEROI how many Albanians are there outside Albania? where do they reside in the Balkans?
You say its Albanians right to live under Albanian rule, then what about minorities in Albania?
------------- “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.” Albert Pine |
Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 18-Feb-2008 at 01:06
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i expect Heroi will be in full support to hand over some villagers, and we'll take the Vlachs as well
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