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Solution to the Balkan crisis?

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  Quote Yugoslav Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Solution to the Balkan crisis?
    Posted: 07-Feb-2008 at 18:01
Is there any solution to the problems the Balkans face? Does anyone have an idea? Solving one problem seems only to close and permanently lock broken doors, as well as open new ones. Please discuss here and share your thoughts. 
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  Quote JanusRook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Feb-2008 at 19:04
Is there any solution to the problems the Balkans face?


Total and utter decimation of all the peoples there and salt the earth so nothing will ever grow again?........

The Balkans like the Middle East seems to be one of those regions whose issues of identity cannot be solved without much pain and suffering by the peoples who live there. I guess it might work if a unilateral definition of borders was recognized by all peoples living in the Balkans, and an agreement that once the borders are established all violent extremist militaristic elements would be destroyed by those in power...unfortunately today it seems that the violent militaristic extremists are the ones who hold power in the Balkans.

Oh and Greece needs to stop being childish about certain neighboring states. That might help one of the Balkan problems.
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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Feb-2008 at 22:53
Abolition of the nation state should work.

Inclusion of all balkan nations in a multi-ethnic empire that is powerful enough to ensure security: like the Ottoman Empire, which managed to rule the balkans peacefully (given modern standards) for what? 500 years, 1350-1850.
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  Quote Vorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Feb-2008 at 01:01
What Balkans need?

Hmm...less hatred of course.

And less interference from the West.

@Omar

The area was everything but peaceful during the Ottomans. Not mentioning the countless rebellions by pretty much everyone, the countryside was at the mercy of local warlords and raiding parties of thieves.

@JanusRook

And the FYROM dispute is the least of the Balkan's problems. Might be the only one that does not smell like gunpowder.
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  Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Feb-2008 at 01:39
It appears to an outsider like me that the most persistent, and dominant, identity prevalent in the Balkans is one of ethnicity as endorsed by particular religious affiliation. If we further idealize the prevalent European model of nation state based on ethnicity, then the most stable medium of existence seems to be contiguous habitation of the various cluster groups, each forming their separate political entities. Thus a mosaic is transformed into a nice neat palette. IMHO, the only way that ever happens is by population exchanges, forced or facilitated!!

Edited by malizai_ - 08-Feb-2008 at 01:43
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  Quote Theodore Felix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Feb-2008 at 02:01
The Balkans is where it is because of the mistakes made by the Powers during the late-19th to early-20th century. The drawing of borders on a purely "self-interest" basis without any regard as to the ethnic makeup of specific regions was one of the most egregious acts IMO. It set the stage for the future bloodbaths.

Edited by Theodore Felix - 08-Feb-2008 at 02:01
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  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Feb-2008 at 09:18
There is no such a thing as "Balkan crisis". 2/3s of the Balkan territory (Hellas/Greece, Romania, Bulgaria) are living peacefully for more than 4 decades. The Yugoslav wars were a Yugoslav crisis . Today we still talk about problems in the Western Balkans, not the whole Balkans.

Edited by Spartakus - 08-Feb-2008 at 09:21
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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Feb-2008 at 09:39
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

Abolition of the nation state should work.

Inclusion of all balkan nations in a multi-ethnic empire that is powerful enough to ensure security: like the Ottoman Empire, which managed to rule the balkans peacefully (given modern standards) for what? 500 years, 1350-1850.
it was an islamic state where the native Christians subjects were second class citizens and were killed if they resisted... hmm. Yes, many Armenians and Greeks were successful merchants but the regular peasant would not be so enthusiastic about your description.

i wonder if such a imaginary utopia can be replicated here in Australia.Ermm

I think it would be totally fair that you pay a extra tax for not being allowed to fight. Hey its my empire and as a unified christian state - you Muslim subjects cant be involved in that way, no fighting sound pretty good huh? You don't have to even worry about bearing arms like your christian neighbors do, your not allowed to (fantastic). Make sure you understand your right to property is questionable and up for grabs, serfdom delivers you a life without a mortgage (getting better).  So far so good,  but be warned this lack of ownership thing may bring about a spiraling cycle of under-investment and poverty in areas set out for your type of people. Sure their will be poor christian so that should make it a little easier, you know 'its not just you guys'. However there is a plus in this also; with the increasing lawlessness in your areas you eventually get a bunch of well armed thieves that will become your future hero's and idols, they may even steal your daughter (if she looks good) and save you a dowry payment. Yeah i know you cant protect yourselves, being law obeying subjects who's to say you cant use a hockey stick or that old revolver you forgot to hand in.....

...but wait there's more, we can provide your kids with a much better opportunity than being mere subjects and serfs, unless being a grand thief is more your style. Seriously will can begin a whole new stolen generation of young christian converts. With this act of charity, we can create more army brigades than before. A stronger christian army that can conquer, sorry, liberate other parts of our islamic neighbors to our north. Hey they're already poor so with the extra security we can bring they should be thanking us 'true believers' their lot in life marginally improves. For our trouble, our tax base increases this isn't any more than a win-win situation if you think about it.Lamp  

This will most certainly make life better for me and I can assure you that such a new age of peaceful unity, such a great combination of our multi- ethnic backgrounds, is way better than any simpleton nation state..

Originally posted by Theodore Felix

The Balkans is where it is because of the mistakes made by the Powers during the late-19th to early-20th century. The drawing of borders on a purely "self-interest" basis without any regard as to the ethnic makeup of specific regions was one of the most egregious acts IMO. It set the stage for the future bloodbaths.
This is true for other parts of the world; the M/east and  Africa come to mind


Edited by Leonidas - 08-Feb-2008 at 09:49
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Feb-2008 at 12:53
First 3 centuries in Balkans Ottoman Empire offered strong feodal institutions that made all empire inhabitants secure. After those institutions weakened real uprisings started.
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  Quote Theodore Felix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Feb-2008 at 16:16
This is true for other parts of the world; the M/east and Africa come to mind


The problem with the Balkans was that you had various players backed by the big guys who sat and watched the ensuing massacres.
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  Quote Yugoslav Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Feb-2008 at 16:22
Originally posted by Spartakus

There is no such a thing as "Balkan crisis". 2/3s of the Balkan territory (Hellas/Greece, Romania, Bulgaria) are living peacefully for more than 4 decades. The Yugoslav wars were a Yugoslav crisis . Today we still talk about problems in the Western Balkans, not the whole Balkans.


Albania I include and sadly, Greece, Cyprus and Turkey too. I want to find an allgrasping solution, because here everything tragically affects the other.

It seems that we all here agree that there is a problem. And what precisely is the problem. The question is - how to remove it? A lot of people have thought through, but none has the whole picture, only individual details.

Proposal%20by%20some%20Washington%20experts

Years ago experts (journalists, politicians, ....) have gathered up in Washington and dew this map, proposing the creation of unitary nation-states, with even population transportations, if necessary. Back then it would've been a good idea perhaps, but today it is inapplicable. Let's work out a possibility. Any idea  (better than this one)?
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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Feb-2008 at 23:51
Originally posted by Leonidas

it was an islamic state where the native Christians subjects were second class citizens and were killed if they resisted... hmm. Yes, many Armenians and Greeks were successful merchants but the regular peasant would not be so enthusiastic about your description.

I don't mean the Ottoman Empire. I'm certainly not about to say the ottoman empire ruled the balkans perfectly. The Ottoman Empire was just an example that came to mind. Probably I should have said the Achaemenids instead (but they aren't perfect either)

I mean a multi-ethnic empire which ignores ethnic/religious divides between people and treats them all as subjects. Even if those subjects aren't treated well, as long as they are treated equally. As far as I know, in the Ottoman Empire a serb subject, a greek subject, and a christian albanian were treated equally, even if this left much to be desired.
The micro nationalities need to be weakend.
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  Quote Theodore Felix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Feb-2008 at 00:23
That wont work, the last thing the Balkans needs is more unions. In fact, thats what brought the problems in the first place. If anything, one of the biggest objective of Balkan countries and people is how to best isolate themselves from another group.
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  Quote Yugoslav Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Feb-2008 at 01:42
Originally posted by Theodore Felix

That wont work, the last thing the Balkans needs is more unions. In fact, thats what brought the problems in the first place. If anything, one of the biggest objective of Balkan countries and people is how to best isolate themselves from another group.


I beg your pardon? Confused
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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Feb-2008 at 01:55
Originally posted by Theodore Felix

This is true for other parts of the world; the M/east and Africa come to mind


The problem with the Balkans was that you had various players backed by the big guys who sat and watched the ensuing massacres.
like Rwanda, west africa, Sudan, Guatemala, the kurds... they all have external powers that either do nothing or have interest tied to one side or the other. The only thing that makes the Balkans unique (and i dare say more intense),  it is European and gets the media coverage.

The Balkans just need three things, economic development, new history text books written by professionals that try to make truth 'relative' and balanced - maybe focus less on the victim hood and gloriousness of some distant past,  and please no more external meddling. The locals have themselves to blame for letting these powers in the door in the first place; celebrating USA support for their causes, looking to Russia for help. This all just makes them puppets for bigger more domineering powers that is far more threatening in the long term than any next door 'other'.

When the germans, USA, UK and the Russians mind their own business and stop supporting their 'tribe', things will at least calm down a bit, like elsewhere in Europe.
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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Feb-2008 at 02:24
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

Originally posted by Leonidas

it was an islamic state where the native Christians subjects were second class citizens and were killed if they resisted... hmm. Yes, many Armenians and Greeks were successful merchants but the regular peasant would not be so enthusiastic about your description.

I don't mean the Ottoman Empire. I'm certainly not about to say the ottoman empire ruled the balkans perfectly. The Ottoman Empire was just an example that came to mind. Probably I should have said the Achaemenids instead (but they aren't perfect either)

I mean a multi-ethnic empire which ignores ethnic/religious divides between people and treats them all as subjects. Even if those subjects aren't treated well, as long as they are treated equally. As far as I know, in the Ottoman Empire a serb subject, a greek subject, and a christian albanian were treated equally, even if this left much to be desired.
The micro nationalities need to be weakend.
sorry Omar you hit a raw nerve there with that particular suggestion. BTW the nation states that popped out of that carcass aren't the greatest success stories but are a step forward (inc turkey). however I understand where your coming from now.Smile it would be hard to to find an empire that has what your talking about mainly because there weren't created by mutual agreement or equality.

A better example would some form of multiculturalism based on what we experience here. Its expensive, the government publishing documents in all needed languages, SBS type TV, and freedom to call yourself whatever you want. Focus on citizenship and less focus on ethnicity; what it means to be a good citizen of Bulgaria, Turkey or Greece rather than what it means to be good Bulgarian, Turk or Greek.  Its subtle but important and needs a top down lead mind set change. Mix that in with some decent economic prospects, open and free borders and people simply wont care what side of the border they live on.

 Union is already coming via the EU, though i agree with Theodore we don't need more unions (nationally).

other structures that transcend the nation states that are particular to the region would help bring about a loose Balkan identity. lets face it we share a history, we like bitching about the ottomansWink and seem to be more like each other than we are with others.

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  Quote Theodore Felix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Feb-2008 at 02:25
The locals have themselves to blame for letting these powers in the door in the first place; celebrating USA support for their causes, looking to Russia for help.


We are small and weak, we will always have our Baba. Wether they come in the form of good ol' US of A, or mother Russia, or the European Powers, this much is unavoidable. If anything, certain interventions were quite right and necessary. If the US had not involved itself in Bosnia and Kosovo, the slaughter might have been 3-5x worse. If the US wasnt there to eventually check the Croats and Bosniaks, the war might have raged on. If Milosevic had not been toppled, more than 1 million Albs would have been expelled.

When the germans, USA, UK and the Russians mind their own business and stop supporting their 'tribe', things will at least calm down a bit, like elsewhere in Europe.


I agree, but it depends on the situation. These powers, for instance, allowed Serbia to grow exponentially, at the cost of other ethnicities, and 100 years later it bit them in the ass, a long with thousands of innocent civilians. They are just as much as part of this as Balkanites themselves.

Anyway, you want a true solution to the Balkans? Create a new threat, one that cant be compromised with; one that seeks to engulf everybody and nation. I say a giant alien invasion that is purely centered on the Balkans. Then watch "Human" nationalism pop up!!!

Edited by Theodore Felix - 09-Feb-2008 at 02:28
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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Feb-2008 at 11:55
The locals have themselves to blame for letting these powers in the door in the first place
You gotta be kidding, right? When the options are submission or being swept away by a professional army several time larger than the army the local territory can raise by recruiting all the adult men (and even if by luck or strategy the locals win, the next year or in the next few they'll have to face a similar army and they will eventually run out of resources), what exactly can the locals do?
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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Feb-2008 at 12:51
Originally posted by Chilbudios

The locals have themselves to blame for letting these powers in the door in the first place
You gotta be kidding, right? When the options are submission or being swept away by a professional army several time larger than the army the local territory can raise by recruiting all the adult men (and even if by luck or strategy the locals win, the next year or in the next few they'll have to face a similar army and they will eventually run out of resources), what exactly can the locals do?
i am talking  politically-diplomatically Chilbudios.
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Feb-2008 at 13:29

The Balkans like the Middle East seems to be one of those regions whose issues of identity cannot be solved without much pain and suffering by the peoples who live there.


What do you mean by that?  The only two significant ethnic problems in the middle east were created by the British.
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