Historical Linguistics
Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Scholarly Pursuits
Forum Name: Linguistics
Forum Discription: Discuss linguistics: the study of languages
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23267
Printed Date: 28-Apr-2024 at 15:23
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.56a - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Historical Linguistics
Posted By: King John
Subject: Historical Linguistics
Date Posted: 18-Jan-2008 at 22:35
| Personally I am a big fan of the "Linguistic Turn" in Historiography I am curious if there are any people here who are interested in Historical Linguistics? This is an area that I have very recently gotten into and would like some suggestions as to what would be best to read in this area. |
Replies:
Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 21-Jan-2008 at 11:20
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Hi King John! Can you specify what you mean with historical linguistics? Like Hesychius for example who compiled dictionaries? -------------  
SÃ¥ nu tar jag fram (k)niven va! |
Posted By: Chilbudios
Date Posted: 21-Jan-2008 at 11:25
| Flipper, AFAIK the historical linguistics is the branch which studies how and why the languages change. |
Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 21-Jan-2008 at 11:34
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Aaah, ok! Thank you! That is indeed an interresting field.
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SÃ¥ nu tar jag fram (k)niven va! |
Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 21-Jan-2008 at 14:33
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The classic writer with regard to Indo-European languages was always Antoine Meillet, but I read him in French. There are translations of various works available on Amazon though, and presumably in libraries.
For a look at an unusual aspect of language development you might like Gasparov's A History of European Versification. It concentrates on the development of verse forms, but they reflect of course the development of the underlying languages.
And there is always the Cambridge Encyclopedia of Language for general overview and a collection of facts as well as a reasonably objective summary of opinions and theories. ------------- |
Posted By: King John
Date Posted: 22-Jan-2008 at 01:50
That would be one aspect of Historical linguistics, that is comparing dictionaries and grammars from certain periods of time to other dictionaries and grammars from another period of time to see how the language has changed. Another aspect of historical linguistics is the study of languages and how they relate using morphological and phonological examples to show similarities and common ancestry. The way I envision using it for my research is to look at the changes in word usage in legal documents over a few hundred years in England and the North Sea countries (Denmark, Norway, etc.). |
Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 22-Jan-2008 at 10:15
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That would be interesting, but it's a pretty narrow field. For access to sources you might find http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/sbook-law.html#ENGLISH%20LAW - http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/sbook-law.html#ENGLISH%20LAW useful. ------------- |
Posted By: King John
Date Posted: 26-Jan-2008 at 17:40
| I would be using this in conjunction with my historical research. I plan to have historical linguistics as an outside field when I do my PhD. |
Posted By: Byzantine Emperor
Date Posted: 26-Jan-2008 at 18:39
Wow, this is a new development! It will go well with your interest in English law. Remember when we read Brian Stock's Listening for the Text? Although it smacks of postmodernism, some of his other works seem to deal with historical linguistics and methods of interpretation.
------------- http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=12713 - Late Byzantine Military http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=17337 - Ottoman perceptions of the Americas |
Posted By: Goban
Date Posted: 26-Jan-2008 at 18:43
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This is a very awesome topic King John.
With something as dynamic as language it would be interesting to learn the effects of various influences and why certain aspects are easily abandoned while others survive. Also, how language can reflect change in a culture and possible inferences we can make from identifying key elements (like a middle-range approach). ------------- The sharpest spoon in the drawer. |
Posted By: King John
Date Posted: 26-Jan-2008 at 18:53
Yeah, I've read some of his other stuff, but I did like Listening for the Text. I never would have thought that I would be interested in linguistics of any sort but the more languages I learn to read the more interested I get in it. |
Posted By: Byzantine Emperor
Date Posted: 26-Jan-2008 at 19:02
I thought the book was interesting too. The method of analysis has its place and can be fruitful when done correctly with as little of their specialized jargon as possible!
 I am very interested in the development of the Greek language from antiquity through Byzantium and the early modern period. One can see the evolution of the vernacular (demotic) in the documentary records from the Mount Athos monasteries. At the same time, late Byzantine historians are adopting a highly-refined Attic style like Thucydides, whom they emulated greatly. It is interesting to see the Greek language grapple with terminology to describe new technology and foreign borrowings.
------------- http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=12713 - Late Byzantine Military http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=17337 - Ottoman perceptions of the Americas |
Posted By: King John
Date Posted: 26-Jan-2008 at 19:31
| That's about how I feel about English prior to the Norman Conquest and after it. The development of English in legal documents of before the Conquest and after is one of my interests as is the development/usage of different words for punishment like eruare, exoculare, amputare, and/or castrare. |
Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 26-Jan-2008 at 20:06
I had been thinking how interesting this sounded, and then you came up with that list. I think you've put me off.  ------------- |
Posted By: King John
Date Posted: 26-Jan-2008 at 20:13
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why did the list put you off?
The list is of latin words that appear in documents concerning punishment from the reign of William I to Richard I. I am interested in looking at how these words shifted over time in legal documents. |
Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 27-Jan-2008 at 12:51
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I know what the words mean. That's the trouble. ------------- |
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 27-Jan-2008 at 17:11
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The Saxon/Scythian word for "Punish" was "Tucian", in the middle Persian language it was "Tawchian" (Modern Persian "Tawziana") which also means "Scourge", in the modern English and Scottish languages there is the word "Tawse" which means "Whip". ------------- 
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Posted By: King John
Date Posted: 27-Jan-2008 at 18:58
Why is that a problem? I know what those words mean as well. |
Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 27-Jan-2008 at 20:16
But you have a stronger stomach. I only recently had my gallbladder out  .
Against my better judgement though, how does 'eruare' differ from 'exoculare'? Or do I have to let my imagination roam over what else might be plucked out? ------------- |
Posted By: King John
Date Posted: 27-Jan-2008 at 20:33
| Eruare has more of a sense of to pluck out or rip out but doesn't necessarily have to be the removal of a body part whereas exoculare is more generically to blind. If that makes sense? Both, in my research, have been used in discussion of blinding. Eruare might also have been used to describe castration, but I highly doubt it. |
Posted By: Chilbudios
Date Posted: 27-Jan-2008 at 21:54
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Though I do not know how the words were exactly used in English legal documents, in Latin eruo means generically "to pull out, to extract" but also "to break, to destroy" while exoculo means "to pull the eyes out / to blind". Few classical examples for eruo: Pliny, Naturalis Historia, XXXIII, 4: eruitur aurum = the gold is extracted
Vergilius, Aeneid, II: ut Trojanas opes eruerint Danai = how the Greeks destroyed the Trojan power
|
Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 28-Jan-2008 at 10:34
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So in other words it's still left to my imagination what might be being plucked out here?
I'm trying not to think of the elephant. ------------- |
Posted By: Chilbudios
Date Posted: 28-Jan-2008 at 10:44
| I believe (I'll say it again, I am not familiar with English legal texts) the verb might have an object (complement) which should clarify the meaning: e.g. oculum eruere would be synonymous with exoculare. |
Posted By: King John
Date Posted: 28-Jan-2008 at 15:35
| In the English texts that I have seen "eruere" and "privare" are the most prevalent verbs used to express blinding often with a form of "oculus." What is interesting is that in the texts that I have come across "exoculare" is used strictly for a blinding that occurs during Judicial Combat. When discussing both blinding and castration the two verbs that are used are "eruere" and "abscidere" - to cut out. |
Posted By: Konstantinhaunstrup
Date Posted: 04-Dec-2010 at 08:30
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Hello, I don't know if this is the right place - but here goes. I've been trying to read the Qur'an(english ed.) and one of my turkish study-mates told me that you can't understand the Qur'an unless you learn Arabic. Especially the word "jihad" is often misinterpreted. And ever since i've been trying to understand the meaning of the word "Jihad". I know it doesn't literally mean "holy war" - but what does it mean? - Konstantin
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Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 01-Jan-2011 at 17:41
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Konstantin! You asked a very good question, and I would guess there exists a few Muslim brothers or sisters on this site? And, I would suppose even a few who actually understand Arabic?
So, I ditto your question, and merely wonder why none has answered? ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: Copperknickers
Date Posted: 16-Jan-2011 at 15:42
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The Quran is hard for two reasons. 1. Its in Arabic, which is unlike most other languages and therefore has a lot of strange meanings and words that do not translate directly from Arabic to other languages. The same can be said of any two languages that are very distant, eg English and Japanese. 2. Its a religious work therefore lots of words have been given new meanings. What jihad literally means is 'struggle' although it has lots of cultural and religious connotations. |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 20-Jan-2011 at 20:05
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Dear Copperknickers! And what a cold name you have chosen for your moniker!
So, since your gonads are in a cool place, just why do certain "Imans", etc., cry out for "a struggle?" Regards, (WoolenKnickers!)  ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: Copperknickers
Date Posted: 03-Feb-2011 at 13:51
What do you mean? Jihad can in interpreted lots of ways, but there are two major ways: inner jihad, ie the struggle with thoughts and personal spirituality outer jihad, the struggle with unbelievers and oppressors. This can mean the jihads going on currently in Egypt and Tunisia in the form of rebellion, or it can mean the one going on in Europe and America, the Holy War. |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 03-Feb-2011 at 15:49
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"Jihad can in interpreted lots of ways, but there are two major ways:
inner jihad, ie the struggle with thoughts and personal spirituality outer jihad, the struggle with unbelievers and oppressors. This can mean the jihads going on currently in Egypt and Tunisia in the form of rebellion, or it can mean the one going on in Europe and America, the Holy War." Well "Holy Pig!", I could have written "Holy Cow!", but it did not really seem appropriate to the conversation! Now, perhaps if we were discussing India, etc., it might be out of place?
So, the revolts in Tunisia and Egypt, are inter-Islamic "Jihads?", whilst the ones in Europe and the USA are "Jihads" of a different colour?  ( a play on the famous words heard in the movie version of "The Wizard of Oz"! Viz. "a horse of a different colour!")
Well I feel much better now that I can tell the difference between at least two differing versions of "The Jihad!" 
Thanks, But, just one more little thing! Now, by the virtue of my over 3,000 posts, I now hold the exaulted position of a "Caliph!" Does this mean that I am now free to form my own "Caliphate?" 
See; http://www.examiner.com/blogosphere-buzz-in-national/glen-beck-s-caliphate-definition-includes-the-muslim-brotherhood-pics ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |