Do the red-haired originally come from Ireland?
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Topic: Do the red-haired originally come from Ireland?
Posted By: Guests
Subject: Do the red-haired originally come from Ireland?
Date Posted: 14-Feb-2007 at 11:00
| To me, it seems that Ireland is the no.1 country with redheads. But where did the red-head start? Britain also has many, but do they originally come from Ireland? Can every red-haired person trace their gene back to Ireland? |
Replies:
Posted By: Paul
Date Posted: 14-Feb-2007 at 14:12
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Never really associated red hair with the Irish. I always thought of the Scots as the ginger weirdies.
Wiki gives these figures for frequency, which could suggest a Norwegian influence, though one would expect even higher figure in Norway if this is so.
15% Northern England
13% Scotland
10% Wales
10% Ireland
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Posted By: Emperor Barbarossa
Date Posted: 14-Feb-2007 at 15:43
True, I have always heard the stereotype applied to the Scots more than anybody. I mean, in most depictions in paintings, about one every eight Scot has red hair and a big red beard to go with it. ------------- 
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Posted By: Denis
Date Posted: 15-Feb-2007 at 17:02
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Gingers come from the Vikings, or so I've heard.
------------- "Death belongs to God alone. By what right do men touch that unknown thing" Victor Hugo |
Posted By: Boreasi
Date Posted: 15-Feb-2007 at 17:20
Perhaps Captain Redbeard was a late descendant from King Erik The Red?  ------------- Be good or be gone. |
Posted By: Dolphin
Date Posted: 15-Feb-2007 at 18:20
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The ginger race is dying out, due to the redhair gene being a recessive one and the influences of darker haired races making the future of the flame top quite bleak...Sad really, ginger girls are pretty sexy ------------- |
Posted By: Achilles
Date Posted: 15-Feb-2007 at 22:29
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I might be descended from Barbarosa, as I have a red beard myself.
------------- Der Erste hat den Tod, Der Zweite hat die Not, Der Dritte erst hat Brot. Fur immer frei und ungeteilt -always free and undivided- |
Posted By: The_Jackal_God
Date Posted: 16-Feb-2007 at 00:40
| i think aborigines also have an occurrance of red hair. |
Posted By: Knights
Date Posted: 16-Feb-2007 at 00:46
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Sounds very strange doesn't it jackal god...however I do believe that red hair is present in some Aboriginals, and a tribe called the Koori have natural blonde hair.
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Posted By: Constantine XI
Date Posted: 16-Feb-2007 at 01:05
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According the the Guinness Book of Records for 2007, Scotland does have the highest number of redheads per capita: 1 in 8.
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Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 17-Feb-2007 at 19:13
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Most natural Welsh redheads in my experience tend to be of the dark copper variety. Not sure if thats usefull. And yeah, stereotypes aside, its more of a N. England thing.
IIRC, yes, and blonsdism. Also some soutern African peoples, possible those Kalihari bushmen types (can't renember) have it in small amounts. Though it looks different, so probaly deroieved from a sort of seperate but paralel genetic linage or whatever. -------------  Arrrgh!!"
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Posted By: omshanti
Date Posted: 17-Feb-2007 at 20:07
| My Father who was Iranian had red hair, although the redness of his hair was darker and closer to the real colour of red rather than to the ginger-redness of the Scots. In fact I have seen quite a few Iranians with red hair. |
Posted By: cattus
Date Posted: 17-Feb-2007 at 20:29
| I have always had the same impression as the original poster about Ireland. |
Posted By: IrishNation1
Date Posted: 22-Feb-2007 at 16:41
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lol Well Im from Ireland and I dont know to many people with Red hair. I know a few but 1 in 8 of the people as someone above mentioned with the Scots. lol I dont think thats the case in my part of the Country anyway ------------- Early this morning I signed my death warrant. Michael Collins, to friend John O'Kane after signing Anglo-Irish Treaty in 1921 |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 22-Feb-2007 at 18:44
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I believe the red hair gene is present in most european populations and is not distinct to just the British Isles and Scandinavia. I know that in Ireland there is a high number of people with black hair. I believe that the black hair gene is more prominent there than the red.
My grandmother was from Mani in the Southernmost point in the Peloponnese peninsula in southern Greece, and she had pure red hair.
She was in no way mixed with the Celts or any of the Nordic group. That area of Greece remained completely isolated until the past 10 years and they were never conquered by anyone, not even the Turks.
So it seems that the Red-Hair gene is just a caucasoid feature.
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Posted By: kotumeyil
Date Posted: 23-Feb-2007 at 10:21
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The red-heads in Turkey are said to be mostly the descendant of Galats (Celts) who came to Anatolia around 278-277 BC. ------------- [IMG]http://www.maksimum.com/yemeicme/images/haber/raki.jpg"> |
Posted By: Lotus
Date Posted: 23-Feb-2007 at 10:33
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Well my wife and my 1 year old daughter are both red heads and both have quite fiery tempers. I always thought red heads were more Celtic than Nordic, are there many red heads in |
Posted By: Aelfgifu
Date Posted: 23-Feb-2007 at 14:42
I have read somewhere that a genemix of black hair (real black) and blonde (real blonde) gives red-haired kids. This does explain redheads in places you do not expect them. Blondes from the north (Kelts, Gemans, Balts etc.) mixing with dark Mediterranian types would cause red haired kids to appear. Tourism must help... 
I wonder if this could be the reason for Scottish redheads as well, quite a lot of mixing there: Kelts, Picts, Saxons...
The Red Irish idea is pretty fixed in peoples minds though. When I was in Italy people kept asking if I was Irish, just because of my red hair... It is not even my real colour... It is not even a natural colour at that... ------------- 
Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears. |
Posted By: Boreasi
Date Posted: 24-Feb-2007 at 02:00
 Peruvian Redhead  "A red-haired mummy recovered from the Nevado Ampato, Peru, in the mountains near the famous Machu Picchu mountaintop fortress. Dated at circa 1400 AD, this may even have been one of the red-haired Incas that the Spaniards reported seeing. Some of the mummies were found to have the stiff black hair of the Indians, while others, which have been kept in the same conditions, have red, often chestnut-colored hair, "silky and wavy, as found amongst Europeans, they have long skulls and remarkably tall bodies. Hair experts have shown by microscopic analysis, that the red hair has all the characteristics that ordinarily distinguish a Nordic hair type from that of Mongols or American Indians." (Heyerdahl, ibid., pages 351, 352)." Pizarro asked who the white skinned redheads were. The Inca Indians replied that they were the last descendants of the Viracochas. The Viracochas, they said, were a divine race of White men with beards. They were so like the Spanish that the Europeans were called Viracochas the moment they came to the Inca Empire. The Incas thought they were the Viracochas who had come sailing back across the Pacific. (Heyerdahl, ibid., page 253). According to the principal Inca legend, before the reign of the first Inca, the sun-god, Con-Ticci Viracocha, had taken leave of his kingdom in present day Peru and sailed off into the Pacific with all his subjects... http://www.burlingtonnews.net/redhairedmummiesunitedstates.html  Guanche  Ramses II  Ramses II  Yuya, Egyptian nobleman from 1400 BC  lLoulan, Tarim, NW China  Tarim, China http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarim_Mummies - en.wikipedia.org/ Don't give me advice - send me money... ------------- Be good or be gone. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 24-Feb-2007 at 11:07
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Mummies? I don't think is a good proof of red hair, because the body has suffered chemical transformations after dead. Native Americans in particular have hair varying from real shinny black to dark brown. In Egypt or China there is a real possibility blond or red haired "caucasians" existed one time or other. |
Posted By: Joinville
Date Posted: 24-Feb-2007 at 12:22
Don't trust the hair colour of Egyptian mummies on sight. There's been quite a bit of chemicals involved...  ------------- One must not insult the future. |
Posted By: Boreasi
Date Posted: 24-Feb-2007 at 13:24
Such cautious considerations have been made from all scientists that have been checking the mummies here involved. Of course we - who haven't even read the professional reports - would know better than to trust their conclusions; stating that the hair-color of these mummies are genuine and natural. Impressive! ------------- Be good or be gone. |
Posted By: Ellin
Date Posted: 16-Mar-2007 at 03:53
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Well I'm another one who thought the Irish had the reputation for red hair
and that the Scots were more dark-haired..!!
 Well said Brasidas.I agree. I also have dark red hair and I doubt very much that there
has been Celtic/Nordic admixture (and that's not saying I have anything
against them). I personally know a fair few Greeks who have red hair also, and they all happen to have roots from Anatolia/Asia Minor (don't know if that's saying something) and no, none of them are related.
Someone mentioned that Turks with red hair may be descendants of the Celts/Galatians. I thought that maybe the janissaries had something to do with it also.
That's what I have noticed with the Greeks.. that it's a darker/deeper red than the ginger/orange/bright copper of the Scots/Irish etc. And the other thing I have noticed is a lot of males, although they have dark hair, they have red beards.
------------- "Grk ppl r anarchic & difficlt 2 tame.4 this reasn we must strike deep in2 thr lang,relgn,cult& hist resrvs, so that we cn neutrlz thr ability 2 develp,distinguish themslvs/ 2 prevail"..up urs Kisngr |
Posted By: New User
Date Posted: 16-Mar-2007 at 11:26
| I always see it as a Scot thing not Irish. |
Posted By: Justinian
Date Posted: 12-Jul-2007 at 01:17
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I think I read in Tacitus that the germans were red heads and the gauls blondes. I have red and blonde in my beard so I would go with the idea that it is a nordic thing. I should add that I had two great aunts with fiery red hair that were of germanic descent. With that in mind Blonde hair mixing with black hair sounds like a very plausible theory. ------------- "War is a cowardly escape from the problems of peace."--Thomas Mann 
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Posted By: Aelfgifu
Date Posted: 12-Jul-2007 at 04:17
Yes, but Galenus wrote that the Germans were reddish, , Jerome argued that it was the Franks who were reddish and several other writers tied in red hair specifically with Celts or Slavs.
Pliny on the other hand, provides us with the interesting info that some Gauls used to dye their hair red, and that this habit had been adopted by some Germanic tribes as well... and Martial added that many Romans used this red dye soap as well.
 And in the Rigsthula verse, from the Edda, it is described that the slave is dark-haired, the common farmer is ruddy and the Jarl and King are blonde and fairskinned. Of course, grave finds do not confirm this strange 'looks and social rank' connection at all...
The only thing the sources can tell us on haircolour is really that it is not a feature that can be used to identify any specific group. It occurs almost in any group on a small scale, and as far as I know, true red is rare everywhere. -------------
Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears. |
Posted By: Justinian
Date Posted: 24-Jul-2007 at 23:32
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Ah, yes I forgot about the dying of hair. Do you know if the romans described the dacians, and later the goths as similar in appearance in regards to the germanics such as hair color etc.?
Facinating how a societies' social classes could be categorized based on hair color I've never heard of that before. ------------- "War is a cowardly escape from the problems of peace."--Thomas Mann
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Posted By: Constantine XI
Date Posted: 24-Jul-2007 at 23:37
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According to the Guinness Book of World Records (2007),the population with the most red heads if Scotland, the figure for that region being 1/8 of people.
As to whether these people originally come from Ireland, I have no idea. ------------- |
Posted By: Aelfgifu
Date Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 08:22
The problem with descriptions of peoples by Roman authors is, that most of these authors were armchair scholars who based their neat and ordered views on the world on hearsay of others... So they tend not to agree on much... and to add to that problem: reality was of course far less neat than their descriptions suggested.
There is a really good article by todays leading expert on migration age nationalities Walter Pohl: Telling the Difference: Signs of Ethnic Identity, in: Strategies of Distinction: The Construction of Ethnic Communities, 300-800, Walter Pohl and Helmut Reimitz eds. (Leiden, Boston, Cologne, 1998), pp. 17-70.
In this he takes all sorts of factors previously used as 'distinctive' for a people: hairstyle and colour, dress, language, weapons, habits, and shows how they probably where not nearly as defining as historians of the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries have made believe. Many factors can be proven to be due to factors like geography and class (in the east, horses were more readily available, and so more warriors rode them, but in the west they were expensive and so only for the rich; Bows function better in dry climates, and so are more common amongst Steppe peoples; Topknots were worn by the upper class only, and the custom was copied by the lower classes of other peoples...)
And in part, the Roman writers were plain wrong (such as the beards: Barbarians were always described as having beards, but bodies from the period recovered intact, such as peat-bodies, hardly ever have beards...)
It is really a fascinating article. I can recommend it very much. -------------
Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears. |
Posted By: elenos
Date Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 09:00
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The Scottish had the most red heads. All over Europe the Celts with dark hair were known as the "dubh" Celts, the "dark ones". To welcome the first "tall, dark stranger" still is common at hogmanay, the new year's festival in Scotland, so having red hair was not a class thing. Yes the Celtic warriors did dye their hair with female urine and had wild hairstyles similar to the punks of today. The men got turned on by red hair and women with natural bright red hair in particular were in demand. The Egyptian women used to and still dye their hair with henna that produces a red color. ------------- elenos |
Posted By: Aelfgifu
Date Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 09:05
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Of course not. Having red hair is a genetical thing, how can it be a class thing?
By the way, how can it possibly matter if it is womens urine? I'd say using horsepiss is far more practical, as there is so much more of it in a single catch... -------------
Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears. |
Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 09:18
Curious, in Wales this is on Boxing day. Edit: Or has my memory lapsed and it was New Years day afterall? All i renember with absolute certainty was that it was always the same cousin at my granma's house who got that treatment, i bet he did it on purpose :p ------------- Arrrgh!!"
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Posted By: elenos
Date Posted: 26-Jul-2007 at 00:39
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Hogmanay is the Scots word for the last day of the year and the celebration of the New Year (Gregorian calendar). The official date is 31 December. However this only the start of the celebration which lasts through the night until the morning of Ne'erday (1 January). Why women's urine? All sorts of better ways of collecting it than standing behind the ass of a horse I suppose. The warrior was the cream of society and women competed for their attention. The men (or their loved one) mixed the urine with clay to make the hair stand up in spikes. Many Roman writers commented on how that made them look fearsome in battle, for the hairs colors varied from white to yellow to red to purple. Strange the same style is common today.Both men and women wore bright colored clothing and jewellery, the most famous ornament was the gold torc around the neck. Above all they were cattle farmers that lived in a cowboy style rural society. Like the cowboys of today the cowboys then wore tall hats but made of birch bark. The women wore tall conical hats of beaver fur... Don't get me started! ------------- elenos |
Posted By: edgewaters
Date Posted: 26-Jul-2007 at 01:02
No. The origins of red hair are a total mystery and distribution is much more widespread and complex than one might imagine - historically it seems to have been present in Eastern Europe around the Danube, Iran, India, and even among Far Eastern Caucasoid groups like the Tocharians. Strangely enough it's even found among the Berbers of North Africa. Red hair is actually more common in northern England than in Ireland or Scotland - the highest incidence in the world is northern England. |
Posted By: pekau
Date Posted: 01-Aug-2007 at 21:19
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So, is the red hair traits come from North of Britain? Are there anywhere else?
Kind of off topic, but I heard that Rh- factor in blood were originated in the border between France and Germany... ------------- http://swagbucks.com/refer/Malachi"> 
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Posted By: Justinian
Date Posted: 10-Aug-2007 at 01:57
Thanks for the info. That does seem like a very informative article, I'll have to read it.  ------------- "War is a cowardly escape from the problems of peace."--Thomas Mann
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