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Einstein given too much credit.

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Topic: Einstein given too much credit.
Posted By: Pieinsky
Subject: Einstein given too much credit.
Date Posted: 17-Jul-2006 at 15:00
I think einstein did make a huge contribution to the human speices however i disagree with the way we have made him into a god.
There are plenty of other human beings that made huge contibutions to our speices. All i hear is einstien when expressing high intelligence. I have even found out recently that there is an american show called little einsteins yet its mainly about music.
Why do i not read or hear kant, hume and other great minds name's being expressed as frequently as our einstein. I dont even think einstein made the largest good contribution to the human speices or he was the smartest human of the 21st centuary. I think hes just being put so high up mainly becasue
he is a jew. Of course intelligence is not to be admired in our scientific and cultural state as it is impossible at the moment to determine how much came naturaly and how much was worked for. Intelligince should not be admired, the determination and how much one does to improve their intellect should be admired
 
Anyway a little off topic, what do think my einstein critisism.



Replies:
Posted By: Roadkill
Date Posted: 17-Jul-2006 at 16:28
 -How dare you, infidel! I will smite you and great pain will occur, specifically around that bone which goes like -ick- when you move that arm like -humph- and..... Errr, yes?

 -Now, do you realise how big an impact the theory of relativity made? It put all(Ok, not all..) the pieces together and unified many theories as well as correcting several mistakes. It's the single most revolutionary event in the 20th century(No, WWII was not 'revolutionary'LOL) and it led to future breakthroughs heralding the digital age. Just about any electrical equipment we use today exists due to Einstein's theories. His name should be used in excess, just like that of Newton and other scientists who have made such an impact on human civilization.


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"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
-- Albert Einstein (1879-1955)


Posted By: pikeshot1600
Date Posted: 17-Jul-2006 at 16:33
He rightfully gets more credit than the rest of us here.  Smile
 
 


Posted By: Imperator Invictus
Date Posted: 17-Jul-2006 at 19:14
Times named him person of the century, which I think is justified. Einstein was the man.

Even if Einstein did not develop special and general relativity, he would still have been the second greatest scientist at least in the 20th century.

he was the smartest human of the 21st centuary.

Obviously... Einstein lived in the 20th century, not the 21st.


Posted By: Roadkill
Date Posted: 17-Jul-2006 at 19:16
........BURNTongue!


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"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
-- Albert Einstein (1879-1955)


Posted By: Pieinsky
Date Posted: 17-Jul-2006 at 20:39
I think natural scientists are given too much credit compared to social sciences, artists of all types.
 
Social scientists allow us to understand human nature, which is key to happiness, I cant believe it, your well versed in the area of history yet you don't realise that societies were greatly defined by their understanding of the human psyce. I thought the purpose of life was to enjoy it as much as one can while taking  a substatial amount of consideration to others who deserve it. Technollogy alone is not the only factor that determines human happiness.
  Many nation share an equal technological level but some are more culturally backwards then others. What the hells the point of a country who is evile by definition(more evile then neighbours) building nuclear warheads when its people are psycotic, insesitive, question with red lights to a high degree. technollogy is not as important as it is conventially believed to be by humans. I rather have lived amongst the celts who were culturally superior to the vikings then the vikings who were technollogical superior but culturally inferior to the celts. However certain technologies allow certain cultural advancements.Smile
 
I am sick of great natural scientists and great mathamatitions being made into Gods while great humans who dedicated their lives to other area's are made seem less important then natural scientists. Smile


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Posted By: Imperator Invictus
Date Posted: 17-Jul-2006 at 21:20
Without the natural sciences, we wouldn't have this forum for you to express contempt for natural sciences. How's that? Wink

There are also a lot of great social scientists too, such as Keynes. They are also recognized.


Posted By: Pieinsky
Date Posted: 17-Jul-2006 at 22:37
I dont have a contempt for the natural sciences but i do have a contempt for the natural sciences being put over the social sciences in importance.Smile

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Posted By: Northman
Date Posted: 18-Jul-2006 at 02:28
The beneficial effects of natural science in a vast variety of areas, can hardly be overestimated - whereas social science, although admittedly inspirational for some, practically brought us nowhere.
 
Basically, we are the same babaric animals of war we were 3.000 years ago.
 


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Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 18-Jul-2006 at 04:51
If a social scientist or an economist ever achieves in his field what Einstein achieved in his, then I've no doubt he will be similarly admired. It hasn't happened yet.
 
In the arts, doesn't Picasso (rightly enough) get something of the same kind of status (in the 20th century)?
 
Personally what really irritates me is the status given to Plato.


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Posted By: Imperator Invictus
Date Posted: 18-Jul-2006 at 08:23
What is "important" means different things to different people. But in a historical perspective, Natural science has definately been more influential in driving change. One way to look at it is that social science tries to understand the current human society, but that human society was built on natural science (technology). Civilization is founded on technology.

Without natural science, you would still be a caveman hunting deer with sticks and stones.

Also, maybe you should let us know who you think is important if you think that Einstein was so unimportant.



Posted By: edgewaters
Date Posted: 18-Jul-2006 at 09:16
Originally posted by Roadkill

Just about any electrical equipment we use today exists due to Einstein's theories.


Eh? Relativity doesn't come into play very much with electronics. If there's a fellow who's primarily responsible for modern electrical equipment, it's Tesla.
    


Posted By: malizai_
Date Posted: 18-Jul-2006 at 09:46
Originally posted by Northman

The beneficial effects of natural science in a vast variety of areas, can hardly be overestimated - whereas social science, although admittedly inspirational for some, practically brought us nowhere.
 
Basically, we are the same babaric animals of war we were 3.000 years ago.
 
 
true, the natural scientists have equiped the barbarian with tools he could have never dreamed of on his own. The social scientist has taught him the most effective use of that tool.
 
Well done, Oppenheimer. 


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Posted By: Chilbudios
Date Posted: 18-Jul-2006 at 10:09
I'll widen Edgewaters' point, that is that relativity doesn't come much into play in much of the technology surrounding us. Much of the engineering is designed as relativity wouldn't work (because relativistic effects are insignificant at low speeds).
 
As for physics, there's also the quantum physics, a revolutionary 20th century physics. Being hardly edible probably its heroes are less celebrated by public opinion.


Posted By: Roadkill
Date Posted: 18-Jul-2006 at 10:30
 Edgewaters, I was referring more to computers, TV, and the like. I was generalizing a bit but I forgive myselfTongue. General relativity opened up for quantum mechanics as proposed by Niels Bohr.


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"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
-- Albert Einstein (1879-1955)


Posted By: Chilbudios
Date Posted: 18-Jul-2006 at 11:03
General relativity opened up for quantum mechanics as proposed by Niels Bohr.
Actually the quantum physics has a slightly different history. Max Planck is considered to be its father, and he's followed by Einstein (his studies on photoelectric effect), Bohr, Bose, Dirac, De Broglie, Heisenberg and others.
 
General relativity is the theory of relativity of gravity which basically correlates the mass-energy with the geometry of the spacetime. What's your point about it and quantum mechanics?


Posted By: edgewaters
Date Posted: 18-Jul-2006 at 11:06
Originally posted by Roadkill


 Edgewaters, I was referring more to computers, TV, and the like.

    

None of those require relativity. The basic component of the television, for instance - the cathode ray tube - was invented in 1897 by Karl Braun, and a working television was demonstrated as early as 1910 by Boris Rosing and Vladimir Zworykin, all predating relativity theory. Later inventions like the kinescope and iconoscope didn't depend on relativity, either. Nor does any stage of the evolution of the standard modern computer (although there is work being done on quantum computers, which obviously have some debt to relativity).

Relativity has resulted in very few practical applications. GPS needs it, as do atomic clocks and super-precise timekeeping. Nuclear technology relies on it. Outside of that - there isn't much. Certainly not computers and television.


Posted By: Imperator Invictus
Date Posted: 18-Jul-2006 at 12:22
Einstein's contributions are not only relatively. His contributions to the photoelectric effect are one of the most fundamental to quantum physics. He also did work on Brownian motion, which is fundamental to materials engineering.

As for relativity, the work has not had a lot of practical typical applications. That's true.


Posted By: Pieinsky
Date Posted: 18-Jul-2006 at 12:23
I'd like to know if you would like this world if suddenly it became devoid of sociologists, anthropologists, psycologists, actors, militery stratigists and political leaders, Empathy my friends is of great importance to a speices, our speices would not have existed up to this point if it wasnt for our great psycoanalytical ability as well as the excedingly brilliant psycoanalytical ability of small subset in our speices popules from its dawn to now.
Personally I am quite disgusted by some of you at the moment. It is transparent to me that some of you have been absorbed into the convention of the perception of what the most usefull intelligince is. If you had been born during the the renaisance period in Italy you probably would have thought that the natural sciences were of little importance in comparison to art.
 I find it difficult to believe how little you understand societies have be formated by its power elite understanding of human behaviour . Do you think Hitler would have been able to gather so much power which eventually led to the rise of the nazi party and the extermination of many jews if it were not for his understanding that he could unite his followers under him by creating for them a common enemy . He also realised that jews could be used as a meduim of blame for many germans, thereby directing many failures of germany elsewhere so to amplify the idea that the true germans were a superior race. An idea he knew that would make them love him becasue he gave them a sense of great power and purpose.
 Two feelings humans yearn for. He gave them identity, he made them feel special. 
Do you think technollogy is the main thing that is being used to instigate certain muslims who have fragile wills to fight for al queda. Do you think great war heroes purely fought each other with technollogy, was it that their understanding of their enemies disposition is of no importance. Is social hierachy irrelavent.  Why are you so blind to something that is situated all around you. Technollogy shapes society, yes. It is a sculpter and artist of it. Yes. It openes the doors to many possibilities, but there is a second sculpter, one who is equally important.
 The thing about technollogy is it's benifits to us are more colourfull and conspicios becasue we handle it all the time without needing to understand it in microscopc detail but that doesnt mean it has a greater impact on society then human social functions.  To see how the undersatnding of human behaviour benifits us is  more difficult, becasue you need to undersatnd a lot of human social functions. While you dont need to understand the make up of technologies in detail to see how it benifits us.
Do you think research into cloning would be allowed if we lived in very conservative society. And what do you think makes a society willing to put reseach into certain technologies.  What do you think makes a society conservative or liberal. Conservative, liberal, societies have existed since the beginnig of the human speices. I do believe technollogy is of great importance but that the understanding of human behaviour is as important if not more. I do hope I have enlightened you here as it grieves me to see how some people have so little understanding of what certain  great minds have done or our speices. Morale and imorale.


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Posted By: Decebal
Date Posted: 18-Jul-2006 at 12:56
Pieinski, I agree with you. Social sciences and arts do not get their fair share of recognition in the modern world. This is largely due to Enlightenment attitudes which placed science and pure reason on a pedestal. Our world has been shaped just as much by the arts and by social sciences as by the pure sciences. Who could deny the impact of a Karl Marx, of John Keynes, of Richard Wagner (whose influence extended far beyond music, btw), of Hegel, Bertrand Russell, Leonardo Da Vinci or Shakespeare?
 
And what about religion and mysticism. In the history of Western Civilization for example, people such as St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas are far more important (so far at least), than the vast majority of physicists. Jesus, Buddha, Muhammad and Confucius are titans that built our world, in a way that Einstein hasn't yet come close to. Perhaps in the far future, when his theories will actually result in technologies that will significantly impact our everyday lives, the point could be made in his favor. But not now.
 
 
Arts and social sciences end up shaping our very human nature, whether we are aware of it or not. Do people really believe that the values they hold, the symbols that they associate with the world, their very perception of the world are simply intrinsically part of any human? They are in fact the result of many centuries of social, ideological, religious and artistic development. The values that your mother instills in you when you are still in diapers are the descendants of thought-processes that social thinkers first developed a long time ago.
 
As for Einstein in particular, I think that he is somewhat overrated. Surely a great man, and of the greatest scientists. Was he the greatest scientist? Perhaps, but that is a fairly subjective call. It is difficult to compare him with someone like Newton for example, because many of us don't understand Newton's age, his climate of opinion. The choice of Einstein as the greatest man of the 20th century was in my opinion simply politically correct. It is much easier to point to him than to choose an ideologically charged alternative such as the much maligned Hitler, Lenin, Stalin, Mao, or even the more palatable Roosevelt, Gandhi or Churchill, who all had a greater impact on history.
 
The thing with science is that it is almost universally recognized as having positive results (even when the results are catastrophic: see the atom bomb). Social sciences and arts are subjective. One man's idol is another man's demon, and a consensus on a person's true impact is virtually impossible to achieve.


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What is history but a fable agreed upon?
Napoleon Bonaparte

Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth.- Mohandas Gandhi



Posted By: Seko
Date Posted: 18-Jul-2006 at 13:02
I couldn't have said it better Decebal. Social sciences are mostly subjective. Though they can use protocols of the hard sciences in their research. So it is not so flimsy and speculative as the hardists would have us believe.
 
Pieinsky expresses an oft overlooked point. The brains behind the gadgets and theories need to be taken into the same context of the inventions themselves. For human egotism would tarnish even the most gullible of souls. 


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Posted By: edgewaters
Date Posted: 18-Jul-2006 at 14:54
Originally posted by Decebal

The thing with science is that it is almost universally recognized as having positive results (even when the results are catastrophic: see the atom bomb). Social sciences and arts are subjective.


Oh, I can think of a few catastrophic results from the social sciences. Karl Marx. Leo Strauss. Alfred Rosenberg.


    


Posted By: Decebal
Date Posted: 18-Jul-2006 at 17:20
edgewaters, I'm not saying that social sciences do not produce catastrophic results. They undoubtedly do, in fact they do so much more often than one would desire. What I was saying is that science does as well, but the perception that people have of it is different.

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What is history but a fable agreed upon?
Napoleon Bonaparte

Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth.- Mohandas Gandhi



Posted By: Imperator Invictus
Date Posted: 18-Jul-2006 at 18:14
I'd like to know if you would like this world if suddenly it became devoid of sociologists, anthropologists, psycologists, actors, militery stratigists and political leaders


Leaders and artists are usually not "social scientists". When was the last time that a U.S. president had a PhD in political science? Did any religious prophet actually studied religion as an academic topic? Did Monet write any research papers in art history?

You're thinking of social artists, not social scientists. Military leaders are also "artists" not scientists.


Posted By: Roadkill
Date Posted: 18-Jul-2006 at 18:22
*tilt*

 -Social sciences are not as "important" because they are within us all. We all have emotions, they are with us all the time. If social scientists disappeared and all trace of their work as well it would not mean that we would lose our humanity. However, if you take away the theory of gravity, evolution, relativity, quantum mechanics, etc, you'd have a very different world.

 -We still feel the same things regardless of how much research there is on this situation or that emotion. Unlike these things knowledge is not  an inherent trait in humans......

(Came out a bit odd but you hopefully understand what I mean)


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"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
-- Albert Einstein (1879-1955)


Posted By: Imperator Invictus
Date Posted: 18-Jul-2006 at 18:35
I agree with some of your points.

Specifically, natural scientists and social scientists have  different roles. In the field of natural science, it is the scientists that are at the forefront of change (I would also categorize engineers as scientists). On the other hand, in the field of social science, it is the leaders, not the social scientists that are the influence. In this case, social scientists serve the role of explaining what has already happened, rather being at the forefront of change. The distinction is not black and white clear, but I think in general, that is a rule of thumb.

Another way to look at the issue, as mentioned in the above post, is that if we take away all "social science," we would still have a pretty well-functioning society. This is because topics like political science and economics are reasonably well-integrated into the human mind. Genghis Khan did not need to extensive academic research to understand how to lead his army.

In terms of actual importance, I don't think natural science is more important as an intellectual field (even though Pieinsky seems to imply that I do think so). But I do think that there's a difference between the roles of a natural scientist and a social scientists, and due to that difference, individual natural scientists have had a larger influence in history, because the influence of "social scientists" have been taken away by "social artist".


Posted By: edgewaters
Date Posted: 18-Jul-2006 at 22:46
Originally posted by Imperator Invictus

Einstein's contributions are not only relatively. His contributions to the photoelectric effect are one of the most fundamental to quantum physics. He also did work on Brownian motion, which is fundamental to materials engineering.As for relativity, the work has not had a lot of practical typical applications. That's true.


Well, it's true he did make other contributions beside relativity that are used in alot of modern technology ... but ... without relativity, Einstein is just one of a long line of scientists in various sciences whose contributions are not exceptionally notable (besides relativity). He's just one of many in his other fields of achievement. In terms of our modern technology, I would really have to say Tesla, Marconi and Bell are the fathers of the modern world; everything else is very collaborative or incremental in nature.

I think Einstein is deified too much as some sort of science-god, and alot of the suppositions about him are just plain false. That frazzly haired picture? Einstein was achieving absolutely nothing in his later years, all his great achievements were in his youth (when he was really clean-cut); in fact, in his latter years, he was not only terribly unproductive, but he was a stifling force of scientific conservativism, constantly attacking every new theory which arose.
    
    


Posted By: Imperator Invictus
Date Posted: 19-Jul-2006 at 00:45
Even without relativity, Einstein would still be one of the greatest scientists. He was one of the most important contributors to Quantum mechanics when the field was in its beginning. The early fundamental concepts like wave-particle duality and the photoelectric effect are all accredited to Einstein.

In terms of our modern technology, I would really have to say Tesla, Marconi and Bell are the fathers of the modern world


I think your argument relates to the issue of science vs. engineering. I don't see how citing those men weakens the case for Einstein since their accomplishments are in a different category. In terms of scientific theory, those three men do not compare to Einstein.


Posted By: edgewaters
Date Posted: 19-Jul-2006 at 02:43

 

Originally posted by Imperator Invictus


Even without relativity, Einstein would still be one of the greatest scientists. He was one of the most important contributors to Quantum mechanics when the field was in its beginning.

Outside of relativity, he was one of several dozen individuals ... and hardly the most profound of those. Bohr, Heisenberg, Planck ... Einstein is certainly no more important than any of these. One of the most important contributors, OK, if you extend the group you call "the most important" to include dozens of individuals. Even in terms of just photoelectric effect, Einstein did little but elaborate a small bit on the work of others; it was originally known as the "Hertz effect", after Hertz, who laid down the foundation for its understanding.

I think your argument relates to the issue of science vs. engineering. I don't see how citing those men weakens the case for Einstein since their accomplishments are in a different category.

You have to follow the thread from the beginning to understand the context. Nothing Einstein did has anything to do with the development of television and computers (see earlier posts in the thread). The theoretical science behind these developments was mostly developed from the late 1700s through to the 1800s. From there in, it was principally engineering.

In terms of scientific theory, those three men do not compare to Einstein.

   
I don't know. Tesla is a good competitor. He was *not* just an engineer. Not only did he do work on many properties of electricity, he contributed a great deal to electromagnetic theory, atomic physics, even ballistics and other elements of classical physics. I think his work is in more practical fields with immediate application, and less amenable as material for the armchair philosopher and psychedelic dreamer than relativism. Also Tesla managed to turn his one-time fame into disrepute as he degenerated into insanity in his later years, speaking of impossible death rays and geomagnetic weapons, whereas Einstein was very cautious (though unproductive and critical of all new theory) in his later years.

However, relativity was understood for quite some time - since Galileo. All Einstein did, in effect, was propose that it be applied to electromagnetic effects, in order to reconcile Maxwell's electromagnetic theories with Galilean relativism.

The early fundamental concepts like wave-particle duality and the photoelectric effect are all accredited to Einstein.

Photoelectric effect - once known as Hertz effect - was just elaborated on by Einstein (whose elaboration was only one of many later revisions, including the much later Compton effect). So he neither discovered the basis of it, nor did he resolve it fully. He made a contribution, like alot of other scientists did. Later ones made equally signifigant contributions to wave-particle duality, for instance de Broglie, who proposed that all matter and energy exhibited properties of both wave and particle, not just light.

Even in quantum physics alone, Einstein should not be the quanta deity: there are simply too many others, Planck, Heisenberg, Schroedinger, Bohr, de Broglie, whose contributions are at least equally important (if not, in some cases, more important). Einstein was simply amenable to pop culture status.

 


Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 19-Jul-2006 at 06:17
 
Originally posted by Pieinsky

I'd like to know if you would like this world if suddenly it became devoid of sociologists, anthropologists, psycologists, actors, militery stratigists and political leaders, Empathy my friends is of great importance to a speices, our speices would not have existed up to this point if it wasnt for our great psycoanalytical ability as well as the excedingly brilliant psycoanalytical ability of small subset in our speices popules from its dawn to now.
Personally I am quite disgusted by some of you at the moment. It is transparent to me that some of you have been absorbed into the convention of the perception of what the most usefull intelligince is. If you had been born during the the renaisance period in Italy you probably would have thought that the natural sciences were of little importance in comparison to art.
Not if you were Leonardo you wouldn't. Or even Dürer. The Renaissance in the visual arts marks significant steps forward in chemistry, anatomy and in optics, particularly the study of persepective.
 I find it difficult to believe how little you understand societies have be formated by its power elite understanding of human behaviour . Do you think Hitler would have been able to gather so much power which eventually led to the rise of the nazi party and the extermination of many jews if it were not for his understanding that he could unite his followers under him by creating for them a common enemy .
What's that got to do with anything? No, he probably couldn't. So what? All it does it show what skilled practitioners of the social sciences the Nazis were.
 
Instead of going on about the relative importance of various sciences, just name someone you think has done as much in the social sciences in the last 100-odd years as Einstein did in physics.
 
The two other modern figures who have achieved the same kind of eminence in their day are Karl Marx and Sigmund Freud. Neither of them have had anything like as dominant or lasting an effect in their fields as Einstein (though at one time they seemed to come close).
 


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Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 19-Jul-2006 at 06:31
 
Originally posted by edgewaters

 However, relativity was understood for quite some time - since Galileo.

 
True. Einstein didn't invent the concept of relativity (which actually had been around since well before Galileo), what he did was elaborate a theory (or two) 'of relativity' which produced predictions that ran counter to earlier ones and proved more accurate.
 
'Of relativity' is really a misnomer for Einstein's theories. The foundation of the Special Theory is actually the constancy of the speed of light (i.e. the surprising fact that it is NOT relative to the observer) so it would perhaps better be called the Special Theory of NON-Relativity. And the foundation of the General Theory is the equivalence of gravity and acceleration, leading to a geometric interpretation of gravity, so arguably that would better be called the General Theory of Gravity.
 
All Einstein did, in effect, was propose that it be applied to electromagnetic effects, in order to reconcile Maxwell's electromagnetic theories with Galilean relativism.
 
He did a whole lot more than that. The whole concept of the gravity-related curvature of the space-time continuum is owed to Einstein. Modern cosmology would be nowhere without Einstein.
 
And the problem was not reconciling Maxwell with Galileo, it was with reconciling Michelson-Morley - the constant speed of light - with Galileo. Galileo's and Newton's beliefs about relativity assumed all motion was relative. What Einstein had to do was demonstrate why that was - from observation - not true.
 
 


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Posted By: edgewaters
Date Posted: 19-Jul-2006 at 07:33
Originally posted by gcle2003

He did a whole lot more than that. The whole concept of the gravity-related curvature of the space-time continuum is owed to Einstein.


True, but without Minkowski there would be no space-time to curve!
    
    


Posted By: Chilbudios
Date Posted: 19-Jul-2006 at 09:04
And without Christoffel, Ricci or Riemann there wouldn't be any maths to create such theories Smile


Posted By: Imperator Invictus
Date Posted: 19-Jul-2006 at 09:57
I don't see how you can dismiss Einstein's work as simply "elaborations" because I can also claim that Tesla's work was simply an elaboration of earlier works, like those of Maxwell's. And just as so, it would be like saying Shakspeare's work was simply an elaboration of a language.

I think you also understate the importance of relativity, esepcially general relativity. It is one of the most important cornerstones of modern astrophysics.

You have to follow the thread from the beginning to understand the context. Nothing Einstein did has anything to do with the development of television and computers (see earlier posts in the thread). The theoretical science behind these developments was mostly developed from the late 1700s through to the 1800s. From there in, it was principally engineering.

Maybe it's not practical right now, but in another century, when we do a lot of space-related stuff, that's when Einstein's theory will come into place. Smile


Posted By: edgewaters
Date Posted: 19-Jul-2006 at 13:33
Originally posted by Imperator Invictus

I don't see how you can dismiss Einstein's work as simply "elaborations" because I can also claim that Tesla's work was simply an elaboration of earlier works, like those of Maxwell's.


I'm not dismissing it, merely putting Einstein among rather than undeservedly far above his colleagues. Have I said that he is less than them? Tesla I only named as a viable competitor, particularly because his science had alot of influence on our everyday world and technology around us.

I think you also understate the importance of relativity, esepcially general relativity. It is one of the most important cornerstones of modern astrophysics.


Yes, it's very important in astrophysics, but what about other discoveries, like gravitational attraction, space-time, etc? They are at least as fundamental and revolutionary. The problem with Einstein-worship is that it vastly diminishes other contributions.

You have to follow the thread from the beginning to understand the context. Nothing Einstein did has anything to do with the development of television and computers (see earlier posts in the thread). The theoretical science behind these developments was mostly developed from the late 1700s through to the 1800s. From there in, it was principally engineering.



Maybe it's not practical right now, but in another century, when we do a lot of space-related stuff, that's when Einstein's theory will come into place.


The context originally was an answer to a claim that Einstein was responsible for "electrical equipment" and "televisions and computers" which he is not in any way, at the present time.

As far as its future practical applications - maybe. Maybe not. Who knows? By then, there will undoubtedly be even more developments (there already have been, in fact) - will we have to diminish them too, to maintain the cult of Einstein, science-deity?


Posted By: lennel
Date Posted: 19-Jul-2006 at 15:52
Originally posted by edgewaters

Originally posted by Roadkill

Just about any electrical equipment we use today exists due to Einstein's theories.


Eh? Relativity doesn't come into play very much with electronics. If there's a fellow who's primarily responsible for modern electrical equipment, it's Tesla.
    
 
I'd like to throw in the comment as to inevitability and einstein.  We credit him, but generally speaking scientists have many less-famous contemporaries who are working on the same subject.  Essentially, if one guy didn't invent it then 5 yrs later another would have.  We would still have electrical lighting or recorded music, without edison.  We'd have airflight without the wright bros. etc.
 


Posted By: Roadkill
Date Posted: 19-Jul-2006 at 21:24
 -What I meant with the statement quoted above is that Niels Bohr who was instrumental in the field of quantum mechanics and who's theory(ies) led to the ability to build small transistors(Amongst other things, transistors stick out in my memory) who then enabled all digital items to be smaller and more complex, allowing the equipment I am typing on now to become reality. His theory spawned from discussions on relativity with Einstein and his theory and that's what I mean. If the theory of relativity had not been around Bohr would not have had the "information" to propose his theory. That's what I meant.

 -Quantum theory became a hot topic of discussion amongst Bohr and Einstein with Bohr saying "it works" and Einstein saying "it's incomplete". Einstein did not dismiss the theory, he merely saw it as unfinished and used the remainder of his years fiddling around the the theory of everything, a theory that would unify quantum and relativity theory(That's one thing he didn't complete though).

 -And lennel, you're correct. However, we must give them credit nonetheless, eh? Fame and recognition is quite a driving force...


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"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
-- Albert Einstein (1879-1955)


Posted By: Gundamor
Date Posted: 19-Jul-2006 at 22:35
Originally posted by lennel


I'd like to throw in the comment as to inevitability and einstein.  We credit him, but generally speaking scientists have many less-famous contemporaries who are working on the same subject.  Essentially, if one guy didn't invent it then 5 yrs later another would have.  We would still have electrical lighting or recorded music, without edison.  We'd have airflight without the wright bros. etc.

 

    
I've read this too and believe it but it doesnt deny Einstein came up with these things when he did.

This months discover is pretty interesting Mordehai Milgrom has some new theories that go against Einsteins.

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"An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind"


Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 20-Jul-2006 at 10:04
 
Originally posted by edgewaters


True, but without Minkowski there would be no space-time to curve!      
Originally posted by Chilbudios

And without Christoffel, Ricci or Riemann there wouldn't be any maths to create such theories Smile
 
Both of course correct.
 
That's why I was a little careful in what I wrote.


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Posted By: Odin
Date Posted: 22-Jul-2006 at 21:00
Originally posted by Pieinsky

I think natural scientists are given too much credit compared to social sciences, artists of all types.
 
Social scientists allow us to understand human nature, which is key to happiness, I cant believe it, your well versed in the area of history yet you don't realise that societies were greatly defined by their understanding of the human psyce. I thought the purpose of life was to enjoy it as much as one can while taking  a substatial amount of consideration to others who deserve it. Technollogy alone is not the only factor that determines human happiness.
  Many nation share an equal technological level but some are more culturally backwards then others. What the hells the point of a country who is evile by definition(more evile then neighbours) building nuclear warheads when its people are psycotic, insesitive, question with red lights to a high degree. technollogy is not as important as it is conventially believed to be by humans. I rather have lived amongst the celts who were culturally superior to the vikings then the vikings who were technollogical superior but culturally inferior to the celts. However certain technologies allow certain cultural advancements.Smile
 
I am sick of great natural scientists and great mathamatitions being made into Gods while great humans who dedicated their lives to other area's are made seem less important then natural scientists. Smile
 
As far as I'm concerned, the social sciences are nothing more then applied biology.


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"Of the twenty-two civilizations that have appeared in history, nineteen of them collapsed when they reached the moral state the United States is in now."

-Arnold J. Toynbee


Posted By: Cezar
Date Posted: 23-Jul-2006 at 05:36
Originally posted by Roadkill

 
 -Quantum theory became a hot topic of discussion amongst Bohr and Einstein with Bohr saying "it works" and Einstein saying "it's incomplete". Einstein did not dismiss the theory, he merely saw it as unfinished and used the remainder of his years fiddling around the the theory of everything, a theory that would unify quantum and relativity theory(That's one thing he didn't complete though).
 
 
And Godel demonstrated to Albert that Completness and Incompletness are both required in order to be consistent.
 
Any theory is incomplete just because (roughly speaking) it cannot explain itself.
 
Albert is not overrated. The bad thing is that he is viewed as some sort of Superman. Something like Albert Einstein=Captain Science.


Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 11-Oct-2006 at 06:59
Newton's contribution were far better.

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PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn


Posted By: Georgiyman25
Date Posted: 15-Oct-2012 at 01:07
Wait a minute now sir.. I think you are forgetting about this one great man. Mr. Tesla?


Posted By: Georgiyman25
Date Posted: 15-Oct-2012 at 01:26
I agree with you, I personally think technology will soon destroy us and we will go back to how we are supposed to live.  I actually think technology hinders us and makes us lazy and stupid in a lot of ways. Because it does all the thinking/organizing and so forth for us. I used to be an Athiest/Materialist..But after getting laid off and having all this free time to do some deep searching, I have realized that there is much more to life than what meets the eye. By the way, the worst of worst are celebrities.. They are being treated as gods and it is pathetic. But they are the number one tools for commercials to selling and advertising garbage. If Bieber wears these funky looking glasses, then so will 50 other million..So sad.. Television is one evil invention. I kind of wander if the 3D I-max theaters will be even better tools to use for subliminal messaging and mind control than the 2D screens? I think Tesla deserves far more credit then Einstein or equal amount. Tesla was by far more intelligent then Einstein. So was Walter Russell. Who NO one has ever heard of. Yet he was able to produce cosmic consciousness kind of like Shakespeare and few others.


Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 15-Oct-2012 at 08:11
No man,They waste time with useful tech cause of wrong economic model!Solution:Snail like Houses with super insulation abilities and recycling water&air produced with nanotechnology!Implanted solar plant house above and food all in one as some Russian scientists suggest(broth with all ingredients!).It looks as lunatic dream today but..Hope will be soon.I agree about fetish models&values,we have created during those several thousands  of years.SmileRegards...


Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 15-Oct-2012 at 12:13
Does no one remember Gregor Timoshenkov?
 
 
 


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"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.


Posted By: Azadi
Date Posted: 28-Nov-2012 at 12:27
And here I thought he got too little recognition LOL

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