Originally posted by Ave1 Can anyone ascertain who are these Nikudari speaking Afghans? Where in Afghanistan are they concentrated in?   I would imagine this would be a fascinating subject to expound upon given the language's historic significance and rarity.

 

Well dear Ave1  first of all welcome to our board and wish you have a nice stay, afterward  I would say a very nice topic to start with, I have also heard about Nikudari infact I have seen some people who claim that we they are speaking is Nikudari, but they had nothing to prove it.

Infact there are many mongols left in Afghanistan specially in west of Afghanistan most of them could be found in the border province of Herat.

There is a cast (which I know of) named Temori (Temorian) who descent from Temor-e-Lang (Lane), infact I have family ties with them I mean not myself (as I am Baloch-Pashtun) but from an angle.

So it is true that there are many pure mongols in Afghanistan, and maybe they do speak Nikudari, but the family whom I am linked with speaks Dari not Nikudari so I guess it may be is limited to some special people and area but overall you could find most of them in west of Afghanistan.

 

Wish I have provided you some how something but any way I will look for it a bet more and as I get something I will share it.

 

I am confused to the issue of Hazaras. it is said by some that:

 

1).Some of the original hazaras were displaced by the new comers into the hazarajat regions to places like Baluchistan and kaghan areas in North-Pakistan.

 

2).Also that their were earlier settled turanian communities in the region of central hazarajat before the arrival of the later day Mongolians.

 

3).Some of who are referred to as hazaras don't display the typical turanian features and are more similar in appearance to the tadjiks and pushtuns.

 

4).Political and religious sepration into aimaqs and hazaras.

 

Any personal insight would be most welcome.

Well dear to be honest I didn't get what you are confused about I mean all points you mentioned are some how some where true so what is then that you wanted to ask? If you don't mind could you simplify you question.

 

Well dear Malizai I guess you are some how right most of the Hazaras have mixed up with other ethnics and now its hard enough to find out who is a Hazara and who is not, but about whom I was talking they are of Jaghuri tribe who are also said to be from Turks but most say that they are of Mongols.

 

 

Most of the Hazaras do not live in Western Afghanistan, but in Central Afghanistan in the provinces of Bamian, Daikondi, Eastern and Northern Ghor, Western Wardak province, and in portions of Oruzgan.  There is also a considerable population in Ghazni, Mazar e Sharif, and Kabul.

 

Majority of Hazaras in Afghanistan currently speak Dari (Persian) with some being bilingual in Pashto as well.   In the rural areas they speak with a distinct Mongolian accent. 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musa_Khan - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musa_Khan

 

There is also a completely seperate people in NWFP called "Hazara" which resemble more Pashtuns than anything else.

 

Do the Moghuli people have any relation with "Moghulistan"  ?

 

The moghuls speak urdu along with whatever regional language available. How do I klnow this because I have a firend who is Moghul. The idiot dosent know much of his history, but on the mention of hazaras exclaimed; "who are they?".

 

Urdu is a derivation from persian and turkish and incorporates the regional words of the sub-continent. Also the Pakistanis see themselves as the those who continued with the legacy of the Muslim dynastic rule in India. Therefore the continuation of the Urdu language in Pakistan.

Urdu is not a derivative of Persian and Turkish, but Indo-Aryan (like Hindustani).  Urdu uses Perso-Arabic script instead of Devanagari, and has Turkish loan words.

Here is the national anthem of pakistan, you can see for urself. Any farsi speaker will pick up a dozen words, a turk may also recognize a few.

Sorry, forgot to mention abundance of arabic words. Which are also found in turkish and farsi use.

 

Urdu is related to Orda or Horde linguistically. It's a Turkic word for Palace. During Qarahanids period, the capital Kashgher (Qeshqer) was also called Ordukent.

 

The main structure of Urdu based on local language of sub-continent, with large number of Turkic, Persian and Arabic loan words.  Persian were predominant in literature during Dehli Sultanate (Before Moghuls came) as large number of Persian scholars fled to Dehli after Mongol invasion to Iran.

 

 

 

 

 

(Afghanaan-

BTW i accept the misuse of the term "derivative" which gives an incorrect relationship. )

 

Look up the names of two countrie's missiles. ghori and ghaznavi, Hataf VII Babur, Shaheen, missile  for Pakistan, prithvi, agni, trishul, nag for India.

 

turkish words like: Millet, Seyahet, Top, Tamancha, Barood, Chaku, Bahadur, Begum, Bulak, Chadar, Chhatri, Kitab, Chikin, Chamcha, Bavarchi, Khazanchi, Coolie, Kanat, janissar, Kiyma, Kulcha, Korma, Kotwal, Daroga, Koka, Kenchi, Naukar, Kervan, Serai, Sanat, Askari, Ustanin, Taraf, etc.

 

Amir Khusarao was a turk AFAIK and used persian and arabic with the old hindi(generalization) and is held partially responsible for the popular dissemination of the new form of development.

 

 

 

You are much right about it as I have also noticed such news where Afghan officials asked Pakistan to change the names (which derive from Afghan history) of their missiles specially the Abdali Missile, as Abdali (by which they mean Ahmad Shah Abdali) is the true history and founder of Afghanistan. I have even heard some Officials saying that Pakistan want to terrify India with Abdali's name who had engaged in distruction of India and Marathas.

 

@ Malizai_

I would like to tell you that the only pure Urdu word in the National Anthem of Pakistan is the word "Ka" which does not exist in other languages all of the rest Anthem is made of Persian and Arabic words.

 

Good Post! 

 

Actually I am aware of Mantu and Buzkashi being Turkish/Mongolian.  But Mantu in Afghanistan is something special.  I have had Mantu from Uzbekistan and its very plain (lots of black pepper and onions) and without any flavor, (but this may have been due to the cook).

 

Another dish that has Uzbek/Turkish history is the famous Afghani "Qaboli Palou" (aka Kabuli Palao) which in fact is a variation of famous Uzbeki Polov.  Afghani variations of all Central Asian dishes are very good by the way.

 

 

 

It seems the more south Central Asian food goes, the more spicier it gets.  Afghanistan I would say has food ranging from mild to semi-spicy, while in Northern Pakistan and India the food becomes very spicey and seldomly mild.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The point i was making was that the Muslims had identified with the Muslim dynasties. The People of Pakistan feel that they inherited the legacy of those days, some by descent, by language or by religion. Other than the rulership in Sindh which had been Arab at one point, the remaining ruling dynasties had been Afghan or Turkish. Persian was the language used in the official courts. In fact, Persian was taught as part of the Pakistani school syllabus not too long ago, i think.

 

Gharanai

The Rohillas were for example local to the land and fought in the war of Panipat alongside Abdali. similarly many people of Pakistan are of Turkish, Iranian and Afghan decsent and have every right to claim that history as their own.

 

I am new to forum.  Found it by researching most ancient roots of Artemis which I believe has many other names, as most pre-history gods and goddessed did/do.

 

I am interested in this region from a pre-historic point of view, particularly during pre 4000 BC and in the city of Kanes as possibly a center of religious division and first conceptions of holy warfare.

 

Respect work of Riane Eisler, Gimbutas and excavators at Catal Huyuk and Harran/Harapos.

 

Am eager to correspond.  Just wrote master's dissertaion, encorporating some of this info, and am doing PhD now, which will use less.  But my passion is a book that will use more, much more.

 

best

likepo

 

 

 

Very true, Bozkashi is only played by the Turkic people, like Turkmens, Uzbeks and Hazara, with the exception of a few Tajiks and Pashtuns. As you said, it originated in Mongolia, but there is another myth or story i should say, behind the origin of this game/sport in North Afghanistan, among the Pashtuns.

 

It is said that when the Turkic people would attack Afghan villages from the North of the Amu River, they would loot, destroy houses, and kidnap the women, and while riding a horse, they would pick the kids from ther neck/heads and take them away. When the locals became stronger, the Turkic intruders could no longer do that, thus they started doing that with the goats, as we see it today in the form of sport. This is what has been told to us by our elders in North Afghanistan.

 

Regarding the Hazara people, there are a few thousand of them in Central Afghanistan, in the South of Wardag province, they are Pashtunzied Hazaras. They look Mongolian but speak as pure Pashto as a original Pashtun would, my dad told me about this, and i found it quiet interesting.

 

The Turanian armies kept increasing our numbers in Hazarstan. Hazaras are a mixture of Mongol/Moghul and Turks. We speak 'Hazaragi' which is a mixture of mainly Dari words with a lot of Mongol and Turkish words. For example:

Abai or aba = mother <---same in Turkic

Bekai = Someone respected eg auntie <----same in Mongol

Nokar = Someone who serves the Khaan <---same in Mongol

Sawghot = A gift to the Khaan<---same in Mongol

Baatur, Baatar baater, bahodir or bahadur = Someone like a 'hero'<---same in Mongol and Turkic

Tawlai = Rabbit<---same in Mongol

Tolgha = Top of your head<---same in Mongol

Habergha or qabirgha = Ribs<---same in Turkic and Mongol

Bola = cousin<---same in Turkic Uzbeki dailect

Abagha = Uncle<---same in Turkic

Ezna = your wives bro<---same in Mongolian

Oqra = eye<---same in Mongolain etc and etc...

 

About my history:

Hazaras have been living in the area that is nowadays called Afghanistan for thousands of year, even before the Great Mongol Empire. There is a misunderstanding among the people about the existence of Hazaras and the name 'Hazara'. Hazaras today were not called Hazaras in the past. Our Turkic ancestors, the Kushans who built the Bamiyan Buddha's are proves of our existence almost 2000 years ago.

 

Before the Mongol Empire Hazara ancestors were mainly Uyghuric Turks. When the Mongol Empire was divided into states, that is when the name 'Hazara' was given to us, and that was when Hazara population became larger and larger as more Mongols settled in Hazarstan/Hazarajat.

 

When the Mongol Empire collapsed, the defeated soldiers from Iran, Iraq and other places escaped to Hazarstan region.

 

Hazaras are mainly Sunni, sheit and Ismaili Moslems. Hazara tribe today is made up of roughly 80% Mongol and 20% Turkic. Here are some of the well known Hazara sub-clans:

 

Jaghuri

Besud

Turkomons (of Hazarstan/Hazarajat)

Temuri (they are known as 'Hazaras' in Iran but in Afghanistan they are called 'Temuri'. They live on Iran-Afghan border.)

Aimaq

Naiman

Dai Zangi

Dai Kondi etc and etc...

 

Besud and Naiman Hazaras are the oldest Mongol tribes, whereas the Jaghuri Hazaras are a mixture of Mongol and Turkic tribes. The name Jaghuri comes from 'chau quri', which was a position given to an ancestor of Chingis Khaan after his death who had the responsibility to control 100 Mongol soldiers, during Oltan Khaan.

 

There are still Naimans in Mongolia and Qazaqistan. Not all Besud Mongols moved to Hazarstan. Many still live in Mongolia today.

 

I belong to the Naiman Hazaras. Our small village on the North West of the Hindu Kush mountain ranges is called Naiman. It is located in the Northern Afghanistan. And a few km's south of us are the Tatars who are Turks. My ancestors spoke Mongolian untill the end of 1700's. But todays we all speak 'Hazaragi'. I see myself as who I am, as a pure Mongol who is a proud Afghan citizen, therefore I see myslef as a Hazara.

 

Here are some more Hazara pictures:

 

 

Hazaras in Grifith Australia - Grifith Afghan Community

Young boys

Farkhunda - a young and talented Hazara artist

Hazara's in Baluchestan Pakistan - Quetta

I've heard a couple Hazara brothers say that they are descendants of Kushans.  However,  the Kushans, and the Ephtalites, and other people who lived in Bamian  up until the time Chenghiz Khan entered the valley of Bamian were all killed by Genghis Khans armies.  He killed every living being Bamian, it's written in historical texts.  He made mounds of heads of every living man, women, child, cat and dog.  Nothing was spared. 

 

We know for a fact that the Mongols created a garrison town in Bamian and those people did not just dissapear, they exist today.  This is not to say that some Hazara brothers are not mixed today.  Many Hazaras have intermarried with Tajiks, Pashtuns, and Uzbeks and those that live in the major cities don't even speak Hazaragi Farsi anymore.

 

Genetics also proved it.  The Hazaras that moved to Pakistan after fleeing from Emir Abdur Rahman Khan were studied by genetecists.  Their oral traditions claim they are Mongolian (something some Hazaras today deny).   (BTW, this is not to be mistaken for the other Hazara that are indigenous to Pakistan)

 

Here is  an excerpt on the Hazara:

"

The population that is genetically most distinct, the Hazaras, claims descent from Genghis Khan’s army; their name is derived from the Persian word “hazar,” meaning “thousand,” because troops were left behind in detachments of a thousand. Toward the end of the 19th century, some Hazaras moved from Afghanistan to the Khurram Valley in Pakistan, the source of the samples investigated here. Thus, their oral history identifies an origin in Mongolia and population bottlenecks ~800 and ~100 years ago. Of the two predominant Y haplogroups present in this population, haplogroup 1 is widespread in Pakistan, much of Asia, Europe, and the Americas, and so provides little information about the place of origin. Haplogroup 10, in contrast, is rare in most Pakistani populations (1.4%, when the Hazaras are excluded) but is common in East Asia, including Mongolia, where it makes up over half of the population.  Admixture estimates ( http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=447589&rendertype=table&id=TB3 - table 3 ) are consistent with a substantial contribution from Mongolia. http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=447589#RF2 - BATWING analysis of the Hazara-specific haplotype clusters in haplogroups 1 and 10 suggested TMRCAs of 400 (120–1,200) and 100 (6–600) years ( http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=447589&rendertype=table&id=TB8 - table 8 ), respectively. Thus, the genetic evidence is consistent with the oral tradition and, in view of its independent nature, provides strong support for it ( http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=447589&rendertype=figure&id=FG7 - fig. 7 )."

 

 

Full article can be read here: 

 

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=447589 - http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=447589

 

It is wrong to say Kushans were not Turks. They were Turkic people, mostly Ughur Turks. If you read Chinese sources they are very accurate. Kushan Empire was organised and lead by Turkic people. They were very religious Buddhists. They did not care what race you are from, they would treat all the same. They had people from various races in their government and army. This provided an opportunity for some writers specially the Persian ones write that the Kushans were Indo-Europeans.

 

I'm not saying that what you wrote is wrong, some of them might have had European features, or some might've been completely European looking just like there were dark looking Kushan soldiers. But they were all under the control of the Kushans who were Turks.

 

If you still require physical evidence of Turkic existence in Afghanistan, read the archeological discoveries of Central Afghanistan (Hazarstan regions). They found bones that resemble to Mongoloid features, eg. high cheek bones and etc. This was centuries before Kushans.

 

I came across this topic for two reasons, one my older brother happened to be raised by a Hazara family in Quetta(Pakistan) while my parents were away and 2, I went to school in Hazara district Pakistan.. lol!! 

 

an interesting combination nonetheless...  anyhow, Whats the general concensus here on the history/origins of the Hazara in the first place?  I've heard that many believe them to be decendants of chengiz khan's troops who came in their 'thousands' (persian =  Hazar) hence Hazara's... but I remember having a conversation with my bro's foster grandfather in quetta which has the largest urban concentration of Hazara's in the world, and he told me that this story is not true and that the Hazara people have always inhabited the central Afghan plains of Bamiyan for the longest of times.  He never heard of place of origin theory from his family as many people in the region often project.  He recounted oral traditions of how the neighbooring tribes have always been against the Hazara people and the cruelty they have suffered hence the arrival of his clan to the safety of Quetta some 4 generations ago.  One story involved the Pashtuns of Wardak(A province adjacent to Bamiyan) who on conquering vast swathes of Hazara territory captured all the women and girls and killed the men.  I remember him saying that, history has played a cruel joke on the Wardak tribe of Pashtuns, as now they have strong Hazara features..and we have conquered them from within..  Anyhow thats another story..

 

About Hazara district in Pakistan,  It was known to have been settled by Hazara's(dont know when) and I've personally come across them on several occasions.  The funniest thing was when I saw an Afghan Hazara standing beside a local Hazara in Juggian Bazaar (main road to Kaghan) and they both looked at each other in a confuzed gaze.  I must say, in retrospect,  they didnt look identical as one would expect but there were some subtle differences.  Ironically, the further away you go from the main road (korakoram highway) the more Hazara features become noticeable.  There has been considerable admixture with the dominant Pashtuns as well as the Kohistani's in the area (North/West) and with the Panjabi's/Kashmiri(South and South east)  In any case, im quite sure that district of Hazara contained a small percentages of Hazara's that have been considerably mixed with the surrounding tribes.  The district in general is a melting pot of several ethnic groups including Afghan refugees that live in considerable peaceful coexistance and is often multi-lingual.

 

Also, on another side note.. has anyone ever seen the late great singer Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan..?  he looked kinda hazara'ish didnt he??  (I know this is off topic but heck.. thought I wud throw it in since I've written this much so far!)

 

Nusrat Fateh Ali Khans family was originally from Mazar e Sharif, Afghanistan.

 

The Hazaras in Pakistan (who fled Afghanistan in the 1800s) had genetic tests that proved they were of Mongolian ancestry (but not necessarily Genghis Khan).  This is not to be mistaken with the indigenous Hazaras of what is today, Pakistan.

 

Many Hazaras I have noticed claim they have ancient ancestry but when you ask them of what, they say the Kushans, but the Kushans were not Mongolian, they were Indo-European people.  The genetic tests done on the Tocharians (ancestors of the Kushans) that were done in the Takla Makan desert in China prove that they fall under the Iranian family.

If you still require physical evidence of Turkic existence in Afghanistan, read the archeological discoveries of Central Afghanistan (Hazarstan regions). They found bones that resemble to Mongoloid features, eg. high cheek bones and etc. This was centuries before Kushans.

-------------
The perceptive man is he who knows about himself, for in self-knowledge and insight lays knowledge of the holiest.
~ Khushal Khan Khattak

One thing I've always wondered though, is the Hazara's are generally very friendly and polite, I mean every one I have ever met has always been exceptionally pleasant(could just be my luck).. so my q'' is this, why have they been attacked repeatedly all throughout history?  Is it mere ethnic rivalry, i used to think it could be religious but that doesnt make sense either since they 've been attacked by their co-religionist in north of Afghanistan on several instances in history as well..  or maybe, its just a classic case of stronger / more dominating tribe exerting their influence on a more passive tribe..

Marco Polo,

 

You ask a very good question and unfortunately it does not have a simple answer.  I will explain the deep hatred and ignorance that has been Hazara history in Afghanistan, but you may not like it.

 

 

In Afghanistan, where land is scarce, water is scarce, and cities are far and wide apart, it is survival of the fittest unfortunately.  The Shiite factor can't be thrown out completely, it has been used a reason to persecute them. 

 

Historically, they lived in Central Afghanistan and outerlying regions that were taken by Genghis Khans army, ie. Jowzjan, Bamian, Wardak, (which used to be Iranic), Ghazni and Ghor.  There they constantly clashed with Afghan Merchants and nomads who travelled through their lands to reach the different cities.

 

 

They were documented for raiding caravans crossing through their territory.  For vengeance, the Afghan tribes around them shouted Jihad against the Shiites and raids were done by Afghan tribes into Hazara villages and vice versa.   Their attack of Emir Abdur Rahman Khan's army and caravans ensued the wrath of the Iron Amir who subjugated them completely and jailed their Mirs (tribal chiefs).   The Hazaras further isolated themselves in Afghanistan by allying with the British against the Afghan Kings during the Afghan wars.  This led to tribal assaults into Hazarajat and many Hazaras were taken as permenant slaves and servants.  To make things worse, the Afghan tribes moved into their territory and the Hazaras were pushed into more mountainous regions.

 

Due to the severe climate in the mountanious regions, and persecution by the Afghans, many Hazaras moved out of those mountains and into Iran, and Afghan towns like Ghazni, Mazar, Kandahar, Quetta (under British protection), looking for jobs and a better life.  In major cities they played a very meager role in Afghan society, they played the role of servants, water carriers and other demeaning and poor jobs.  Racial stereotyping and slurs spread about Hazarajat being a land of monsters, and cannibals, and rat eaters. 

 

Not all Hazaras faced trouble ofcourse, the Jaghori Hazara tribe have had good relationships with the Afghan royal family and sent their sons into Afghan military service.  Today they still hold much power in Ghazni, and in their own district named after them - Jaghur.  Some Afghan kings showed some support towards the Hazaras,  one of them even sent an official apology letter to them while some invited them to enter into the framework of Afghan society, including the Communist governments.   Many Hazaras moved to Kabul at this point and many of their dreams were crushed by empty promises by various Afghan regimes. 

 

 

One of these disgruntled Hazaras accomplished in assassinating King Nadir Shah.   This brave Hazara Afghan did not show any emotion and did not resist any arrest.  Zahir Shah, son of Nadir Shah personally tortured him before killing him by gouging out his eyes and pouring hot oil over his head before dismembering parts of him and finally killing him.

 

During the Russian war, the Hazaras were helped by Iran to represent Shiite Islam in Afghanistan and clashed with Sunni militias in Afghanistan in Kabul where they, along with other militant Islamic groups destroyed Kabul. 

 

 

When the Taliban entered the framework, they invited the Hazara militant leader in negotiating a peace.  Unfortunately, the Taliban assassinated the leader and conquered Hazarajat instead while the  Hazaras were left leaderless and allied with the Northern Alliance.  The Taliban began a religious war against Ismaili Shiite Hazaras and Kohistanis.  The Taliban installed a Pashtun governor of Hazarajat and Afghan nomad/merchants were given free acess to Hazarajat lands for grazing of their animals which destroyed lots of Hazara farm lands.

 

When the Taliban entered Mazar e Sharif under a truce with the Uzbek warlord Abdur Rashid Dostum, the Hazaras rallied to take revenge and with the help of Dostums forces, closed the gates and trapped the Taliban into Mazar where the Talib forces were massacred, over 2,000 of them in all.  Many of the Taliban were buried alive or thrown down wells where bulldozers were used to bury them.  Some of them were left unburied and left for the dogs.  Dostum knowing he was in trouble offerred to arrest the Hazaras and transport the dead Taliban soldiers for burial, but the Taliban refused vowing revenge.

 

The Hazaras fearing a full scale attack on them, raided Afghan villages and homes around Mazar e Sharif in Balkh and Qondoz fearing their support to the Taliban.  Scores of Afghan males were killed , women raped and dishonored and many of them fled their villages.  Unfortunately, this made things worse because now Afghan villagers in Mazar e Sharif were also vowing revenge against the Hazaras.  Those men that survived most likely aided or joined the Taliban. 

 

The following summer, the Taliban invaded Mazar e Sharif with the help of the local Afghans who were attacked by the Hazaras.  They easily defeated the Northern Alliance and Dostum fled the country, and then to Turkey.   The Taliban killed any Hazara they could find.  According to some reports, over 4,000 Hazaras were killed, mostly men, but their their women were also raped, and many of their children sold as slaves.  During this process 9 Iranian Shiite Diplomats were also killed who were considered spies by the Taliban and aids of the Hazaras.

 

After that massacre the Hazaras, the Hazara's back was still not broken and they were still resisting the Taliban.  The Taliban now under the leadership of overzealos Mullahs and Pashtun fascists, waged an ethnic cleansing campaign on the Hazara villagers and burned down their villages and raized their crops.  A book that was in circulation in the tribal areas said that any Afghan who fought with the Taliban were promised land in Hazarajat, a wife, and money.  

 

 

When the Taliban were finally removed from power by the USA, the Hazaras reclaimed back their lands in Hazarajat and kicked out many of Nomads and joined the Uzbeks in committing ethnic atrocities against Pashtuns in Mazar e Sharif.

 

The new government in Kabul installed Hazara leaders in power in many sectors and they are finally experiencing some peace and progress in their lives.  Unfortunately, they are still looked down upon by other Afghans and there are still unfortunate discrimination against them. 

 

As you can see, most of the problems stem from water and land rights, but also some because of Religious persecution.

 

If you want to read further into some of these Battles, try: 

 

 

 

 

 

Afghanan your info are mostly correct brother. But let me tell you guys that not all Hazaras are Shiit Muslem. We have many Ismaili and Sunni Muslims too. I am a Naiman Hazara, and all Naimans are Sunni. We don't live in Hazarajat, we live in northern Afghanistan, Kazakhistan and Mongolia. I was in Mazar-r-Sharif when Taliban lost the first time to Polawon Dostum and Hazara forces, but I wasn;t there when Taliban came back the second time. But I know what happened there because I have many family friends in Mazar-e-Sharif. As Afghanan said thousands of Hazaras and Uzbeks were killed, mostly Hazara men and male Hazara children. We all know that Taliban are cruel but women were quite safe. No locals have any complains about their woman being tortured or killed. I know this because I was there.

 

It's true that Hazaras were treated unfairly since Pashtuns started ruling. But that doesn't mean all Pashtuns were like that. Their closed-mindedness forced them to bring up the past to torture Hazara farmers who were surrounded on Hindu-Kush mountains of Central Afghanistan.

 

Originally posted by MarcoPolo why have they been attacked repeatedly all throughout history?  Is it mere ethnic rivalry, i used to think it could be religious but that doesnt make sense either since they 've been attacked by their co-religionist in north of Afghanistan on several instances in history as well..  or maybe, its just a classic case of stronger / more dominating tribe exerting their influence on a more passive tribe..

If you want a true answer brother, firstly you have to understand a bit about the history of the land which is today called Afghanistan, knowing that it's not a land where only one race lived in the history, there were many. I think you will have a different openion than many people if your judgements are based on true facts.

 

As a Hazara Afghan I am happy that people are more open-minded today. And they all work together to develop Afghanistan. I am also more than satisfied with Hazara people's situation today. They are very hard working and they are everywhere around the world working or studying to reach their goals.

 

~Peace

 

here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musa_Khan - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musa_Khan

 

Gen Musa Khan was CinC of the Pakistan Army for 8 years, from 1958 to 1966, and during this time he oversaw the transformation of the military from a colonial police force, to the finest army in Asia. He led the army in  the '65 war against India.

 

 Air Marshal Changezi was commander PAF Northern Command in Peshawar during the Afghan war and thus was responsible was the logistic support for the Afghan mujahdeen and the defencxe of Pakistani Air Space from |soviet Planes.

Thanks a lot for your valuable info about General Musa Khaan and General Changezi. I've heard a lot about them. Their achievements and braveries reveal their great personalities.

 

 

Sparten you must be one of our brothers from Quetta, right? By the way I'm a Hazara too, from Naiman. Souds like Naimans don't exist no more, but we are still surviving  in Northern Afghanistan (ba zore Khoda).

 

(by the way, is their a link about Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan where i can possibly follow up on his background that you know of?)

 

@ Sparten

thanks for the inspiring story about those Hazara men.. I've heard of General Musa before, but never knew he was of Hazara decent.  I think, there comes a time when an individual becomes an examplary figure and transcends ethnic boundaries.. he no longer is 'limited' by what his background is, but rather, is known by his character and acts.  an example of this was once I went to cheer on the Pakistani boxers during an international boxing tournament in Dubai.  This guy was an excellent boxer and won the tournament, he paraded around with the Pakistani flag on his back all ecstatic with cheers from the crowd. Later I had a chance to meet him to congratulate/thank him and found out he was of the minority Makrani ethnic group from Balochistan.  That was my first ever meeting with a makrani and seeing him filled me with pride and passion.  I look forward to the day that this feeling is universal in our country and not just on sporadic occasions.

 

and btw.. kanigoram is such a beautiful place, I've gone only once, back abt 10 yrs ago for my classmates wedding.. have you gone back there recently? and can u speak 'burki'?

 

P.S kanigorum is a beautiful place I agree, I have gone a few times, last was in 2000.

Actually I live in Sydney, Australia at the moment. I've been in Islamabad a few times, it's got nice weather compared to other cities :)

 

The PIE's that make up the Tocharians most likely make up Iranian and some Turkic people today from Uighirs to the East, to Iran in the West today.  BTW, Wool rug patterns of Tocharians were found to be similar to wool Rug Patterns of Kochi Nomads in Afghanistan, and pointed hats were common among the Saka, with whom the Tocharians are said in one breath. 

 

Also, I'm not saying that there is no relation between Tocharians and other IE related languages or people, they most likely share the same root, which was in West Asia, not Western Europe.