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Afghanized Mongols?

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  Quote Ave1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Afghanized Mongols?
    Posted: 14-Jun-2006 at 22:19
David Morgan wrote a book about the Mongols several years ago which indicated, if I remember correctly, a language that is no longer spoken  in Mongolia though it survived (albeit almost extinct) in Afghanistan.  The language is archaic  Mongolian  that was spoken by Chingiz Khan and his cronies. 

The language is apparently called "Nikudari" which was named after the famous Mongol general Negudar.  The language, I believe according to the book surives in western Afghanistan and is spoken by a small group of individuals.  

I have tried searching for "Nikudari" and found very limited information on this very fascinating language.   It may appear, from my readings, that Nikudari and the language "Mogholi" is apparently the same, though I may be mistaken. 

I believe the book mentioned some words in this very rare language that filtered into Afghanistan, for instance the word "nokar" which I believe means follower or servant in Dari Persian came from the Mogholi word "noker" which also means follower.

Can anyone ascertain who are these Nikudari speaking Afghans? Where in Afghanistan are they concentrated in?   I would imagine this would be a fascinating subject to expound upon given the language's historic significance and rarity.




Edited by Ave1 - 14-Jun-2006 at 22:23
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  Quote Gharanai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2006 at 05:17
Originally posted by Ave1

Can anyone ascertain who are these Nikudari speaking Afghans? Where in Afghanistan are they concentrated in?   I would imagine this would be a fascinating subject to expound upon given the language's historic significance and rarity.
 
Well dear Ave1  first of all welcome to our board and wish you have a nice stay, afterward  I would say a very nice topic to start with, I have also heard about Nikudari infact I have seen some people who claim that we they are speaking is Nikudari, but they had nothing to prove it.
Infact there are many mongols left in Afghanistan specially in west of Afghanistan most of them could be found in the border province of Herat.
There is a cast (which I know of) named Temori (Temorian) who descent from Temor-e-Lang (Lane), infact I have family ties with them I mean not myself (as I am Baloch-Pashtun) but from an angle.
So it is true that there are many pure mongols in Afghanistan, and maybe they do speak Nikudari, but the family whom I am linked with speaks Dari not Nikudari so I guess it may be is limited to some special people and area but overall you could find most of them in west of Afghanistan.
 
Wish I have provided you some how something but any way I will look for it a bet more and as I get something I will share it.


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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2006 at 05:34
No-kar means servant in Iranian Persian too.
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  Quote Gharanai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2006 at 05:36
Well dear with the latest information I have searched I have came to know that it's also spoken by Hazaras (descents of Mings) who are found in central and north Afghanistan.


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  Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2006 at 07:56
Gharanai
 
I am confused to the issue of Hazaras. it is said by some that:
 
1).Some of the original hazaras were displaced by the new comers into the hazarajat regions to places like Baluchistan and kaghan areas in North-Pakistan.
 
2).Also that their were earlier settled turanian communities in the region of central hazarajat before the arrival of the later day Mongolians.
 
3).Some of who are referred to as hazaras don't display the typical turanian features and are more similar in appearance to the tadjiks and pushtuns.
 
4).Political and religious sepration into aimaqs and hazaras.
 
Any personal insight would be most welcome.
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  Quote Gharanai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2006 at 11:05
Originally posted by malizai_

Gharanai
 
I am confused to the issue of Hazaras. it is said by some that:
 
1).Some of the original hazaras were displaced by the new comers into the hazarajat regions to places like Baluchistan and kaghan areas in North-Pakistan.
 
2).Also that their were earlier settled turanian communities in the region of central hazarajat before the arrival of the later day Mongolians.
 
3).Some of who are referred to as hazaras don't display the typical turanian features and are more similar in appearance to the tadjiks and pushtuns.
 
4).Political and religious sepration into aimaqs and hazaras.
 
Any personal insight would be most welcome.
Well dear to be honest I didn't get what you are confused about I mean all points you mentioned are some how some where true so what is then that you wanted to ask? If you don't mind could you simplify you question.


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  Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2006 at 19:51
Well what i mean to say is that there seems to be a loose interpretation of who is a hazara and who isnt. Anyhow your comments assert the notion that my basic assumptions or understandings are right, but you see i didnt know if they were right.  
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  Quote Gharanai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2006 at 15:42
Originally posted by malizai_

Well what i mean to say is that there seems to be a loose interpretation of who is a hazara and who isnt. Anyhow your comments assert the notion that my basic assumptions or understandings are right, but you see i didnt know if they were right.  
 
Well dear Malizai I guess you are some how right most of the Hazaras have mixed up with other ethnics and now its hard enough to find out who is a Hazara and who is not, but about whom I was talking they are of Jaghuri tribe who are also said to be from Turks but most say that they are of Mongols.
 
Edited : Correct me if I am wrong.


Edited by Gharanai - 16-Jun-2006 at 15:46


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  Quote Afghanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2006 at 19:06
The Jaghuri Hazaras are considered the upper class among the Hazaras and have had high positions within the Afghan army and even joined the Afghan army against the British when they stormed Ghazni.  They are very intermixed with Persian and Pashto speakers of Ghazni.
 
Most of the Hazaras do not live in Western Afghanistan, but in Central Afghanistan in the provinces of Bamian, Daikondi, Eastern and Northern Ghor, Western Wardak province, and in portions of Oruzgan.  There is also a considerable population in Ghazni, Mazar e Sharif, and Kabul.
 
Majority of Hazaras in Afghanistan currently speak Dari (Persian) with some being bilingual in Pashto as well.   In the rural areas they speak with a distinct Mongolian accent. 
 
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  Quote Ave1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2006 at 09:02
I appreciate the feedback. Though it is insightful to discuss the Hazara, the Nikudari language as was stated is quite different from Hazaragi.  

Moreoever, from what I have read, Nikudari is Altaic unlike the Iranian Hazaragi, which linguists acknowledge it as a dialect of Dari/Farsi albeit mixed with a handful of Mongolian words and accents.  

Nikudari appears to still remain in existence but with very few speakers, I hope this language gets more attention it deserves.  

According to a ethnologue report on the net, there are only 200 speakers of Nikudari, mostly concentrated in Herat.  The report also indicates that Nikudari and Mogholi as synonymous with each other. 


Edited by Ave1 - 17-Jun-2006 at 21:07
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  Quote Afghanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jun-2006 at 12:59
Maybe a Pakistani brother can help out as well.  If I am not mistaken there are still people who speak Moghuli in Pakistan as well.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2006 at 07:04
The Hazaras are the decendents of the Mughals in Pakistan, the most famous of them was General Musa Khan.
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  Quote Afghanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2006 at 11:52
Those Hazaras are descendants of refugees from Afghanistan during Abdur Rahman Khan's punishment of the Hazaras for helping the British.
 
There is also a completely seperate people in NWFP called "Hazara" which resemble more Pashtuns than anything else.
 
Do the Moghuli people have any relation with "Moghulistan"  ?


Edited by Afghanan - 22-Jun-2006 at 11:54
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  Quote Ave1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2006 at 19:49
I seriously doubt the Hazaras were descendants of the Mughals of India, as a poster stated.  For the following reasons:

1) The Mughals in India were ardently Sunni, the Hazaras are overwhelmingly Shia. 

This is a signicant factor, firstly, because the Mongols, the Il-Khanates to be exact, selected the Shia branch of Islam and eventually settled in the area today known as Afghanistan.   Some scholars claim that they selected the Shia branch due to political reaons given their rivalry with the Sunni Mameluks.

Whereas, the Mughals whose roots can be traced to the Golden Horde and the Ozbegs who were staunch Sunnis.  


2) The Mughals often used classic Dari/Farsi in their writings and communications.  There isn't even the slightest indication that any of their writings had a tinge of Hazaragi dialect.

3) If the Hazara were related to the Mughals why would they decide to choose to dwell in a remote area like Bamiyan? It doesn't add up.  The Mughals were quite a regional power, if anything the Hazara, if they were descendants of the Mughals, would have likely had more financial and political influence in the area. 

Nevertheless, without veering off topic, Moghuli and Mughalistan have absolutely no connection.  Moghuli is an archaic Mongolian language that was spoken by Chingez Khan and his cronies.   Mughalistan is something totally different.





Edited by Ave1 - 22-Jun-2006 at 19:49
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2006 at 02:35

Shia/Sunni divide in the Sub Continent is not really relevent so the fact that they are Shia and the Mughals were sunni is again irrelevent. QUite a few of the Mughals married very Shia Persian Princesses.

 

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  Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2006 at 08:07
Nice post Ave, Hazaras like u said are not descendents of Moghuls, since their decsendants still call themselves moghuls and are dispersed all over the suncontinent, concentrated in the traditional moghul cities.
 
The moghuls speak urdu along with whatever regional language available. How do I klnow this because I have a firend who is Moghul. The idiot dosent know much of his history, but on the mention of hazaras exclaimed; "who are they?".LOL
 
Urdu is a derivation from persian and turkish and incorporates the regional words of the sub-continent. Also the Pakistanis see themselves as the those who continued with the legacy of the Muslim dynastic rule in India. Therefore the continuation of the Urdu language in Pakistan.
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  Quote Afghanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2006 at 10:20

Urdu is a derivation from persian and turkish

Urdu is not a derivative of Persian and Turkish, but Indo-Aryan (like Hindustani).  Urdu uses Perso-Arabic script instead of Devanagari, and has Turkish loan words.


Edited by Afghanan - 23-Jun-2006 at 10:21
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  Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2006 at 20:17
Here is the national anthem of pakistan, you can see for urself. Any farsi speaker will pick up a dozen words, a turk may also recognize a few.
Sorry, forgot to mention abundance of arabic words. Which are also found in turkish and farsi use.
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  Quote Ave1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2006 at 21:57
Afghanan mentioned that Urdu is Indo-Aryan, well, this would likely be the more correct answer.  

Although the word Ordu means "Army" in Turkish (which is how subsequently Urdu adopted its name from) Urdu hardly has any Turkish words. 
Urdu doesn't belong to the Ural-Altaic branch of languages like Turkish.   Infact, this may appear akward, but Finnish and even KOREAN is more closer to Turkish than Urdu is since both Finnish and Korean belong to the same family of languages and have close syntax along with vowel and grammar harmony with Turkish. 

In a nutshell, Urdu is very close to Hindi with a tinge of Persian.  For writing purposes, Urdu utilizes Arabic script instead of sanskrit.


Again without changing the topic, I'd like to stay on the remnants of the Mongolian language and/or culture in Afghanistan.  There are various Mongol influences, apart form various words that were introduced to Farsi/Dari, that have remained in Afghanistan.

For instance, the national sport of Afghanistan, the famous Buzkashi is a variation of the Turko-Mongolian sport of Kokburi.  Contrary to popular belief, this sport DID NOT originate in Afghanistan.  This sport spawned from Central Asian nomads who used it to practice the art of horsmenship and archery.  The sport gradually made its way to Afghanistan, and along with it, came a name change to "Bozkashi" which in Farsi/Dari literally means "goat pulling."

The highly popular food of "Mantoo" is another example.  Mantoo, a steamed duplings type dish which is fairly popular in Mongolia eventually made its way to Afghanistan. 

Now a popular menu choice amongst Afghans, next time you have one for dinner, remember its true origins!






Edited by Ave1 - 23-Jun-2006 at 22:25
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  Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2006 at 22:52
Moghuls in sub-continent originally spoke Turkic (precisely Uyghur Turkic), Baburname (by Babur), Qissesul Anbiya (by Rabghuzi) were writen in Turkic. They were mainly the decendants of Qarahanid Uyghurs, and came to the sub-continent after the moving of Uzbek ulus led by Shaibanihan from the north.
 
Urdu is related to Orda or Horde linguistically. It's a Turkic word for Palace. During Qarahanids period, the capital Kashgher (Qeshqer) was also called Ordukent.
 
The main structure of Urdu based on local language of sub-continent, with large number of Turkic, Persian and Arabic loan words.  Persian were predominant in literature during Dehli Sultanate (Before Moghuls came) as large number of Persian scholars fled to Dehli after Mongol invasion to Iran.
 
 
 
 
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