Taiwan is part of China.

And, China does not mean regimes (PRC or ROC)

China is China by culture.

Both PRC and ROC (Mainland China and Taiwan) belong to the same identity of China.

> >

Both of these are regimes currently controlling the Chinese mainland and the island provinc of Taiwan.

It is not appropriate to refer China to any of these regimes because they are all governments of the one country of China.

PRC and ROC are all part of China just like the old Imperial Dynasties.

We can't say that the state of Chin was China and Chu was not when Chu was administrated by a different regime.

It is like during the Three Kingdom Era that all three states of Wei, Shu, and Wu referred to the same country of China, called “all under heaven or Wah Ha ( I am sorry. I am bad with mandarin ping ying. I am trying to say “Wah” as in the second character of the full name of PRC or ROC in Chinese and “Ha” literally means summer.)

The fact was that China was controlled by three different regimes. However, none of them alienated themselves and called each other foreigners or aliens. The barbarians such as the Huns and Turks were, on the other hand, considered as aliens.

China is Chinalace by cultural heritage.

The vast majority of Taiwan is of Han descend. Both China and Taiwan share the same culture, language, customs, and tradition. Even the ways they do business are similar. (paying bride, exploitation, being miserly) Not true for all. So don’t get mad.

In which sense, Hong Kong is more westernized. Hong Kong was ruled by the British for 150 years while Taiwan was only occupied by Japan for fifty years. If you compare the city layouts of Shanghai and Taipei, you can hardly find any obvious differences. But when you compare Hong Kong with cities on Taiwan and in Mainland China, you can see huge differences. But, Hong Kong is still a Chinese city after all. Even during the time when Hong Kong was ruled by the crown of England, the people there considered themselves as Chinese. They didn’t call themselves White, English, British even though many of them were British national. What matters is the ethic heritage and culture.

Some might argue “How about the Tibetans, Turks, and Mongolians? They are not of Han Chinese culture.” Yes, they have differences and we control and rule them because we are stronger than them now.

> >

Taiwanese people are of Han descend like the majority of Mainland China. They should be the last ones who want to be independent because they are trying to split up the country formed by their own ethnicity. It’s like English people trying to split up London from England.

> >

It’s annoying and ignorant how some people on Taiwan call themselves pacific islanders and non Chinese while all of them hold Chinese surnames, have Chinese ancestors, have Chinese blood in them, and speak and write in Chinese.

> >

The name "China” was actually derived from the world “Chin” when the first emperor unified China proper.

If you check the CIA factbook, it says the independence day of China is 221 bc under the First Emperor of Chin. Both mainland China and Taiwan are descendants of the Chin.

> >

So was “Sino” Sin referred to the “Chin” by the West, Thus, Sino was referred to China.

> >

I love peace and I hate war but I have realized that the only way to reunify the country is to fight a war.

There’s only one way out. Declare war on Taiwan’s separatists.

I am tired of hearing or reading their nonsense or news and magazines.

I know a lot of people pnTaiwan don’t want reunification and even disregard their own ethnicity and identity and want to be barbaric islanders.

Think what you want. Just keep in mind that the reunification of China will come anyways. It’s just a matter of whether it is by peaceful means or by force.

> >

Taiwan’s separatists are the disgrace of the Han people and or Chinese culture. And for those separatists, they should better stop using Chinese languages including Taiwanese (originally from Mainland China), release their blood, drop their surnames.

> >

The whole issue is not up to Taiwan’s population but the entire Chinese population.

Taiwan belongs to all Chinese people and not only people on this island.

It’s like when you own some land, it doesn’t mean you can declare independence of such an apartment from the country where it is located when all the family members want to be independent.

> >

Under current circumstances, it will most likely to be solved by war.

I have figured that declaring war on Taiwan is the only way out.

I have lost hope.

Declare war on Taiwan. The sooner, the better.

It is likely that China will suffer disastrous economic loss and it's a loss that all Chinese do not want. But, the reunification of China for thousands of years has always been the supreme goal and obligation for all regimes. It is viewed above all matters including the economy, human lives, and anything.

"I knew someone would use America as an example."

Because its the perfect one, its not just America, it include Australia as well.

"That's totally wrong and misleading for several factors:

"1. America has no official language and English is certainly not their official language."

What total BS, if English is not the official language what is Spanish?

"European Americans do not disregard their ethical heritage. Whether it is the Italian Americans, German Americans, they all call themselves Italians and Germans even though they don't even speak a word of Italian or German unlike the pathetic so called "Taiwanese"."

And when questioned their nationality, many will say american.

" America is a country formed by several expansions. Most of what is now the United States of America is consisted of lands far larger than the original thirteen colonies.And, please note that they were "colonies" that were never considered as part of England. "

The same goes with Taiwan during the Qing dynasty.

"Before America's independence, the vast majority of Americans actually requested the British crown to recognize their British citizenship and allowed them to be present in the British parliment. Yet, it was the British who denied Amercians' British citizenship and did not allow them to be considered as part of England proper, which led to the later rebellions by England's American's colonies."

That was then, now is now.

"English whites are no longer the majority of the United States of America. The white population is largely made up of Germans, Irish, Italians. "

So your BS is claiming that the U.S. in 1800 is not U.S. but England?

 " America is more like the case of Singapore where Chinese settlers went to Singapore and built a country of their own."

The point is speaking the same language and having the same blood does not make you the same nationality, do you even not understand this simple concept?

 "It has nothing in common with Taiwan. If you want Taiwan to be independent from China, it's like wanting Native Indians to be independent from their own country."

The Americans were from England, they were English, the same goes for Taiwan. If Taiwan becomes independent then they are a different country. Right now they are not. But thats due to political concept not ethnical.

"But the thing is there is no Indian nation. England gave up on America was like Japan giving up on Taiwan. And, China has soverighty over Taiwan."

Thats not the point, the point is ethnicity does not equal nationality.

"As I mentioned, America is like the case of Singapore. Do people in Singapore speak Chinese? They surely do. Do they consider themselves as Chinese? The Chinese population there certainly does! "

Please, there are many that do and many that don't.

"If you want to talk about America, make you know at least something about it.Your statement proves nothing but your ignorant and unfamiliarity with American history.

"

as little as  know, its still mountain next to your pithole.

"Ethicity is not always equal to nationality like the case with Pakistan and India. Certainly not the US for its ethic diversity. "

If you actually read my post I've already said ethnicity is not nationality, so if you are not disagreeing with it, what are you birching about?

"But, in the case of China, the Han culture is China and the minority population is under the Han's rule. "

Right and in America the majority is under the white's rule.

"I agree that if Taiwan does not want to be a part of the Chinese State, a war against this island nation would only be interpreted as aggressive. "

Then so is the American civil war.

Taiwan is not an Island nation. Its full name is the Republic of China. It surely has realized that it can longer conquer the mainland and wants to seek independence.

Reunification of China has been the supreme obligation for all Chinese regimes. It is different from aggression. To the Chinese, the reunification of China is higher than all matters including anything.

America is not a suitable example at all. I guess you only looked at part of what I wrote.

The majority of the US will be latino in twenty years.

I didn't say the Whites were not the majority today. I said the English were not the majority today. As the while population is consisted of all European races.

English is not the official language of the US. It is the most commonly spoken one. The US does not have an official language. Spanish is the second most popular language in the US.

America is like an example of Singapore. Please read what I wrote again, ok?

It's annoying how people choose what to read and what to copy.

It is up to you what you guys think. The peaceful reunification of China is the best solution to the Taiwan issue. But I am saying that it is not possible anymore. A war is the only way out. I don't want to see a war but there is no other way out!

American people identify themselves as American nationals. But, they also identify themselves as for example, Germans, Italians, based upon their ethic origin.

I am an American national, too. But the only people who can call themselves American in term of ethicity are the native American.

All I saying that there are people in Taiwan who call themselves half Chinese, half Taiwanese. That's funny and pathetic. It's like a person in Massachusetts call himself "half New Yorker, half Bostonian".

sorry typo

All I am saying here is that there are people in Taiwan idetifying themselves as mixed of half Chinese, half Taiwanese. That's funny and pathetic. It's like a white person in Massachusetts calling himself "half New Yorker, half Bostonian".

It is legitimate to say for example a person is a mixed of English and German bloods. But it is ignorant to say a person is a mixed of London and Berlin blood.

Get the point?

"I'd have to disagree.  All the white people I know, unless they have only recently immigrated consider themselves American.  When asked "What are you?"  They respond, "I'm American."  I have to specifiy that I want their specific ethnic make up to discern their identities."

You probably have to hang out with them more often.

They say they are American. That's true. But, they also say they are German, Italian etc. German American. Italian American. Native American are the only American by ethic origin. Among American people, they ask each other what ethic origin they belong to. Of course, to foreigners like u, there's no point of doing so.

When someone from Beijing asks a person from Shanghai, what are you? Would the Shanghainese person say to the Beijing person. "I am Chinese from China"? Of course not. He would say I am from Shanghai.

But to foreigners, he would say "I am Chinese". That's the same concept.

"China has no claim to Taiwan, it has never really been a part of China has it. Let's keep in mind that China is less a country and more like a continent. Does Iraq have claim to Kuwait because it used to be a part of Iraq and because they are also Arabs? Let's keep that in mind. I just don't believe that Taiwan should be annexed by China if it overwhelmingly wants to be autonomous. "

Taiwan was made a Chinese province during the late Ming dynasty. The last Ming loyalist army stationed on the island of Taiwan after the Manchu took over Mainland China. That's kinda like what's going on now.

Taiwan was made a Chinese province earlier than any states were made a US state.

It was ceded to Japan after military defeat of imperial Qing dynasty by the Japanese.

After WW2, Japan returned the colony of Taiwan to China (The Republic of China) under the Treaty of San Francisco. The Republic of China (Taiwan) that has controlled only the province of Taiwan and part of the Fujian Province with the rest of the province controlled by the PRC after 1949. The Republic of China which was recently taken over by the pro independent party represented all of China including the Mainland until the year 1972 when Mainland China took over Taiwan's role of representing China. Both regimes belong to the same China. The issue is which one is the legitimate government.

"BTW I'm not a foreigner...I'm an American"

But I can tell you are definitely not white. Are you one of those who always stick with their Asian folks 24/7?

"China has no claim to Taiwan, it has never really been a part of China has it. "

Somebody hand me a belt, my belly is cracking.

"Does Iraq have claim to Kuwait because it used to be a part of Iraq and because they are also Arabs?"

Don't even go into it, the international law is a long drawn out process, and to this day the pro separatist will claim the law is on their term while the unifiers will claim the law to be on their term, its all up to interpretation.

" Let's keep that in mind. I just don't believe that Taiwan should be annexed by China if it overwhelmingly wants to be autonomous. "

The overwhelmiong do not. The poll shows that the extremeist only make up less than a quarter of the population,  13 percent are hard core chinese nationalists, while the rest consider themselves to be both Taiwanese and Chinese and just like the present day status quo.

"Also, its not the PRC that wants to invade Taiwan, PRC just want the present day status, its the Taiwan ruling party that wants separation over only a name. If China invade, it wouldn't be because its aggressive, it would be because Taiwan declares independence, and no country would want to loose its territory that they consider theirs. "

PRC = People's Republic of China. It is the government of the Mainland.

It surely wants to reunify China. I think you made some mistakes here. Did you make up ROC with PRC?

"Does Iraq have claim to Kuwait because it used to be a part of Iraq and because they are also Arabs?"

Did Kuwait present ever Iraq in UN? No

Did Taiwan represent China in UN? Yes

Did Kuwait once controlled the entire Iraq? No

Did Taiwan's ROC government control the entire China? Yes

Is Kuwait recognized by any countries? Yes, most of the countries.

Is Taiwan recognized by any countries? No, not recognized by any major powers.

Is Taiwan in UN? No

" Let's keep that in mind. I just don't believe that Taiwan should be annexed by China if it overwhelmingly wants to be autonomous. "

Let's also keep in mind that I just don't believe that China should not declare war on Taiwan if it overwhelmingly wants to declare war when Taiwan is independent.

Over 95 percent in Mainland China want to declare war on Taiwan when it declares independence.

I am not saying a war is wanted. I am saying a peaceful reunification is what is wanted. But, it is not possible due to the ignorant assumption of many Taiwan's seperatists that Mainland China will seat there organizing its Olympic game doing nothing when Taiwan walks away. How childish is that?

Gubuk... your from California though, Californians are a super mixed (not used in negative context) heritage peoples, there's a reason they aren't sure of what they are because they immigrated differently. In my region of the world there are three major "white"- how I abhor that term, migrations. The first was the original english, scots-irish peoples who came to found my city. Then came the German immigrants to the area, and finally some Irish and Italians came in to complete the mix. Therefore, when asked around here of what you are they'll say German, Irish or Italian.

To determine whether a nation is independent or not, we rely upon the MONTEVIDEO CONVENTION. 

Look that up. 

Find the 4 requirements for a country to become independent.

See how many of the requirements Taiwan had accomplished

Keep the topic in one thread- there is one in Asia topic thread. 

Don't make me think that all Chinese people are all like you.

"Find the 4 requirements for a country to become independent.

See how many of the requirements Taiwan had accomplished"

No one wants to go to war but independence of Taiwan is not an option. To keep the country unified is not the same invading others. Taiwan is no others. China will not invade any other countries but Taiwan is not another country.

Of course I am aware of the requirements. But, first of all, the country has to be independent for 50 years. Taiwan has never been considered as a country by any major nation in the world. It fails to fulfill the first requirement.

Don't be childish, there are no countries on earth including the US dare oppose China on this issue. China looks at it as their supreme obligation to keep the country unified. And, look at the size of China and the economic interests associated with other countries and look at the size of Taiwan and what other countries can gain from Taiwan. Even idiots will choose China as their market instead of Taiwan with such a tiny economy.

World politics is based upon power. Rules of this game are decided by power.

If you ask some Americans if they know about Taiwan. Some of them will tell you that it's an African nation. Some of them might tell you it's part of China. Some of them will say it's the same as Thailand. But, none of them wants to go to war for it?

Think whatever you want. You got the freedom. But, war is the consequence of independence. Reunification will happen anyways. I have to emphasize that. It's either by war or peaceful means. The situation of China will eventually get better as its rise in power. Do you think they will just say "Ok, I want the Olympic game instead of Taiwan?" No way, don't be childish.

The US's operation in Iraq, in many parts, is not allowed  by International Laws. Has anyone dare stopped it? No!!!

Big countries can do whatever they want on a global stage. 

China means the Han people. The Han people mean China.

That's why both Taiwan and Mainland China mean China.

But the Han people have the power to control Tibet, Inner Mongolia, Xijiang.

Taiwan, on the other hand, is part of the Chinese culture. They mean the Han people.

It's something that you might not understand.

"their right to rule other areas"

but Taiwan is no other area. It is not Polland. To China, Taiwan is as essential as Berlin to Germany.

your once again talking about invented concepts, ethnicity is nothing more than a slight difference in someones eyes or nose, it is not some mystical spititual force that binds people to certain governments.

Also, if you start any more random threads with propoganda as the topic I will close it.

"The first and only ones to determin whether Taiwan is part of China are the Taiwanese themselves."

Taiwan does not only belong to the people of Taiwan but all China just like Hawaii doesn't only belong to the people there but the entire US.

"your once again talking about invented concepts, ethnicity is nothing more than a slight difference in someones eyes or nose, it is not some mystical spititual force that binds people to certain governments.

Also, if you start any more random threads with propoganda as the topic I will close it."

Maybe you should join the Communist party and oppress the freedom of speech and thought together with them.

Your statement is against the modern concept of freedom. I am not trying to force anyone to believe in anything but discussing and debating on a political topic.

I know you have the power to close the topic but your action will be considered as an act against the freedom of speech. It is unacceptable to the free world.

You are basically choosing what you like to hear to be discussed.

"Also, if you start any more random threads with propoganda as the topic I will close it."

Not trying to be mean but I think you should improve your ability of understanding English.

The topic "War is the only means to reunify China " is hardly any propanganda but a prediction of the future using current events.

It does not try to promote any ideology or anything but delivers the message of "war is the result of the independent action of Taiwan".

It is up to you what you think. You can think what you want. You have the freedom to do so. But, you will also see a war between Mainland China and Taiwan as a result of the independent movement.

Again, think what you want and do what you want to do but keep in mind that whatever you do there will be a result. To Taiwan's seperatists, the result will be a war. That is hardly any proganda but an estimate.

"If the people of Hawaii (or Alaska ) would choose to be independent they should be independent. Same is true for Taiwan. It's called democracy. "

Is China a democracy?

Did the US fight a war against the British to gain its independence?

If you could answer the above questions, you should be able to tell whether a war will be fought for Taiwan to gain its independence.

The issue here is not whether it should or should not but whethere a war will happen and the answer is most likely yes.

To me and most Chinese, Taiwan is part of China.

I have the right to think so! Please don't threaten me by saying you are going to close my post or anything like that as Tobodai did.

Also, an interesting thought: 99 percent of the people in Mainland China want to declare war on Taiwan once it declares its independence. If mainland China really does it in a democratic way, there will also be a war.

1.  YOu are discussing Racial Supremacy.  Like Han being some kind of Arean Race

2.  I thought Mongolia and Xijiang people swept across southern China to wipe out its population once in a while?  One specific instance under Genghis Khan?

3.  Han had power to conquer but not maintain tibet, inner mongolia.  They were given to China after WW2 because China was part of the allies that won the war and thus the one who decided where land would split

4.  Hans never conquered Taiwan...rather, they said that the island was barbaric and left it barbaric until European sailors arrived.  Therefore, according to your logic, it should be European land.  Oooh wait, didn't Europe resign from colonizing most of Asian islands?  Then that leaves Taiwan as independent, no?

Oh my god.  To me and all Japanese, no Chinese were raped in Nanking; rather, they were well FED AND SUPPLIED WITH FRESH DAILY RICE EVERY DAY

Why do you want to give in only Chinese perspective?  Taiwan, whos on the other side of the conflict, should have their voice, no?  And you should post their perspectives also- so that we foreigners can compare the situation the way you did.....?

It doesn't matter.  If it does, explain 

Did Canada fight a war against British to gain its independence?

If you can answer the question mentioned above, you should be able to tell whether a war will be fought for Taiwan to gain tis independence.

"3.  Han had power to conquer but not maintain tibet, inner mongolia.  They were given to China after WW2 because China was part of the allies that won the war and thus the one who decided where land would split"

Tibet, Mongolia, and Chinese Central Asia were at some points in history occupied by Chinese administrations. An example would be the Qing dynasty.

"4.  Hans never conquered Taiwan...rather, they said that the island was barbaric and left it barbaric until European sailors arrived.  Therefore, according to your logic, it should be European land.  Oooh wait, didn't Europe resign from colonizing most of Asian islands?  Then that leaves Taiwan as independent, no?"

The island was occupied by the Ming general during the early Qing dynasty but his grandson surrendered to the Qing and the Island became part of the Fujiang province. It was made a province by itself during mid Qing dynasty.

"Why do you want to give in only Chinese perspective?  Taiwan, whos on the other side of the conflict, should have their voice, no?  And you should post their perspectives also- so that we foreigners can compare the situation the way you did.....?"

I have said many times that anyone could think whatever s/he wants. But they will have the face the consequence such as a war with China.

"Did Canada fight a war against British to gain its independence?"

Canada was a colony and part of the new world. Taiwan was once a Japanese colony but part of China proper. Plus, do you think China will seat there not doing anything when Taiwan walks away. You can think that but you know it is not likely at all. Do you think there will be no war when Taiwan declares independence. Just answer this question.

Prove it

It all depends on the new US administration.  Colin Powell, the secretary of defense, who claimed taiwan as being part of China, has resigned.  In his place, a mexican I've never heard about took his place.  We'll have to see what he saids. 

If he supports China, then whatever

If he supports China, then there would be no war. 

A minor correction, demon. Colin Powell was Secretary of State, and Condoleezza Rice has taken that place. The person you were thinking of is Alberto Gonzales, who is taking the place of John Ashcroft as Attorney General. The Secretary of Defense is still Donald Rumsfield (I think... unless there was something new I missed).

I am Taiwanese and I say that Taiwan is part of China.

Demon, I find your analogies very interesting. Are you Taiwanese? If not then can you please read up on Taiwanese history? I suggest one by Professor Qi Jia Lin though its in Chinese. There's one by Lian Ya Tang (if I can remember).

Thing is this: if Taiwan wants independence, she would have to fight China and become a US military garrison. That's not true independence, isnt it? I personally advocate Taiwanese independence and the only way that could happen is through reunification with China. Only then would we be truly independent from the US and Japanese influences.