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Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy

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  Quote Heraclius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy
    Posted: 01-Jan-2006 at 00:56

 Random point, but wasnt Constantine the Great born in Nis/Naissus in modern day Serbia? stones throw from Bosnia.

 Sorry its 5:53am and i'm still awake for some reason, I tend to throw in random things this late

A tomb now suffices him for whom the world was not enough.
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  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2006 at 01:36
Originally posted by Heraclius

 Random point, but wasnt Constantine the Great born in Nis/Naissus in modern day Serbia? stones throw from Bosnia.

 Sorry its 5:53am and i'm still awake for some reason, I tend to throw in random things this late



How dare you be on the computer at this time on this day! You are 18, get out there like any respectable Englishman, get riotously drunk and chase some wenches. DO IT!
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  Quote Mila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2006 at 01:38
Don't you mean chase some Lebanese-looking wenches?

Sorry God.
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  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2006 at 01:43
Originally posted by Mila

Don't you mean chase some Lebanese-looking wenches?

Sorry God.


Sorry, I don't quite understand......

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  Quote Heraclius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2006 at 01:44
Originally posted by Constantine XI

Originally posted by Heraclius

 Random point, but wasnt Constantine the Great born in Nis/Naissus in modern day Serbia? stones throw from Bosnia.

 Sorry its 5:53am and i'm still awake for some reason, I tend to throw in random things this late



How dare you be on the computer at this time on this day! You are 18, get out there like any respectable Englishman, get riotously drunk and chase some wenches. DO IT!

 *clear throat* I'll have you know i'm 19 now my aussie matey w00t me! Happy belated birthday me!

 Why oh why am i still awake?!??! anybody know the answer? I dont. Bahahaha. Oh bloody hell im talking total crap now.

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  Quote Mila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2006 at 01:45
Congratulations, it means you're a normal person with a politically correct sense of humor.

I raise my glass to you!
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  Quote Mila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2006 at 01:45
Originally posted by Heraclius

Originally posted by Constantine XI

Originally posted by Heraclius

 Random point, but wasnt Constantine the Great born in Nis/Naissus in modern day Serbia? stones throw from Bosnia.

 Sorry its 5:53am and i'm still awake for some reason, I tend to throw in random things this late



How dare you be on the computer at this time on this day! You are 18, get out there like any respectable Englishman, get riotously drunk and chase some wenches. DO IT!

 *clear throat* I'll have you know i'm 19 now my aussie matey w00t me! Happy belated birthday me!

 Why oh why am i still awake?!??! anybody know the answer? I dont. Bahahaha. Oh bloody hell im talking total crap now.



Happy belated birthday!
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  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2006 at 01:48
Originally posted by Mila

Congratulations, it means you're a normal person with a politically correct sense of humor.

I raise my glass to you!


Cheers! *raises own glass to Mila and makes clinking sound*

Drink up!
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  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2006 at 01:52
Originally posted by Heraclius

Originally posted by Constantine XI

Originally posted by Heraclius

 Random point, but wasnt Constantine the Great born in Nis/Naissus in modern day Serbia? stones throw from Bosnia.

 Sorry its 5:53am and i'm still awake for some reason, I tend to throw in random things this late



How dare you be on the computer at this time on this day! You are 18, get out there like any respectable Englishman, get riotously drunk and chase some wenches. DO IT!

 *clear throat* I'll have you know i'm 19 now my aussie matey w00t me! Happy belated birthday me!

 Why oh why am i still awake?!??! anybody know the answer? I dont. Bahahaha. Oh bloody hell im talking total crap now.



LOL, I'm sorry mate I'm still scatterbrained from partying from 10PM til 8AM this morning. It's incredible, I can write a detailed description of ANZAC jungle warfare and my RTW BI campaigns and yet my simple arithmetic is failing me hehe. Phew, I'm off to another party in just 4 hours, my body is going to be punishing me later I just know it.

Oh and before I forget, cheers to you also my fellow Byzantine Emperor and Happy birthday for November! *raises glass*.
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  Quote Heraclius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2006 at 01:59

 Sounds like were all going to be drunk with all these raised glasses, shame I don't drink eh?

...............

 *raises cup of tea* to my fellow Basileus, I'm sorry but thats just my thing, tea 

 Thanks to both of you, much appreciated  

 

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  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2006 at 02:19
Originally posted by Mila

Okay, a question for you all...

I've read many times in history books that Bosnian Muslims practice such a relaxed, western interpretation of Islam because they've lived among Christians for centuries.

I disagree.

Bosnians were largely indifferent to formal religion long before the Ottoman Empire arrived and the Christians who we lived among were far from "relaxed and Western".

If anything - given the situation in the centuries leading to Bosnians en masse conversion to Islam and the centuries immediately following it - I'd expect their influence would have been one to radicalize the Bosnian population (as we've seen following the 1992-1995 war).

I believe Bosniaks are largely as relaxed and tolerant as most regions of the Ottoman Empire were; the only difference is that we've managed to maintain it - and other areas, like Turkey, have maintained it almost as much, and still others, like Albania, are even more relaxed and western in their practice.

Because we're white and European, Eurocentric historians are more open to noticing here what existed far beyond Europe for many centuries.

So I disagree with this sentement of this affect of Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy, what do you think?


Well now that we are all liberally drunk (I slipped some vodka into Heraclius's tea while he wasn't looking ) it's time to answer Mila's question.

I agree that is was not the influence of Christianity but most likely the socio-political factors which were more important in the religious attitude of Bosnian Muslims.

The area has been unusually subject to a number of different religions to choose from. But more important is probably the history of the region. Let us not forget the area was under Communist rule from the end of WWII until only a decade ago, which would have helped supress fundamentalism while giving Bosnians an appreciation of everyone's right to worship inspite of the yoke of atheist supression.

The geography is also important. Bosnia has always existed on the periphery of main power centres. Influenced by Rome, but never very close to it. Influenced by Byzantium, but never very close to it. Influenced by the Ottomans, but again a distant province. The area has a great deal of rugged country which makes it difficult to access from these power centres. Therefore, it seems to me more likely that fundamentalism and extremism promoted by the central governments would have extreme difficulty influencing the area all that much.

Bosnia was never that much affected by the Byzantine war with Islam, with the Crusades or other long drawn out conflicts which leaves whole nations embittered and on edge for generations. Inspite of the recent conflict, which has had some effects of traumatising the population and leaving people uneasy, the longer term history has not been so especially bad.

Well from my limited knowledge, that's as much as I can understand of the situation.
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  Quote Mila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2006 at 02:36
I'd agree - but the influence thing is a bit misleading. You couldn't use the same word for all three empires.

Rome virtually destroyed pre-Roman Bosnia and Herzegovina, not that there was much to destroy. But they did beat down all the pagan Slavic and (adopted from the) Illyrian ways of life Bosnians practiced.

Permanant settlements were established, roads built, bridges built, Roman Catholicism introduced. For a while Rome's rule here was very strong, through local satellite leaders. But eventually Bosnians took what Rome gave and made it their own. Like the family who's given a nice, new home and tears up the patio for firewood and parks their cars on the manicured front lawn.

Medieval Bosnia and Herzegovina developed, the independent Bosnian church. And Bosnia evolved from this Roman base until the Ottoman invasion. The Ottomans then all but erased Roman Bosnia and Herzegovina. While sustinence and defense were the main purposes of life during the Roman era, trade and fortification became the main purposes of life during the Ottoman time. Farming villages were built up with Carsijas, or marketplaces. The culture changed, became more Eastern, more relaxed. An urban culture developed, something Bosnia and Herzegovina had never really known. Islam was introduced, and became dominant, accounting for more than 80% of Bosnians at several points during the Empire's reign here.

During the Ottoman Empire we evolved and made it our own - so much so that we rebelled against Ottoman rule. We had weird influences from Sufi Islam and - oddly - Buddhism. Then we had our Roman Catholic base and the greater immigration of Eastern Orthodox Christians (which began, slowly, during the later years of the Bosnian kingdom), bringing Byzantine influence.

Then the Austro-Hungarians came, another Roman Catholic empire. Roman Catholicism in Bosnia and Herzegovina exploded in a revival of its roots. Churches went up and even though the Austrians were very respectful of Bosnia's Islamic character, the Roman Catholic population, through re-conversion, more than doubled.

The Austrians imposed a European sternness on the haphazard Ottoman look and lifestyle of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

We broke away from that and ended up communist. And communism is the best way to really f--k a country up.

Then we tore the s--t out of each other and today - whether Muslim, Roman Catholic, or Eastern Orthodox - we all sit in cafes drinking Turkish coffee, in Ottoman-style carsijas, in cities with Austrian buildings and Roman ruins, and call it all either Serbian, Bosnian, or Croatian.
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