Lost Polish territories

Because you wanted to change us into allies just like you did with Hungarians and others. When you saw that we wont be your allies and that we refuse to give you even a piece of polish soil you decided to exterminate us.

We aren't the nazies that commited those atrocities to your people Mosquito. Get the stereotype out of your head once and for all!

...and don't tell us you have no hate towards germans or germany, wasn't it you who was saying you don't give a "sh*t" how many germans sufferred and that all germans are stupid?

Make up your mind; and when you do, be sure not to come back with more insultive comments.

Edited by The Golden Phallanx

Originally posted by Mosquito I don't think wehrmacht soldiers did get any compensation (could be wrong here, however), no matter if they wanted to be part of it or not. I dont care for german soldiers. They were fighting for their fatherland and their nazi party. My grandfather was polish and had polish surname which even doesnt sound german. In his company his german comrades were calling him "verfluhte Pole" or somthing like that. He was probably lucky that he wasn't kicked out of the country after WWII. He was in prison and later escaped from transport which was going to Siberia.

Hmm, that sounds really bad. Was he put into prison by the Polish or by the soviets?

Actually, I was trying to say that Poland shouldn't complain about how germany treated Poland's german minority.  And Germans shouldn't complain about how Poland treated german minority.

I think I didn't complain. remembering what happened is different, though.

Polish complaining about how germany treated Poland's jewish minority doesn't sound that convincing either, given events like in jedwabne. Such things didnt happend when Poland was independent but when it was ruled by Germany. And it were Germans who were inspiring such events. ... Maybe you right that there was no love towards national minorities in Poland but there was also no such persecuations like those which took place in Germany. Polish Jews were safe and safe was their property untill Germans came and did the same what did few years earlier in Germany.

Even though comparing poland and nazi germany in this aspect is like comparing a rascal to a mass murderer, I really think you are missing out on something, e.g. the events in Kielce in 1946.

(on a technical sidenote, most historians say that the holocaust (i.e. the planned extermination of jews) began only after the attack on the soviet union. "Polish Jews were safe and safe was their property untill Germans came and did the same what did few years earlier in Germany" might be somewhat arguable as well, unless you are referring to the pogroms of the Reichskristallnacht)

And when i said that your accusations for mistreating german minority sound hitlerish i just said truth. It was part of the nazi propaganda. Affcourse it wasnt enough. Germans dressed its german criminals in polish uniforms and ordered them to kill some peaceful germans in Gleiwitz radio station to proove how murderous towards Germans the Poles are.

yes, events before the war were inflated by german propaganda, but certainly not those after the war.

btw. I thought the only people shot in Gleiwitz were some (one?) of the 'attackers' themselves. and they didn't wear polish uniforms (not even the dead one(s) left behind), at least according to http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sender_Gleiwitz .

polands relations to nazi germany weren't all that bad before 1938 Because you wanted to change us into allies just like you did with Hungarians and others. When you saw that we wont be your allies and that we refuse to give you even a piece of polish soil you decided to exterminate us.

I got the impression it was only about turning poland into allies. The territorial questions (like Danzig and the corridor - I think calling them 'polish soil' is somewhat arguable) were more like a lever to put pressure on Poland - or to create a pretext for an attack once turning poland into allies had failed. Hitler was quite flexible in his commitment towards nationality questions. just have look on what happened in S�dtirol.

Altough, after all i want to stress one thing. This discussion slowly change into very nationalistic quarell. Im not a real nationalist and i feel no hate towards Germans or Germany. It is just this discussion which turns into bad thing.

Ok, I think I could agree to stop it here. There can really be no doubt about who was the bad guy. However, I stand by my point that you shouldn't tell others to shut up on topics about long-lost territories, just based on where they're from or what their grandparents might have done 60 years ago.

I don't think Germany got a bad deal after WWII, but it sure got its lessons. Poland sure has good reasons to be proud of its role in WWII, and Germany has very good reasons to feel ashamed. But given Poland's behaviour before (and to some degree afterwards), I don't think arrogance can be justified.

On gleiwitz action:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Sender_Gleiwitz

As for the pogrom in Kielce it is good to know somthing before start talking and accusing others. The context in which you presented Kielce pogrom suggest people to think something bad about the Poles who really have never been such jew eaters as you were. Events in Kielce were inspired by soviet NKVD and their communist polish puppets. Interesting is also the fact that communists in 1980ties destroyed big part of their archives about the Kielce pogrom. Looks like there was somthing that they wanted to hide.

I think noone can say better what happend but the jews and here you have the link:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/Kielce .html

And yes i was speaking about Reichskristallnacht and nuremburg statutes.

But given Poland's behaviour before (and to some degree afterwards), I don't think arrogance can be justified.

Its not an arrogance. All i told you are facts. And it really shouldnt be german who accuses others for antisemitism because polish antisemitism in independent Poland never costed the jews their lifes. Actually i live in the city which before the war was considered to be very antisemitic. The jews were suffering so much in pre war Poznan: one day a week polish students at university were not allowing jewish students to enter, once a month national democrates were shouting anti jewish slogans on their demonstrations. After Germans occupied my city our Jews learned completelly new sence of the word "antisemitism", including those who in Poland thought that are Poles not Jews and never had any problems before.

 

Originally posted by Mosquito I think noone can say better what happend but the jews and here you have the link: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/Kielce .html

Sounds like a typical pogrom to me: someone starts rumours that small children have been murdered by the jews, and ordinary citizens begin to loot and murder.

Of course, such events are always completely unexplicable without some sort of conspiracy theory. just like uprisings or the collapse of the soviet union...

But given Poland's behaviour before (and to some degree afterwards), I don't think arrogance can be justified. Its not an arrogance. All i told you are facts. And it really shouldnt be german who accuses others for antisemitism because polish antisemitism in independent Poland never costed the jews their lifes. Actually i live in the city which before the war was considered to be very antisemitic. The jews were suffering so much in pre war Poznan: one day a week polish students at university were not allowing jewish students to enter, once a month national democrates were shouting anti jewish slogans on their demonstrations. After Germans occupied my city our Jews learned completelly new sence of the word "antisemitism", including those who in Poland thought that are Poles not Jews and never had any problems before.

you're right, of course. but this thread is about lost territories, not about anti-semitism in the 20th century. I don't think you have enough reasons to tell anybody to shut up on this subject.

Edited by yan.

Originally posted by yan. Sounds like a typical pogrom to me: someone starts rumours that small children have been murdered by the jews, and ordinary citizens begin to loot and murder. Of course, such events are always completely unexplicable without some sort of conspiracy theory. just like uprisings or the collapse of the soviet union...

Looks like you have read only the begining of the article but not the rest.

you're right, of course. but this thread is about lost territories, not about anti-semitism in the 20th century. I don't think you have enough reasons to tell anybody to shut up on this subject.

You are the one who started talking about national minorities and antisemitism, i only posted my reply. And i didnt tell you to shut up. All i said was that if I were german i wouldnt go into this topic. Just my opinion.

Edited by Mosquito