I started talking about this a bit on another thread(about Macedonia and it's lost territories,and I was explaining Poland's situation on lost territories) and someone suggested I should open a thread about this, because it would be an interesting discussion. I'll paste what I wrote on the subject and tell me what you think of the subject:

"Well technically, it's already been reunited since WW1, but after WW2 it lost most of its historic territories to the East. I understand about giving territories to Lithuania, because it was part of Poland. But I think giving Lviv/Lwow to Ukraine was a big mistake. It's undeniable that it should belong to Poland, it has nearly always belonged to Poland, until the partitions. And it's not like the Ukraine needs it, the country is already bigger than Poland. Most of the territories lost to Poland after WW2, were just to make the neighbouring emerging states have a faster building and better economy. For example, they gave a bit of territory majoritarily inhabited by Polish people to the Czech republic, just because in that territory there was a strong mining industry. Today, Poland is feeling the effect of this mistake (my opinion) with it's "highest unemployment rate" in Europe.

Also, it is the same case for Belarus, Slovakia and Ukraine. They received those territories because of its important industries. Also, why give a piece of territory North of Poland to Russia. It is obvious that ethnically it didn't belong to Russia nor historically. I say it should have been given to Lithuania, if Poland wouldn't have been the first contender.

Another remark that I'd like to make is that why they didn't just give more Russian territory to Belarus and Ukraine instead of Polish territory."

I think it has nothing to do with a notion "mistake".

It was the well planned decision of Stalin, Roosevelt and Churchill.

I dont miss for any old eastern polish territories except Lwow city.

Perhaps it wasn't a "mistake", but it's not like it made a lot of advantages for Poland. Also don't you miss purely Polish cities also like Bresc, etc.?

And you know Stalin, he had his interestest in USSR... he wanted more industry in it.

You can't dwell in the past about these things, if you go historically we could rationalize the lack of an entire polish state. I mean its fine and all to reflect on how Poland made these cities great but they aren't polish anymore, think of them as Poland's daughters that grew up. Sure they're still in the family, but their married to other people now and they have another family.

Same goes for other nations with claims, if you can still celebrate and reflect on your mother nation's heritage than just deal with the current geopolitical situation. Borders are losing barrier status anyway.

  Tell me about it ( Map of Mexico 1845 )

  The boundaries with Texas are not reflecting the border at the River Nueces.

http://omega.ilce.edu.mx:3000/sites/1847/patria/sec/sec_117.html">

eh painful discusion (lithuanians could win first place for lost grounds too many wars, too many ocupations...nothing remained)

I think it is a major historical mistake. Great germans were from Könisberg (Gauss, Kant..).

The same for Polish East territories. Anyway the list could be far greater:

Kiev, Crimea and Belarus are separated from Russia, Setimania and Gascunye from Spain, Transilvania and Vojvodina from Hungary and so on.

The point is not to fight any more because of this, given that population is more or less where it is supposed to be, minorities are not oppressed, and EU is advancing.

If Spain were to fight for every land we have lost it would be a big big task to do.

Originally posted by demon Yup.  Superpowers are historically-ignorant when it comes to land dividing.

Super Powers are usualy ignorant when it comes to anything outside thier own borders. They are too quick to judge other nations, and not quick enough to reflect apon their own actions.

Surely worrying about historic borders is a bit redundant........ I mean I don't know if you've noticed, you're not even a country anymore.

You're just an administrative region of the EU. You don't have a passport, currency or independant economy. Your government and courts can be overuled on any issue by Brussels. Any other EU national has as much right to live, work and scrounge off the social security system  in your 'country' as you.  And this is just the beginning.

But then again you could look at it another way. In few years the Baltic states will be in the EU too and then the Ukraine. By 2020 Russian will join and Poland will not only have all it's historic territory but a whole lot more.

It's crap.

Russia was justified though since its always wanted warm water ports.

Although I think it should've been given to Lithuania or something (exclaves are a pet peeve of mine on maps).

Hmm ..and when they leave EU..have I missed some event ? 

what happened to Poland in 1795 wanted to be implemented after the first world war but for this time towards the Ottoman Empire.But it never came true.

Well, Kruschev was an ukrainian, wasnt he?

flame wars with Turks and Macedonians became boring? time to start another one with Poles? Ill tell you only one thing: Go to your southern part of Cyprus and keep fu....king your goats there.

no, he's born Russian but his family moved to Ukraine.

No reason to respond to such a Stupid comment.  Guess you dont have ANY knowledge on the topic..

Originally posted by Sarmata little helping the allies? you really don't know much of just how much the Poles did for the allies. First of all Poland was the first nation to fight naxi's and keep fighting till the end. What are you talking about one of the biggest countries after ww2? it's bigger then the former duchy of warsaw but it's not that big. now, in no particular order: "Operation Overlord was the largest amphibious operation in world history. But it took almost two months for it to be firmly established. the British did not capture Caen, one of the initial D-Day objectives, until 18 July. The Americans did not break out into open country until the end of the month. The german defenders of Normandy were not forced to retreat en masse until the Battle of the Falaise Pocket (19-21 August). The signal contribution of the First Ally(Poland) to these operation lay with the 1st (Polish) Armoured Division, which landed in Normandy in the second wave and which took up station to the south of Caen as the forward element of the First Canadian Army." in the battle of Falaise under Montogomery "a key role fell to the 1st (Polish) Armoured division of Maj.Gen. M., which formed the spearhead of the 2nd Canadian Corps on the flank of Montgomery's command. Probing southwards from Falaise, the division linked up with the Americans, who were moving north from Argentan, and, by occupying a strategic ridge, blocked the Seventh Army's line of retreat. It has beend described as 'the cork in the bottle neck'. Maj.Gen. M.'s tankmen found themselves in the very hottest cauldron of the battle. Whilst fending off the ever more desperate attacks of the german divisions who were trapped on one side of the ridge, they wrestled with similarly desperate rescue attempts mounted by German units from the other side. But they held out; and Montgomery was able to claim the falaise gap as one of the greatest victories of his career." Moving on I'll go into the Battle of Britain... " The first ally's (Poland) contribution to the victory was well appreciated at the time, but later forgotten or minimized" you my friend are direct proof of this.." Their pilots served both in RAF units and in their own squadrons, operating under British command they represented 10 percent of the total fliers employed, and accounted for 12 per cent of the enemy aircraft destroyed. Most impressively, they incurred only one-hird of the average casualty rate, whilst being maintained by a ground crew ratio of only 30:1 as compared to 100:1 in the RAF and 80:1 in the Luftwaffe. Their achievements were particularly valuable in the critical days of mid-September. On the 15th, they accounted for 14 per cent of enemy losses, on the 19th, 25 percent, and on the 26th, 48 percent". The Air Cjief marshal Sir Hugh Dowding, The RAF's fighter chief said " Had it not been for the magnifacent material contributed by [The First Ally's] squadrons and their unsurpassed gallantry, I hesitate to say that the outcome of the battle would have been the same." I'll give you one more, The Battle of Monte Cassino, now if you had heard of this then you had to hear of the Poles contribution here, if not then you really don't know what you're talking about. the Importance of Monte cassino was it was a single heavily fortified obstacle in the Allies way to Rome. "Monte Cassino held out against three desperate Allied assaults, and only succumbed to the fourth attempt. In the first battle (11 January to 7 february), the french and the Americans struggled in vain against both a determined enemy and astrocious weather. In the second battle (15-18 February), which was marked by the pointless bombing of the Benedictine Monastery, the New Zealanders led the unsuccessful attack. In the third battle (15-25 March), the Indian Division tried and failed. In the fourth battle (11-18 May), the percipitous slopes of Monastery Hill were finally stormed by three frontal, uphill charges undertaken with enormous loss by two divisions of Anders's men. A British officer, later an Oxford professor, who watched them, said that he had never seen such a display of fearless courage. The victory opened the road to Rome, which was captured three weeks later." Now when you said Poland wasn't a country before WW1, you were right, but have you ever looked into world history before 18th Century? if so you would see a Poland that includes, Lithuania, Livonia, bit of Estonia, Ukraine, BelaRus, and parts of Russia. And Lwow is a city that has been Polish for centuries if you'd like I can post pictures up of statues and memorials of Polish Poets, Kings and the little eaglets cemetary; kids who fought for Lwow against Ukrainians. If you look at the Curzon line, when it was first decided upon Poland was to keep Lwow, however naturally the western countries stabbed a knife in our backs and handed it over to Stalin. I also see that i have given information concerning only WW2, in WW1 there was no Poland so the country itself did not contribute much however keep in mind Poland was partitioned during that time so there were Polish soldiers fighting for Austria, Prussia, and Russia. IMO they contributed greatly in WW1 in which they brought Poland back on the map. Also, the book form which I quoted was by Norman Davies, Rising '44...

I appreciate a real post such as this, I did not think the Polish did so much.. But i think a big factor that put poland on the map was the communist revolt in russia, because they gave poland, ukraine, luthiania, and other countries go Germany, but after the german defeat these countries gained their own independance.

It seems that your goats were infected by rabies.

Is anyone in Poland really interested in re-claiming the pre-1939 borders? Because I think there might be some rather interesting implications...

My point was that during ww1, because of the Communist takeover in Russia, Russia gave up vast territories of Eastern Europe including Poland, some of Ukraine, and other lands, to keep Germany from further attacking Russia.

Also, you said AMerica did not have as big of an impact in WW2, abut your wrong actually. If America would not have opend up other fronts in France and in Italy, germany could of put most of their units on the eastern front, and if not conquered Russia at least stopped them and signed an arminance.. SO who says you would not be speaking German?(Even though I do think widespread revolts would of ended Nazi domination soon..) You cannot underestimate the impact of these 2 fronts.

Well, if i was a german i wouldnt dare to say anything on this subject.

Poland lost 6 million citisens and most of them were murdered by Germans and Russians. Poland lost its eastern territories because of joined invasion of Germany and Russia. Just for fun Germans razed some cities to the ground. Think about Warsaw. Germany exploited Poland and its people during 5 years long ocupation and so far didnt pay anything for the disaster which brought to my country. Germany drafted 250.000 polish citisens to Wermaht, claiming that they are Germans not Poles.

The lands which Stalin, FDR and Churchill took from Germany and gave Poland covered only a small part of this what Poland lost due to German agression. And stealing polish eastern provinces had no real excuse because Poland was in the victorious camp in that war and shouldnt be treated as defeated enemy. Claiming that multinational habsburg monarchy had any rights to Lvov i find ridiculous. Russia, Prussia and Austria all together simply jumped on the Commonwealth of Poland and Lithuania and stole what wasnt their. You should remember that Prussia was nothing more but revolted lenient of polish and lithuanian kingdom and existed only because of the mercy of king Sigismundus the Old. Gdansk was a polish city which during partitions had no will to join Prussia and Prussians had to besiege it.

Germany so far didnt pay even part of its debt for the disaster it caused during 2 WW. Whats moreGermans had the help of USA after the war when Germany was rebuilding itself while Stalin in the name of Poland refused any american help and benefits of Marshal plan which were offered to us. If it wasnt enough for 50 years my country was exploited by Soviet Union like a colony and Russians were taking from us whatever wanted for free.

So before you say anything my german friends just think what your parents and grandfathers did and consider the fact that we are still suffering consequences of their dirty war.

Right now major of my city decided to count how much my city lost due to german agression and occupation. Who knows, maybe my city will sue Germany for the war reparations.

Originally posted by Mantaz Originally posted by boody4 "I understand about giving territories to Lithuania, because it was part of Poland. It was a part of Poland-Lithuania commonwealth or union, whatever you call it, but not Poland

Affcourse you are right my friend. I have only good feelings towards our lithuanian ex brothers and we Poles remeber yours and our joined glory and achievements during times of Commonwealth of the two nations. Afcourse we regret that those times are over but on the other hand we can now cooperate like partners within EU. As well as we want to help our ukrainian friends and today we dont want to grab their land. Because now it is their land.

So before you say anything my german friends just think what your parents and grandfathers did and consider the fact that we are still suffering consequences of their dirty war.

There is a difference between Nazi's in WW2 and regular German citizens during the war.

The way you say "their" dirty war disgusts me. W.W.2 was a direct result of the treaty of Versaille and thus w.w.1 which was caused by France and Britain feeling threatening by a unified Germany which was finally putting it's foot down to foreign aggression. Before you accuse every german as a war criminal, first remember that a first world country was practically forced into starvation following the treaty of Versaille. This country was germany, a land with a people completly innocent of the war of a monarch, the Kaiser. That the germans listenned to a man like Hitler following the sh*t they had to go through could only have been expected, and what Hitler did is not the fault of the common german. Get this black and white polish stereotype out of your head!

And you truly think the german people did not suffer from the war? Are you insane? Before my father immigrated to Canada he recalls well having to eat dog in order to survive allied rations, which were actually starvation rations. More damage was done to Germany than you arrogant Poles will ever know. Out of the 16 million germans living in east prussia, only 10 million made it to what was left of the nation. One small example of allied brutality. These were women and children. Man Germany was cut in half, and what was left of it bombarded over 500 times, and you say Germany should pay war reparations? Why don't any of you just think for a moment and realize that war cuts both ways, why should Germany have to pay any more war raparatiosn than any other nation which contributed to Hitler gainning power and finally, w.w.2 altogether?

Now one thing you seem to be quiet ignorant over my polish friend mosquito is that Germany is paying billions of dollars in trying to help up the eastern european countries. 50% of the EU finances come from Germany, and they still need to rebuild east germany which also suffered under the soviet regime. Germany pays so much for the EU, and you Poles appreciate nothing of it! You're almost putting it as if the only reason Germany is the thriving cultural center it is today becasue of American aid and the only reason Poland isn't, is because they received nothing. I'll tell you what my friend, sure West GErmany received finances, but in truth it was the hard working germans who rebuilt Germany. No one gave a sh*t over the place and many people such as yourself sitll hold such criminal stereo types against it; well in truth, it was the germans who rebuilt their nation, so don't go bitching about your 40% unemployement rate until you learn to work as hard as your efficient german neighbours and apprecaite the help you get which comes freely and in my opinion shouldn't come at all seeing how cocky and ungrateful you are!

Well, sorry for saying truth if it offended you. Affcourse Germans were peacefull volk which was forced to attack the rest of Europe and wherever the Germans were coming they were bringing with them their higher culture, civilisation and were acting in very honourable way towards the people of conquered territories.

Well, Poland was reunited after 120 years of being partitioned between 3 neighoburs. Every region had different law and played different role in 3 different economic systems. Whats more during WW1 large territories of Poland were completelly obliterated. It took almost 20 years to rebuild and when things were going better our neighbours came again and destroyed everything to the ground.

Well, Germany lost 6 millions citisens of more than 80 which they have before the war. Poland lost 6 millions citisens of 35 millions they have before the war. Who suffered more? And did the German suffer because Poles invade them or it were Poles suffering because Germans invaded them?

Well, good that Germans could have tested the piece of hell in which others were living for 6 years.

Every action causes reaction. Germans were puting women and children into gas chambers.

My country was also cut in half. German soldiers were going from house to house in Warsaw with the flame throwers and explosives and destroying everything, house after house, street after street. Untill there was nothing left. So, dont except that i will cry for your german cities and people, because it was Germany that started this madness. And it was 1st september 1939 when my city and other cities in Poland were bombed first time. But it wasnt all, soon after your good german people came to my city, they started executions.

Well, our unemployment rate is about 19%.  And we are one of the most hardworking nations in the EU so from our neighbours we can learn only how to work less.

But i see that there is somthing what share both german and polish Canadians. It is extreme nationalism.

should i open a topic then "Germanys lost territories" and write a disclaimer "Poles shouldn't say anything about this topic"?

or is it just cause i'm [s]black[/s] German?

well, may father did notb exist during WW2 (like me BTW) but my two Grandfathers were in Soviet fun camp most of the time or were avoiding not being thrilled to death by the Soviets.

This what i posted wasnt really directed towards you because im always open on discussion with you. I know well how german population suffered during the war. As you know my grandfather was in german army and also saw many things. I dont want any land from our neighbours and im sick with the Poles from the new world who started this debate as well as with greek who revived it after it was dead long time ago.

But this what i have posted are facts. It werent Poles that brought the war with all it consequences to Germany but it were Germans who brought it to Poland. And some nations in Europe were suffering consequences of this war longer than others. Our countrymen in Belarus and Kazachstan are suffering it till today.

Yes and I must say my dear briliant Komnenos that you really are some german. You ignore all history unless it downplays everything about you; you only interest yourself in what makes you look guilty, and somehow you like that. You even have the nerve to insult you're own nationailty and succed in not defending every aspect of who you are. I'm sorry my friend, but you are no true german. A true german is an open minded person who views history through all it's perspectives, not just the bias ones they portray in American children pamphlets.(Correct me if I'm wrong but your primary historical information source? Not to mention your- how did you put it?-reading list?) Now you can try and bash talk me like you do with your country 24/7 but I'm sorry I'm too lazy to be offended by ignorant american-wannabes such as yourself Yes I consider myself german!

 Ich kann fließendes deutsch sprechen du arschloch! Wie ich shon forherr gesagt habe, mein vater ist deutscher Professor bei die Örtliche Universität und vor ich geboren war hat er meine mutter deutsch gelehrt also das ist die sprache wir sprechen zu hause. Meine gramatics wirden kommen keine bange

Anyway, back to english so that our polish friends can understand, i believe you misinterpret what I'm trying to do here Komnenos. I'm not trying to bring back german conceidedness, I'm trying to defend modern day germans against prejudices from people who don't understand why things happenned. If you want to keep living thinking everything is your fault without giving a moment's thought as to why things happenned the way they did; go ahead, I on the other hand would rather see things with open eyes.

your friendly hockey playing still half frozen german Canadian!

See you cannot think beyond 1939. Why did the Nazies do all this? Why would anyone just randomly do that? You sound like those people who say terrorists are born terrorists. Any thought on context utterly ignored. How typical.

When did I say those were the only 6 million? Didn't I clearly state that was one example. Have you ever heard what happenned in Berlin? In Dresden? At pretty much every clutter of buildings in Germany at the time? Also, I never said Poles did not suffer, my original comment was in rebuke to the completly bias lies you stated about everything which concerns the Germans. The Germans were suffering for the imperialistic world powers invading their country, not for the first time. And to forestall your comments, yes Nazies were also imperialists, but imperialists who only came to power because of the misery the germans were in after w.w.1, one which was unjustifiably forced upon them. (kaiser's war, not the people's) This however I expect you won't understand, also typical.

They lived it long before then which provoked the pain they inflicted upon others. Unjustifiable pain on others but still what could have been expected if you look at the context. Something I doubt you did.

You classify all germans as one massive collective. The SS were putting children in gas chambers, just like the CIA are deporting suspicious looking citizens of all countries to Syria for torture. "Every action causes reaction", take a piece of your own advice. Treat germans like sh*t, and eventually they'll listen to a lunatic who's vowing to treat you like sh*t. Action--> Reaction. 2+2=4. This is learnt in preschool, in my coutnry at least. I don't know about Poland.

No it was not Germany that started this madness. It was the chain reaction of events of the previous 50 years that commenced it. You put all blame on one people far too easily. How typical

MY source: recent Polish immigrant to Canada. The unemployement in Poland is 40%, unless you want to substract the 21% which are on the road side displaying themselves as sex objects or the others who make a living off of thievery or scrubbing the ground for precious looking metals which don't exist. 19% my white hairy ass!

You have no idea what Canada represents. We are peace keepers. We are famous for peace keeping. Ask the dutch, the people of Rwanda, the people of Afgnanistan, the people of Sudan, or any other of the many countries Canada works to help into peace. Matter of fact in Holand they stop all traffic and business for a certain time every week or month I'm not sure which, but to stop and hear the Canadian athem. They do this in thanks for their liberation by Canada's hand from Nazi domination.

Now I'm sure you will attempt to rebuff everything I've said, but once again I think you also misinterpret what I'm trying to say. You probably think I'm some Neo-Nazi or other, well I'm sorry to disappoint you I'm not that, and I do understand the pain Poland has suffered. It just vexes me to the core when I hear ppl still claiming war rapartions for a war where both sides were wrong.

Plz read my quote.

Well Golden Phallus. As you came to plain insults i dont see any reason to continue this talk with you. I can only congratulate you for finding reliable sources from which you get knowledge abut the world and history.

I trust my sources above yours, partly because I know my sources and secondly because you don't have any.

And I must also congratulate you for a disccusion well answered. Nothing beats using the excuse of having been offended to escape answering the facts. A true sign of understanding the argument. Well done. Also very typical

ps: I like your name, it really suits you.

Well, if for you your imigrant from Poland knows better than polish Central Statistical Office how high unemployment we have, there is nothing to discuss.

Unemployment rate 1990-2005¹⁾

1)Share of the unemployed persons in civilian economically active population

*)The data presented in variant a) have been calculated on the base of Agriculture Census 1996, the data in variant b) on the base of National Census of Population and Housing 2002. Data included in variant b) have been presented since January 2004, continuously.

The problem with you is the same as the problem of all imigrants in the new world. They are just rubbish which was not able to live well in their own country. Like your father  who had to leave his own country and look for bread abroad.

Other your arguments in majority comes from "Mein Kamp" so i dont discuss them.

HAHAHA, alright, believe your statistics. Funny, isn't that where they try to make themselves look good? (Cough cough, complete propaganda!)

I also find your prejudice towards immigrants amusing. The attitude you have is the exact same of the tiny monarchs in Germany at the time of Napoleon. It is this policy which made so many people immigrate, 40% of modern day united states are of majority german origin. As with the Poles, most of these people were hard working peasants but who were drivin off their country.

Once again I am far too lazy to be insulted by your on the spot insults, it is just interesting how you always speak so vigorously of how the Poles went through pain yet when your own people leave to seek safety, they are "rubbish". Do not try and downplay my father, they left because the country was raised to the ground and the Soviets were coming with murder on their minds. Only a fool would stay, but I guess you would have, that also makes sense seeing what you are.

Nothing I've said has any relation with that book. I don't understand why you would bring that up unless you were just searching it yourself for some sad pathetic argument to through at me.

poor kid.

EDIT: Nice edit kid, I also find it funny how you've just changed everything you said. Nice cover up, I'm sorry tho, I did read it before you got the chance.

Well, maybe in Canada your Central Statistical Office works for propaganda reasons. In Poland it is independent office and everyone here agree that those statistics looks terrible. Actually every prime minister for last 5 years was loosing job because of them.

Really? I thought you are quoting it.

So? most of the Germans are fools only your father was smart. Prolly he did somthing really bad during war and had no choise but escape to Canada. Along with those who escaped to Argentina.

sure, Germany was the agressor, but look, the territories lost eblogn to coutnries that ahve themselves felt the hard hand of teh German occupiers and have onyl independes for no logner than 60 years or so, woudl you find it fair to take it from thsoe young countries?

@Golden Phallanx:

first, I don't care what you considder yourself, i think you should considder yoruself an Arschloch (yes, correct spelling ) and finally shut up! i totally side with what Komnenos wrote to you and I would have wrote it myself if i had not simply descided to ignore your ignorant propaganda posts. member Genghis talks a far better German than you, yet I think he has no German heritage at all, so just because you know some bad German that does by far not make you anything close to a German, that is anybody whose family has lived in this country for over 100 years at least and had experienced the Imperial and Nazi Germany from first hand.

No, and i didnt say anywhere on this thread that i want to take somthing from our eastern neighbours.

Considering the history of my family even I have probably more german blood in my veins than he has.

Really? I thought you are quoting it.

What are you talking about?

Just a little prejudice don't you think? Weren't you calling my father rubbish previously?  Actually my father was 4 years old when the war ended. His crime might have been having too much baby fat. Not sure what you're referring to You jump to many conclusions kid.

My grandfather on the other hand was a technicien before the war and his family, so my father's during his youth, was very well off and had such things as a vacuum cleaner and a house water system. When the war began; he, like many other brain washed intellectuals as ironic as that sounds, joinned the nazi ranks and trained Luftwaffe pilots. Midway through the war he finally decided to stand up agaisnt what he did not agree with which was what he was seeing and basically the Nazi ideal. Sadly, he did not fully understand how criminal the nazies were and so endured much scrutiny by the Nazies and it is believed that had Germany won the war, he'd be executed for treason. So maybe this standing up agaisnt the Nazi overlords is the crime you're referring to?

In any case, you have no business speaking of my father or grandfather were you to choose to comment so I will kindly ask you to shut that frightiningly ugly black hole in your face. You will be doing both of us a favour. Poor kid, and if you have some german blood in you, all kool, but it's not really important because it is the spirit of freedom for germany that counts.

Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit
Für das Deutsche Vaterland.
Danach laßt uns alle streben,
Brüderlich mit Herz und Hand.

Anyways, this isn't a discussion anymore but jsut you two loners attempting ot mock me so I'll leave it at that. And Temujin, you can hate me all you like but don't hate your coutnry because I love it. [Modern dya germany you idiot!] Most germans I've met are amazed to find someone of german descent who can still speak german in the american continent, that is why I usually get along well with them, I myself always looking to better my speach. I'll take ntoe not to bring up anything historic between the years 1871 and 1991 seeing how this is the period you ppl love bashing yourselves, a hobby I haven't quiet mastered yet.

May I ask about why dislike Okoberfest? Do they not celebrate it or.. can you explain a little bit on this?

That's not at all what they were said. What you've just explained here is my argument which is to be german does not require german blood but the spirit. Notice my quote from the german athem. They were justifying who is german by blood. Plz reread what has been posted:

because it's something exclusively bavarian, and bavarians are rather different from other Germans, but foreigners who don't know the difference between German "tribes" think it's an all-German thing. let's best compare it with Christopher street day, all homosexuals in the US celebrate their affiliation that day and eventually it became so popular that it was exported and now is celebrated all over the (free) world. but nobody would considder Christopher street day a typically American thing, it's just some small group.

no we did not. I know Turks born and raised up here that are perfectly German, they even speak local dialects etc. they're by far more German than you, and contrary to what you believe, it was their parents and other Hilfsarbeiter that helped rebuilding the war-torn Germany after WW2.

K for one, you have no idea who I am so you might as well stop coming to conclusions about how german and how you want to mesure it I am, because you sound like an idiot.

Secondly, when did I say immigrants did not contribute in rebuilding germany to what it is today? I never said anything about them! Listen you can bash me all you like but at least stay on topic!

Thirdly, stop putting words in my mouth! You seem to think that every random comment you make I automatically think the contrary. Read what I say and stop referring to some imaginary voice inside your sad excuse of a head!

Just in case this post was directed at me...

No need to exaggerate your victimhood, really. Esp. regarding those polish citizens with german nationality, whether they were conscripted to the Nazi armies or whether they are included within the number of six million dead polish citizens. It's well-known what Poland's attitude and actions towards its dear german-speaking minority were like, before and especially after WWII. If you have an axe to grind (which definitely would be understandable, esp. had you lived back then), it is probably better (for you) to leave poland's pre-WWII german minority out of it.

btw. my grandfather spend his time in some Sturmgeschützersatzkompanie in southern France, just in case you wanna know.

Anyway, this topic - as far as I have understood - is not about who did what wrong, but about which territories Poland has lost. However, Poland has not only lost territories, it also has gained some. It has gained territories, which it later lost, right after WWI, and has gained other territories right after WWII. If you want to start re-changing your borders, you really shouldn't be so offended if others get similar ideas.

P.S. and don't say Germany paid nothing to poland after WWII. It got all the german areas east of the Oder(Odra?)-Neisse(Nysa?)-line (if you have doubts about who inhabited those territories, just look at the results of the respective post-Versailles referendums), except the northern part of east prussia.

My grandfather was of polish nationality but was conscripted against his will to Wermaht. He was simply informed that is german, not polish. And my grandfather didnt spent his time in France but on eastern front.

Sounds hitlerish. I guess the Poles put 3 millions germans to gaschambers. Germans have every right to kill Poles because misstreated Germans minority.

Yes i know. Germans rebuilt Poland. As for the lands it were given for exchange to Poland. Altough Poland didnt like this exchange it was decided by Stalin, FDR and Churchill and noone asked the Poles. So blame them not us. Those territories were already robbed by the Red Army.

As for reparations you didnt pay any. My grandfather also didnt recive any compensation and almost finished in Siberia. 

So then, why did you?

I always found whining about how bad one's respective country has been treatened nazi-like. It's a common characteristic of extreme nationalism throughout the world, be it Germany, russia, japan or china.

Actually, I was trying to say that Poland shouldn't complain about how germany treated Poland's german minority. Polish complaining about how germany treated Poland's jewish minority doesn't sound that convincing either, given events like in jedwabne. Poland certainly wasn't in a state of brotherly love towards its minorities before wwii. That's not to relativize any of the gruesome crimes germany comitted. maybe about who has the right to hold a grudge because of what.

I don't blame anybody. I just don't think you have the right to tell anybody to shut up when talking about lost territories. polands relations to nazi germany weren't all that bad before 1938, poland even was willing to get its deal out of the destruction of czechoslovakia by the munich agreement, so there would be enough reason for a certain degree of constraint. 

btw. your putting the blame of Russia's treatment of poland on Germany is just as nonsensical as Golden Phallanx blaming Hitler on the winners of wwi. there's certainly a connection, but the responsibility is clearly somewhere else.

I dont care for german soldiers. They were fighting for their fatherland and their nazi party. My grandfather was polish and had polish surname which even doesnt sound german. In his company his german comrades were calling him "verfluhte Pole" or somthing like that.

He was in prison and later escaped from transport which was going to Siberia.

And Germans shouldn't complain about how Poland treated german minority.

Such things didnt happend when Poland was independent but when it was ruled by Germany. And it were Germans who were inspiring such events.

Ill tell you one example. Just after begining of occupation in Warsaw one polish criminalist attacked a jew and robbed him. Polish courts were still working. Polish police arrested the bandit and took him the the court. Polish judge found him guilty and sentenced him for prison. What was the final of this story? Germans executed polish judge.

Also polish underground state was giving death sentences to those who were denouncing Jews and those sentences were being executed.

Maybe you right that there was no love towards national minorities in Poland but there was also no such persecuations like those which took place in Germany. Polish Jews were safe and safe was their property untill Germans came and did the same what did few years earlier in Germany.

As for Czechoslovakia Poland only took back this what Czechoslovakia has stolen in 1920 when the whole polish army was on the eastern front fighting against soviets. It would have probably ended in war but french mediators enforced peace. Afcourse it was stupid and unnecessary but polish goverment in 1938 saw it in the different light.

And when i said that your accusations for mistreating german minority sound hitlerish i just said truth. It was part of the nazi propaganda. Affcourse it wasnt enough. Germans dressed its german criminals in polish uniforms and ordered them to kill some peaceful germans in Gleiwitz radio station to proove how murderous towards Germans the Poles are.

Because you wanted to change us into allies just like you did with Hungarians and others. When you saw that we wont be your allies and that we refuse to give you even a piece of polish soil you decided to exterminate us.

Altough, after all i want to stress one thing. This discussion slowly change into very nationalistic quarell. Im not a real nationalist and i feel no hate towards Germans or Germany. It is just this discussion which turns into bad thing.

So at least they fought for their country. My grandfather wasnt German. And was telling it them really often.

Here is my grandfather in polish and in german uniform:

Because you wanted to change us into allies just like you did with Hungarians and others. When you saw that we wont be your allies and that we refuse to give you even a piece of polish soil you decided to exterminate us.

We aren't the nazies that commited those atrocities to your people Mosquito. Get the stereotype out of your head once and for all!

...and don't tell us you have no hate towards germans or germany, wasn't it you who was saying you don't give a "sh*t" how many germans sufferred and that all germans are stupid?

Make up your mind; and when you do, be sure not to come back with more insultive comments.

I have finished discussion with you so stop writing posts to me.

And no i didnt say that so stop making insinuations. Im tired with you and it is my last post to you.

Even though comparing poland and nazi germany in this aspect is like comparing a rascal to a mass murderer, I really think you are missing out on something, e.g. the events in Kielce in 1946.

(on a technical sidenote, most historians say that the holocaust (i.e. the planned extermination of jews) began only after the attack on the soviet union. "Polish Jews were safe and safe was their property untill Germans came and did the same what did few years earlier in Germany" might be somewhat arguable as well, unless you are referring to the pogroms of the Reichskristallnacht)

btw. I thought the only people shot in Gleiwitz were some (one?) of the 'attackers' themselves. and they didn't wear polish uniforms (not even the dead one(s) left behind), at least according to http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sender_Gleiwitz - http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sender_Gleiwitz  .

Ok, I think I could agree to stop it here. There can really be no doubt about who was the bad guy. However, I stand by my point that you shouldn't tell others to shut up on topics about long-lost territories, just based on where they're from or what their grandparents might have done 60 years ago.

I don't think Germany got a bad deal after WWII, but it sure got its lessons. Poland sure has good reasons to be proud of its role in WWII, and Germany has very good reasons to feel ashamed. But given Poland's behaviour before (and to some degree afterwards), I don't think arrogance can be justified.

You never were discussing anything in the first place. You do not udnerstand the very concept, you prove this everytime you open your mouth and continue your drawl of complete nonsense. You are simply uncapable of anything better. You know only how to scream out idiocies and prejudices. Poor cocky ignorant kid, I wasted to much time on you.

Like I've said before, your name of "mosquito" suits you. (ps: In case you know too little english to realize, that means "little bug", or maybe "thick head asshole" No kid, it's me who has grown bored of listenning to your extremist conservative bullsh*t.

On gleiwitz action:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Sender_Gleiwitz - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Sender_Gleiwitz

As for the pogrom in Kielce it is good to know somthing before start talking and accusing others. The context in which you presented Kielce pogrom suggest people to think something bad about the Poles who really have never been such jew eaters as you were. Events in Kielce were inspired by soviet NKVD and their communist polish puppets. Interesting is also the fact that communists in 1980ties destroyed big part of their archives about the Kielce pogrom. Looks like there was somthing that they wanted to hide.

I think noone can say better what happend but the jews and here you have the link:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/Kielce.html - http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/Kielce .html

And yes i was speaking about Reichskristallnacht and nuremburg statutes.

Its not an arrogance. All i told you are facts. And it really shouldnt be german who accuses others for antisemitism because polish antisemitism in independent Poland never costed the jews their lifes. Actually i live in the city which before the war was considered to be very antisemitic. The jews were suffering so much in pre war Poznan: one day a week polish students at university were not allowing jewish students to enter, once a month national democrates were shouting anti jewish slogans on their demonstrations. After Germans occupied my city our Jews learned completelly new sence of the word "antisemitism", including those who in Poland thought that are Poles not Jews and never had any problems before.

Of course, such events are always completely unexplicable without some sort of conspiracy theory. just like uprisings or the collapse of the soviet union...

Originally posted by Sarmata

What's the red and grey lines  ? 11th and 18th century?

Looks like you have read only the begining of the article but not the rest.

You are the one who started talking about national minorities and antisemitism, i only posted my reply. And i didnt tell you to shut up. All i said was that if I were german i wouldnt go into this topic. Just my opinion.