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Seyyeds of Turkey
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Mira View Drop Down
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Posts: 697 		  Quote Mira Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Seyyeds of Turkey
    Posted: 20-Feb-2006 at 11:12
Originally posted by sedamoun

Originally posted by Mira

The only so-called Hashemites who have not been able to prove their ancestry are the monarchs of Morocco.

I agree, the moroccan royal family's descendance from Mohamed is complete BS, aswell as all those to claim that they are. How is it possible to retrace your lineage so far back in time ?

What proves it ? (except a DNA analysis, which is impossible... isn't it?).

Cheers.



Wrong.

It's got to do with culture.  In this part of the world, especially Arab culture, we keep track of our lineage.
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Posts: 480 		  Quote sedamoun Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Feb-2006 at 11:06
Originally posted by Mira

The only so-called Hashemites who have not been able to prove their ancestry are the monarchs of Morocco.

I agree, the moroccan royal family's descendance from Mohamed is complete BS, aswell as all those to claim that they are. How is it possible to retrace your lineage so far back in time ?

What proves it ? (except a DNA analysis, which is impossible... isn't it?).

Cheers.
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Posts: 697 		  Quote Mira Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Feb-2006 at 06:53

The title is honorific for the Hashemites, whom the Prophet (peace be upon Him) belonged to.  The title entails no certain obligations, responsibilities or privileges, but again it depends on your interpretation of the whole matter.  It's different for Shias and Sunnis, you know.  I'm sure the title conveys respect, but that it, I believe.

Being a descendant of a Prophet or any great man/woman doesn't necessarily make you a privileged person, deservant of a special status.  Let me remind you of this ayyah in Surat al-Baqarah.  See what you can make out of it.

"And remember that Abraham was tried by his Lord with certain commands, which he fulfilled: He said: "I will make thee an Imam to the Nations." He pleaded: "And also (Imams) from my offspring!" He answered: "But My Promise is not within the reach of evil-doers." [2:124]
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Posts: 1106 		  Quote Ahmed The Fighter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Feb-2006 at 06:31
Originally posted by Mira

Originally posted by Ahmed The Fighter

 I disagree Mira,If all Hashimite(Banu Hashim)are Seyyids why the Abbasid Caliphs didn't claim this title.

if what you said is right then we don't need this title, it become invalueable cause this title refer to descendants of Muhammad (PBUH) if we generalize it to all Banu Hashim,the result is nonsense title.

 



That is an opinion I respect, Ahmed, though I don't necessarily agree with.  The title is also given to the Hashemite descendants of Abu Talib, through his other sons, Jaafar, 'Aqeel and Talib. 
I know that Mira but it is wrong,again if what you said is true what is the need for the title.

please explain.
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Posts: 740 		  Quote OSMANLI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Feb-2006 at 05:21
So Mazier you still hae not explained your statement about blood coming via the father. Or is this a cultural thing among your people?
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Posts: 1426 		  Quote erci Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2006 at 14:59
I thought the alevis are the followers of Ali
"When one hears such music, what can one say, but .... Salieri?"
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Posts: 697 		  Quote Mira Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2006 at 14:58
Originally posted by Maziar

@ Mira, ok I apologize too, maybe i was going to far. I am seeking freedom for criticism, i know for sure not everyone would like this.


No problem, Maziar.  I shouldn't have taken it personally, either.  Misunderstanding cleared, I hope.
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Posts: 697 		  Quote Mira Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2006 at 14:56
Originally posted by Ahmed The Fighter

 I disagree Mira,If all Hashimite(Banu Hashim)are Seyyids why the Abbasid Caliphs didn't claim this title.

if what you said is right then we don't need this title, it become invalueable cause this title refer to descendants of Muhammad (PBUH) if we generalize it to all Banu Hashim,the result is nonsense title.

 



That is an opinion I respect, Ahmed, though I don't necessarily agree with.  The title is also given to the Hashemite descendants of Abu Talib, through his other sons, Jaafar, 'Aqeel and Talib. 
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Posts: 1155 		  Quote Maziar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2006 at 14:43
@ Mira, ok I apologize too, maybe i was going to far. I am seeking freedom for criticism, i know for sure not everyone would like this.

Edited by Maziar
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Posts: 1106 		  Quote Ahmed The Fighter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2006 at 14:40

 I disagree Mira,If all Hashimite(Banu Hashim)are Seyyids why the Abbasid Caliphs didn't claim this title.

if what you said is right then we don't need this title, it become invalueable cause this title refer to descendants of Muhammad (PBUH) if we generalize it to all Banu Hashim,the result is nonsense title.

 
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Posts: 697 		  Quote Mira Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2006 at 13:18
Originally posted by Maziar

 so this makes clear why some Arabs are anti-Iranian. I am very embrassed, but i am glad to know that there are only a handfull Arabs which hate Iranians. Most Arabs i know here are very good friends and they are not mad with me, only becouse i "ignore" my parents belief. Nor my parents are mad with me becouse of it. Mira can't you imagine there are tolerant people among moslems, who are not close minded like you? come on girl learn to be more tolerant and take it easy. 


I apologize, Maziar, if my response had given you such an erroneous impression.  I am not anti-Iranian, and definitely not anti-Shia, either. 

It is just that you have shown evident ignorance in such a matter that is of focal significance in your parents' belief.  I thought you would know, but I guess I was wrong.
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Posts: 697 		  Quote Mira Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2006 at 13:09
Originally posted by Ahmed The Fighter

 The Seyyid is honorfic title given to descendant of the Prophet (peace be upon Him), Through his grandsons Hassan and Hussein(PBUT).

the sons of his daughter Fatima Zahra and his son-in-law Ali ibn Abi Talib (who was Muhammad's younger cousin and had been raised in his household).

not all Banu Hashim are Seyyids only the descendant of Hassan or Hussein,The line of Hassani sayyeds who ruled Mecca and Medina and now rule in Jordan, the Hashemites, bore the title Sharif.

In Iraq they called him "Sayed",In north africa "Sidi".

Alevis in Turkey use "Sayed" as an honorific before the names of their saints.
Sayeds  often include titles in their names to indicate the figure from whom they trace their descent. If they are descended from more than one notable ancestor or Shi'a imam, they will use the title of the ancestor from whom they are most directly descended.

like Sayed Hassan Al Mousawi,Sayed mean the honorfic title,hassan his real name ,Al Mousawi ancestor title(Imam Mousa Al Kadhim the 7th Imam in twelver shia)



I might have to disagree with you, Ahmed.  Perhaps the title of Seyyid, according to Shia belief, may be only restricted to the descendants of the Prophet (peace be upon Him) through His grandsons, al-Hassan and al-Hussein (rAa), but according to Sunni belief, this restriction doesn't stand.

I'm not trying to start a debate.
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Posts: 1155 		  Quote Maziar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2006 at 12:56
Originally posted by Mira

No Osmanli.  Maziar cannot provide any sources.  In fact, he is even ignorant of his own parents' beliefs.  According to Shia, a person who's mother is a Hashemite is given the title "Mirza". 

As said earlier, you need not be a direct descendant of the Prophet, but only a descendant of the same tribe.  The Hashemites - or Qureyshis, as they are more widely known -  just like members of other tribes, were traders who migrated to different places.  It is not at all surprising to find Qureyshis in different parts of the world.  Bani Hashim was one of the biggest tribes in Arabia.  Its members took pride in having so many children.  As a matter of fact, the tribe of Hashim has many branches within it and they're all able to trace back their ancestors.  The only so-called Hashemites who have not been able to prove their ancestry are the monarchs of Morocco.

It is wrong to assume that people link themselves to Bani Hashim for prestige or privilege.  The only place I could think of where such a lineage could be used/abused for some sort of privilege or social status is Iran.

Having Hashemite Turks is not at all odd.

 so this makes clear why some Arabs are anti-Iranian. I am very embrassed, but i am glad to know that there are only a handfull Arabs which hate Iranians. Most Arabs i know here are very good friends and they are not mad with me, only becouse i "ignore" my parents belief. Nor my parents are mad with me becouse of it. Mira can't you imagine there are tolerant people among moslems, who are not close minded like you? come on girl learn to be more tolerant and take it easy. 
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Posts: 1106 		  Quote Ahmed The Fighter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2006 at 12:17

 The Seyyid is honorfic title given to descendant of the Prophet (peace be upon Him), Through his grandsons Hassan and Hussein(PBUT).

the sons of his daughter Fatima Zahra and his son-in-law Ali ibn Abi Talib (who was Muhammad's younger cousin and had been raised in his household).

not all Banu Hashim are Seyyids only the descendant of Hassan or Hussein,The line of Hassani sayyeds who ruled Mecca and Medina and now rule in Jordan, the Hashemites, bore the title Sharif.

In Iraq they called him "Sayed",In north africa "Sidi".

Alevis in Turkey use "Sayed" as an honorific before the names of their saints.
Sayeds  often include titles in their names to indicate the figure from whom they trace their descent. If they are descended from more than one notable ancestor or Shi'a imam, they will use the title of the ancestor from whom they are most directly descended.

like Sayed Hassan Al Mousawi,Sayed mean the honorfic title,hassan his real name ,Al Mousawi ancestor title(Imam Mousa Al Kadhim the 7th Imam in twelver shia)
"May the eyes of cowards never sleep"
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Posts: 197 		  Quote Fizzil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2006 at 08:18

Originally posted by Mira

Lol, some of the statements made above are quite funny, coming from people I thought would have some common sense, if not knowledge about the matter.

Being a Hashemite does not necessarily mean one is a direct descendant of the Prophet (peace be upon Him), but someone from the same tribe; banu (bani) Hashim (sons of Hashim).

Fizzil, I thought you, at least, would know this much.

I'm pretty burned by my visits in europe, sorry

Then again my main gripe is against the fakers.
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Posts: 697 		  Quote Mira Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2006 at 07:18

No Osmanli.  Maziar cannot provide any sources.  In fact, he is even ignorant of his own parents' beliefs.  According to Shia, a person who's mother is a Hashemite is given the title "Mirza". 

As said earlier, you need not be a direct descendant of the Prophet, but only a descendant of the same tribe.  The Hashemites - or Qureyshis, as they are more widely known -  just like members of other tribes, were traders who migrated to different places.  It is not at all surprising to find Qureyshis in different parts of the world.  Bani Hashim was one of the biggest tribes in Arabia.  Its members took pride in having so many children.  As a matter of fact, the tribe of Hashim has many branches within it and they're all able to trace back their ancestors.  The only so-called Hashemites who have not been able to prove their ancestry are the monarchs of Morocco.

It is wrong to assume that people link themselves to Bani Hashim for prestige or privilege.  The only place I could think of where such a lineage could be used/abused for some sort of privilege or social status is Iran.

Having Hashemite Turks is not at all odd.
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Posts: 740 		  Quote OSMANLI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2006 at 04:26

You should really show your sources. Could you please provide it.
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Posts: 1155 		  Quote Maziar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2006 at 21:54

Originally posted by erkut

why not?

ask the muslims i don't know. As i said i don't claim this, but muslims do.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2006 at 21:15
Guys you need to calm down. I was not asking your opinions about the Seyid class system. All I asked is how its condition in Turkey these days.

The Seyyids and espeically the Sherifs family class was huge in instabul during the Ottoman empire and they had high positions in the government.

Almost you can tell by the family last name if it ends with El din ..such as fahreldin or arsh eldin( ercetin), Cemaleddin, etc that they are a sharif or a seyyid family...or last names such as Abidin were reserved for seyyids. The celebi sufi orders family heads are mostly a family of seyids, as well as alot but not all whose name end with DeDe etc etc. Also, even turkish sounding names such as Doğan and many others do claim to be seyyids. Anyway , the list is huge but ever since the revolution they have become invisible. When Ataturk came to power lots of these priviliged families along with Imams, and ottoman empirial family it self lost their privilages.

I just wonder if they are still invisible in Turkey... Thats all i am asking.
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Posts: 965 		  Quote erkut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2006 at 19:27
why not?
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