I don't believe in these decendants, i seen alot of seyyids in europe (london, germany, sweden) wherever i went there is this arab/turk/whathaveyou who says "Hey i'm a seyyid!"

Even Jordan, the Hashemites claim they descended from the prophet for legitimacy to rule reasons, but there is no solid evidence.

I don't believe either, everyone knows Mohammad had no offsprings. His children died all in their childhood.

Well i don't know, all seyyeds i know claim they are direct descandants of Mohammad.

And do you think hashemis had so much offsprings streched in the whole world? were the Hashemis supermen?

"I don't believe either, everyone knows Mohammad had no offsprings. His children died all in their childhood."

So who did the Caliph Ali marry?

"How a can Turk be descendant of Muhammed? "

Ones ancestors can be of diffrent nation, surely Turks of all races should know that.

Ofcourse there are Seyyids out there in various countries. However i do agree with the point that the can be many false claims out there.

Well i won't claim this, you muslims do: the blood of man won't be given by a woman.

ask the muslims i don't know. As i said i don't claim this, but muslims do.

You should really show your sources. Could you please provide it.

No Osmanli.  Maziar cannot provide any sources.  In fact, he is even ignorant of his own parents' beliefs.  According to Shia, a person who's mother is a Hashemite is given the title "Mirza". 

As said earlier, you need not be a direct descendant of the Prophet, but only a descendant of the same tribe.  The Hashemites - or Qureyshis, as they are more widely known -  just like members of other tribes, were traders who migrated to different places.  It is not at all surprising to find Qureyshis in different parts of the world.  Bani Hashim was one of the biggest tribes in Arabia.  Its members took pride in having so many children.  As a matter of fact, the tribe of Hashim has many branches within it and they're all able to trace back their ancestors.  The only so-called Hashemites who have not been able to prove their ancestry are the monarchs of Morocco.

It is wrong to assume that people link themselves to Bani Hashim for prestige or privilege.  The only place I could think of where such a lineage could be used/abused for some sort of privilege or social status is Iran.

Having Hashemite Turks is not at all odd.

I'm pretty burned by my visits in europe, sorry

Then again my main gripe is against the fakers.

 The Seyyid is honorfic title given to descendant of the Prophet (peace be upon Him), Through his grandsons Hassan and Hussein(PBUT).

the sons of his daughter Fatima Zahra and his son-in-law Ali ibn Abi Talib (who was Muhammad's younger cousin and had been raised in his household).

not all Banu Hashim are Seyyids only the descendant of Hassan or Hussein,The line of Hassani sayyeds who ruled Mecca and Medina and now rule in Jordan, the Hashemites, bore the title Sharif.

In Iraq they called him "Sayed",In north africa "Sidi".

Alevis in Turkey use "Sayed" as an honorific before the names of their saints.
Sayeds  often include titles in their names to indicate the figure from whom they trace their descent. If they are descended from more than one notable ancestor or Shi'a imam, they will use the title of the ancestor from whom they are most directly descended.

like Sayed Hassan Al Mousawi,Sayed mean the honorfic title,hassan his real name ,Al Mousawi ancestor title(Imam Mousa Al Kadhim the 7th Imam in twelver shia)

 so this makes clear why some Arabs are anti-Iranian. I am very embrassed, but i am glad to know that there are only a handfull Arabs which hate Iranians. Most Arabs i know here are very good friends and they are not mad with me, only becouse i "ignore" my parents belief. Nor my parents are mad with me becouse of it. Mira can't you imagine there are tolerant people among moslems, who are not close minded like you? come on girl learn to be more tolerant and take it easy. 

 I disagree Mira,If all Hashimite(Banu Hashim)are Seyyids why the Abbasid Caliphs didn't claim this title.

if what you said is right then we don't need this title, it become invalueable cause this title refer to descendants of Muhammad (PBUH) if we generalize it to all Banu Hashim,the result is nonsense title.

please explain.

The title is honorific for the Hashemites, whom the Prophet (peace be upon Him) belonged to.  The title entails no certain obligations, responsibilities or privileges, but again it depends on your interpretation of the whole matter.  It's different for Shias and Sunnis, you know.  I'm sure the title conveys respect, but that it, I believe.

Being a descendant of a Prophet or any great man/woman doesn't necessarily make you a privileged person, deservant of a special status.  Let me remind you of this ayyah in Surat al-Baqarah.  See what you can make out of it.

"And remember that Abraham was tried by his Lord with certain commands, which he fulfilled: He said: "I will make thee an Imam to the Nations." He pleaded: "And also (Imams) from my offspring!" He answered: "But My Promise is not within the reach of evil-doers." [2:124]

I agree, the moroccan royal family's descendance from Mohamed is complete BS, aswell as all those to claim that they are. How is it possible to retrace your lineage so far back in time ?

What proves it ? (except a DNA analysis, which is impossible... isn't it?).

Cheers.

I didn't say"The title entails  certain obligations, responsibilities or privileges" .

The Seyyid is like other people,I don't see anything about privilege in my previous topic,you get me wrong.

agree with you about convoys respect.

I know this verse but it hasn't any relation about what we talking,we are not here to know the evil and the angel and the Imam.

Finally,you didn't answer my question.

last month my brother gave me a huge poster which has all the "family" tree of the Prophets from Adam, it was intersting to see, the last bit of it has the decendents of the Prophet pbuh through his daughter Fatima, i guess the people calling themselvs Hashimits today are the ones decendent from Ali not the Prophet, Caliph Ali raa, married more than one wife after the death of prophet's daughter.

i agree more with Ahmad's post here than mira's, the people call themselvs Sayyeds are the ones who think that they are from the Prophet's blood line not from the Banu Haship trib

i personally think its not true. and these people are making this up just to get more people to support them. and they are mostly She'as.

i remember in 98 i saw a programme here in Australia about Saddam and the jornalist went to a huge she'e mosque in Karbala and they Imam of the mosque said that Saddam is one of the prophet's decendents !! and he showed him a Poster with prophet's family tree , the Prophet's name was the tree and saddam was one of the leafs

Salaamz azimuth,

I disagree.  All the Hashemites in the UAE are Sunni Saadah (Sayyids).  Their birth certificates, as well as their passports carry the title in them.  I speak out of knowledge, as my grandmother is a Sayyida.  She is the cousin of al-Sayyid al-Hashemi, Director of the Dubai Courts, and the aunt of Emaar's director.  And yes, they are able to trace back their ancestors just like you can, and they do have family trees.

The title Sayyid is not restricted to the descendants of Ali (rAa), at least not according to Sunni belief.  It includes all Hashemite descendants through Abu Talib, and his sons (rAa).

trace beck their ancestors to who? which one of the Hashemites?

who is talib?

or you meant Abu Talib ?

and AFAIK the people who has Hashimi as their last names are from Yemen and the ones who came from Iran in the last centurey.

in iran there are shie'e and sunnie Hashimis the ones who came from Iran to arabia are the sunnie ones.

dont know if they were in Arabia then they moved to iran and then came back or not.

Talib is the son of Abu Talib, azimuth.  You need to do some reading.

As for the Hashemites, the Sunni ones are from Hijaz + Iran.  And yes, the ones from Persia were returning migrants.  Hijazis, however, have always been here.  The late King Hussein of Jordan is a Hijazi Hashemite, so are most of the Hashemites in the UAE.  I know quite a number of them come from Iran as well.  Their looks reveal that.

lol

well Abu Talib is much much more famouse than Talib.

anyway didnt know that they had titles, i was thinking that guy called Al Sayyed Al Hashimi was his name not his title !!

i guess its just the ones who hold higher position in the country are the ones who are usuing their titles.

also i think its stupid to use such title "sayyed", which is usually translated as Mister in english.

or they meant Sayyed as in Master?

anyway both aren't appropriate i think, so as having the title Sheikh for the ruler's sons . the sheikh title supposed to be the ruler only and whoever get to that position not everybody from that family. not everybody related to the king called king !, calling them princes is more correct that they are from the royal family.

No, his name is not al-Sayyid.  His name is Mohammed.  In Jordan, women carry the title "Sharifa."  They don't apply that here in the UAE.  So my grandmother doesn't carry a title, but she's automatically "bint el-Sayyid Ahmed," if you know what I mean.

Most of them use the title, even the ones who are as young as 20.  They don't use that informally, but it's always there on official papers.  My 20 year old cousin is al-Sayyid Abdullah, for instance.

I don't think it conveys any special meaning.  As said, it is an honorific title and shouldn't be used/abused for personal gains.  It doesn't make one a better person or deservant of a big position. 

One of the things I noticed during taraweeh in Ramadan is that they'll have water cups distributed in the mosque before, during and after prayers.  My grandmother refuses to drink the water no matter how thirsty she is, because according to Hashemite protocol, "la tajooz al sadaqah 3alayhim."  That's the only 'different' thing I've seen the Hashemites do.

Greetings Mira. I'm curious if you are 100% sure that all Hashemites in UAE are Sunnis? I know personally two Emiratis who are Sayyids. One from Abu Dhabi and he is Sunni. One from Dubai and he is Shiite.

I have to agree with Azimuth on the point he raised that no official papers should mention that title. When an official document mention that title in your name, it makes it an official title or name. A prince does not have on his passport next to his name AL Prince So & So. So, I think we don't need to know that he/she is Al Sayed So & So on official documents. Afterall, what is the reason to have that on official documents of the government of UAE, like your passport?

I did notice that protocol in their actions and I think it is beautiful because it teaches humbleness and force them not to accept free tributes. However, how does this protocol is practiced without a collision with another Hashemite protocol where they are to be recognized to receive an annual financial tributes from the public?

Salaamz çok geç,

Some of those who call themselves Sayyids are not Hashemites, or at least don't carry that last name.  The ones who carry the last name in the UAE are all Sunnis.

There's no reason but to honor and pay respect to those descendant from the Prophet's (peace be upon Him) tribe and family.  I don't see why not.

That will require a "Bayt Maal" for the Muslims to fulfill that, which we don't have these days.  Such monetary amounts are also deducted from the spoils of war.  Do we have such wars nowadays?

Saddam suddenly claimed he is decendent of Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) through his grandson Hussein(PBUH).

they made poems,songs,etc to glorify this event.

hehe If I decide to become tiran at some muslim country, I will decleare myself as seyit too.

By the way, there are turkish, kurdish and arabish seyit in Turkey. Marriage and asimilation changed their ethnics.

But well I think at least 90% of them is fake.

AsalamuAleykum,

Firstly i would like to thank you all for such an informative debate. I have found it very interesting. Jazakallah Kheyr/Jazaki

Although i would like to make the point for all non-Muslims that this whole title thing is un-Islamic and is more cultural more than anything else.

WassalamuAleykum,

OSMANLI

Salaamz çok geç,

You're absolutely right.  I just need to clarify that I'm not justifying their having any titles (although I don't see why not); I was simply offering an explanation.  In an earlier response, I posted this ayyah, which more or less supports your statement - which really means we're in total agreement regarding this - :

"And remember that Abraham was tried by his Lord with certain commands, which he fulfilled: He said: "I will make thee an Imam to the Nations." He pleaded: "And also (Imams) from my offspring!" He answered: "But My Promise is not within the reach of evil-doers." [2:124]

My point is, I don't see why they can't carry harmless titles that give them no privileges or status above others.  If they can't earn respect, they can at least inherit the title as a 'secular' one, just like the English "Sir," and "Lord," you know?

Most of the existing Hashemites - including those who claim to be - are pretty well-off financially, so the hukm regarding the zakaah, I would assume, becomes void.  Besides, there's no government entity that gives out zakaah to the poor anymore.

just a question, do most Seyed's wear the green turban?

And also i met A Seyed from Iraq once, he was a beutiful man, his character was so charming and intelligent. He was a great man i must say, and even when he spoke it made me feel he is soo intelligent. Very polite man indeed, and if your asking about the Validity of people claiming they are Seyed,, then i would put this guy into those being decendant.

yes

As far as i know turban colors with she'es has meanings, the Black color are they "Sayyeds" and the white color are the normal religious people.

no Khadim al-haramayn was chosen by the late king fahad to replace "his majesty" title.

i think the title "khadem alharamayn" was used by one of the Abbasids Caliphs, not sure.

is wearing kind of color important?

I mean my father found it crazy when he whas in hajj 2 years ago, that Iranians and iraqi hajji's weared black clothes under 45°C!

I didnt see anyone who justify Khadem Al Haramayn title. But anyhow, It is not an inherited title by birth as Sayyid.  It is a position title as King, Minister, Vasir, or whatever. Notice only the King can be named Khadem Al Haramayn when he reaches the crown. He cannot get that title by birth, in contrast to Sayyid.  The title as old as the Abbasyd caliphs assumed. The distinction between Khadem Al Haramayn title and Sayyid application can be summerized in two points:

1- Khadem Al Haramayn is earned when the position is reached (to be the king of who is protecting the two holy mosques) in contrast to Sayyid which it is inherited by birth.

2- Khadem Al Haramayn title means custodian of the two holy mosques and and can be attained by any who assume this position regardless of bloodline. Whereas Sayyid is a bloodline title and totally exclusive.

Some people say Khadem Al Haramayn is a title that suppose to de-glorify the King, since it is literally translated as "servant=Khadem", and it serves a reminder of the position and obligation of the king. Al Sayyid title serves only one purpse. You yourself summerized it as:

Well any title is harmless, either King, Khadem Al Haramayn, Sir, Sayyid. However what is the essense of assuming that title? To point out the descendancy of the prophet. Can you guess why do I need to know that you are a descendant of the prophet? Unless Im suppose to react different to the Sayyid title, there is no point of telling me your blood lineage without asking.

If it is up to me, any title that is exclusive and points out to bloodline lineage is only aimed to extend proudness of that lineage. Something we call in Arabic "Tafakher Bel Ansab" "ÊÝÇÎÑ ÈÇáÃäÓÇÈ" and this is definitely at least discourged in Islam. The title is harmless? well maybe for you but in many parts of the world,  people are expected to react different to the title and they glorify the holder of that title just by default. So definitely it serves a purpse either way.

Why is the ruling family in your country, for example, allowed to preserve their family and lineage as royalty, while the descendants of the Prophet (peace be upon Him) and the Hashemites should be discouraged and disallowed from doing so? 

Al Tafakhur bi al-Ansaab is not necessarily un-Islamic.  If it was, as you say, then the Prophet (peace be upon Him) wouldn't have made it one of the "qualities" that a man can look for in a potential wife; "nassab."  It is not Islamic, but it is also not un-Islamic.  It is a cultural characteristic of the Arabs that predates Islam, but was not displaced by it.

look at the title for this topic.. i dont understand much wht u guys were saying ... lol...

Seyyed.. Sayyid..Seyed... looks like have different ways of spelling and  who this people are actually?

In malaysia... we have some people name "Syed"

I wonder this name is having connection with wht u guys are talking here...
For anyone whose father names is Syed... the son will carry the name also.. for daughter.. Sharifah...

Example:
Syed Indra B. Syed Omar
Sharifah Shakirah Bt. Syed Omar

and i guess.. they are all Sunni...

Just wondering....

All of you who rwrote that Prophet Mohamed peace be upon him had no children are wrong.

Khadija was the Prophet's first wife and the mother of the only child to survive him,his daughter Fatima Az-Zahra,who married Ali Ibn Abu Talib,the Prophtet's cousin and son in law.

Their descendants are sharifs or Seyyeds. Also the Fatimides Dynasty who ruled Egypt and the Arab world are descendants of Fatima. In Cairo today you can find Sayeda Zeinab's Mosque was  where the  grand daughter of the prophet is buried. The Alaoui Dynasty of Morroco are also Sharifs. King Abdallah II of Jordan is a Hachemite who can claim to be a sharif (descendant of the Prophet).

It is also true that the genalogy tree of the Prophet has been manipulated in some unscrupulos  cases which created tens of thousands of false sharifs. That does not prove that he had no descendants.

Sharifs are nobles and Sayyeds Lords

it shouldn't be important.

and those who say that they are desendant of the prophet are not better muslims or anything. each as per his/her work not by his/her bloodline.