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Turkish Professor: Muslims Discovered Ame

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Turkish Professor: Muslims Discovered Ame
    Posted: 13-Dec-2006 at 07:58
I bet not only Tales and Archimedes but also Isaac Newton and Einstein are included in Van Sertima's list of Black Scientists.
 
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  Quote Hellios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2006 at 07:57
LOL LOL Pinguin,
 


Edited by Hellios - 13-Dec-2006 at 08:12
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  Quote Hellios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2006 at 07:47
I find Van Sertima a bit racist.  A white man would get crucified for a book called "whites in science".  I suppose it's more complex than that though.
 
 
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  Quote perikles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Dec-2006 at 23:32
Originally posted by pinguin

Originally posted by perikles

they ride the sharks and the dolphins.
 
Great idea for a SF tale, Van Sertima style!
I will borrow it LOL
 
Originally posted by perikles

I also think that monkeys were the first who discover america
lets be serious.

This is serious. American monkeys separated from theirs Africans and Asian cousins long time ago, since the time the single continent splited. Tens of millions years ago.

American monkeys didn't evolved into man; that happened only in Africa. In one sense, all mankind is descendent of an African tribe living in Kenya some 60.000 years ago. The closest people to those ancient tribe (in genetic terms) that lives today is the Bushmen of South Africa.
 
Penguin
 
 
In that area are any muslins?
If yes then the america was discovered by them. So the proffesor is right.
Samos national guard.

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Dec-2006 at 04:57
Originally posted by perikles

they ride the sharks and the dolphins.
 
Great idea for a SF tale, Van Sertima style!
I will borrow it LOL
 
Originally posted by perikles

I also think that monkeys were the first who discover america
lets be serious.

This is serious. American monkeys separated from theirs Africans and Asian cousins long time ago, since the time the single continent splited. Tens of millions years ago.

American monkeys didn't evolved into man; that happened only in Africa. In one sense, all mankind is descendent of an African tribe living in Kenya some 60.000 years ago. The closest people to those ancient tribe (in genetic terms) that lives today is the Bushmen of South Africa.
 
Penguin
 


Edited by pinguin - 12-Dec-2006 at 05:15
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  Quote perikles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Dec-2006 at 04:27
they ride the sharks and the dolphins. I also think that monkeys were the first who discover america
lets be serious.
Samos national guard.

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Dec-2006 at 10:26
Let's agree:
 
Ha Ha Ha Ha
 
 
Ha Ha Ha Ha. How swimming?
 
Ha Ha Ha Ha, WinkLOLLOLCry
 
Regards,
 
Pinguin


Edited by pinguin - 11-Dec-2006 at 10:28
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  Quote explorer6 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Dec-2006 at 08:53
Originally posted by Hellios

Originally posted by explorer6

You call Van Sertima a sambo charlatan, but it is you who are an ignorant mestizo (or claim to be a mestizo for the sake of argument). 
 
Shocked LOL 


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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Dec-2006 at 08:10
Originally posted by explorer6


Well if you understand genetic drift, vectors, etc.  then you will understand why it did not have to happen before. You don't even know that these diseases were a problem in West Africa at the specific times.  And Van Sertima does not only sugget contacts from West Africa.
 
Well, is great you understand genetic drift, vectors, etc. What you don't get though is that Van Sertima is a charlatan LOL
Originally posted by explorer6


Malaria and other diseases were also widespread in Southeast Asia at the time of European colonization but were not carried into the Pacific by Proto-Oceanic people.  Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence! A well-known corollary.
 
Yes, there is no evidence of absence, but that is not evidence of presence EITHER Wink
 
You don't have A SINGLE proof of presence of West Africans in the Americas in pre-contact times, because there were no Africans in the Americas at those times. They didn't have the technology at all!
 
How do you think they came to the Americas. Swimming?
 

Originally posted by explorer6


Please at least knowabout these topics before posting in ignorance! 
  
 
The same for you sir. I bet you have no idea of pre-columbian history and peoples at all, except for the science fiction novel of Van Sertima Wink

Originally posted by explorer6


You call Van Sertima a sambo charlatan, but it is you who are an ignorant  mestizo (or claim to be a mestizo for the sake of argument).
 
Yes, Van Sertima is a pretty smart fellow, indeed, he make money saling books.
 
And I am mestizo and proud of it. If you think I am an ignorant, please tell me what you want to learn. Perhaps some lessons on Pre-columbian past would be ok, don't you think? I think you need them LOL
 
Best regards,
 
Omar Vega (Allias Pingun(o), Penguin in Spanish Wink)
 
 
 


Edited by pinguin - 11-Dec-2006 at 08:12
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  Quote Hellios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Dec-2006 at 07:39
Originally posted by explorer6

You call Van Sertima a sambo charlatan, but it is you who are an ignorant mestizo (or claim to be a mestizo for the sake of argument). 
 
Shocked LOL 


Edited by Hellios - 11-Dec-2006 at 07:41
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  Quote explorer6 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Dec-2006 at 07:31
Originally posted by pinguin

Originally posted by explorer6

[QUOTE=Mixcoatl]

Hehe, is that the best you have?  You must first learn about the phenomenon of genetic drift, vectors, etc.  For example, the Pacific Islanders did not carry Old World diseases into the Outer Pacific.
....
 

 
 Why it didn't happened before?
 


Well if you understand genetic drift, vectors, etc.  then you will understand why it did not have to happen before. You don't even know that these diseases were a problem in West Africa at the specific times.  And Van Sertima does not only sugget contacts from West Africa.

Malaria and other diseases were also widespread in Southeast Asia at the time of European colonization but were not carried into the Pacific by Proto-Oceanic people.  Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence! A well-known corollary.

Please at least knowabout these topics before posting in ignorance! 

You call Van Sertima a sambo charlatan, but it is you who are an ignorant  mestizo (or claim to be a mestizo for the sake of argument).

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Dec-2006 at 07:02
Originally posted by explorer6

Originally posted by Mixcoatl

If the Olmecs would have been influenced by Africans those African visitors would also have brought deseases with them. Which they clearly didn't, because Native Americans were not exposed to Old World deseases until the arrival of the Spanish after 1492. So any intensive precolumbian contact between America and the Old World is simply impossible.


Hehe, is that the best you have?  You must first learn about the phenomenon of genetic drift, vectors, etc.  For example, the Pacific Islanders did not carry Old World diseases into the Outer Pacific.
....
 
There is no evidence of the presence of modern West Africans before the contact times in the Americas.
 
The idea is not prove they have not come. They idea is prove they have. And there is no proof of that at all.
 
Finally, you should know that Subsaharan Africa is one of the places that have most contagious disseases on the planet, and was always a region were disseases were widespread. To prove the point Europeans and Arabs could not invade and colonize those regions easily before the invention of vaccines!!
 
Now, if West Africans had arrived to the Americas, certainly that would changed the biology of Native Americans improving theirs inmune system. That didn't happened because Africans never came to the Americas!!!
 
Only a decade after slavery started in the Americas, yellow fever, carried by Africans, become permanent in tropical Americas. Why it didn't happened before?
 
Penguin
 
 
 
 


Edited by pinguin - 11-Dec-2006 at 07:06
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Dec-2006 at 06:56
Originally posted by explorer6

...
Van Sertima is half Macusi Indian (Carib).
 
Well, he is a very intelligent Sambo (Afro-Indigenous) individual then, who made his fortune saling fantasies to the right ethnic group.
 
I bet, he doesn't believe his hypothesis himself.
 
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  Quote explorer6 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Dec-2006 at 06:46
Originally posted by pinguin

Originally posted by explorer6

...
Hey, it's much more complex than that.  Most of the so-called defenders of indigenous cultures from hall of maat (bs) are not Native American activists.  Many of true NAs support or are open to Van Sertima! 
 
  
 

 
Van Sertima is a mulatto and a very intelligent man. 


Van Sertima is half Macusi Indian (Carib).

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  Quote explorer6 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Dec-2006 at 06:41
Originally posted by Mixcoatl

If the Olmecs would have been influenced by Africans those African visitors would also have brought deseases with them. Which they clearly didn't, because Native Americans were not exposed to Old World deseases until the arrival of the Spanish after 1492. So any intensive precolumbian contact between America and the Old World is simply impossible.




Hehe, is that the best you have?  You must first learn about the phenomenon of genetic drift, vectors, etc.  For example, the Pacific Islanders did not carry Old World diseases into the Outer Pacific.

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2006 at 15:50
Originally posted by Mixcoatl

If the Olmecs would have been influenced by Africans those African visitors would also have brought deseases with them. Which they clearly didn't, because Native Americans were not exposed to Old World deseases until the arrival of the Spanish after 1492. So any intensive precolumbian contact between America and the Old World is simply impossible.

The 'negroid' basalt faces are very easy to explain without the need for contact with Africans: try to make a head out of basalt with prehistoric tools only that does not look negroid. I bet that would be very difficult.

Furthermore craniology is a branch of science that has been completely debunked, so results drawn from measuring skulls are not to be taken seriously.

Finaly assuming Africans have influenced Native Americans because both built piramids is simply ridiculous. There are scores of ancient civilizations that built piramids. And the reason is very simple: if you want to build something big and tall, the best you can make with primitive tools is a piramid.
 
Completely agree. Besides, people forget the following:
 
Americans Indians, particulary those living in the regions from Mexico to Peru, were MORE ADVANCED technologically than West Africans almost all the history, up to the times of the Muslim Invasion of Western Subsaharian Africa (XII Century)
 
If anyone would have progress with a contact would have been the Africans, not the Olmecs, and the contact would have happened in Africa, simply because the Amerindians knew the sail and West Africans didn't, Amerindians have monumental works and Africans didn't, Amerindians knew writing and West Africans didn't have it!
 
There are no proof whatsoever of presence of Africans in pre-Contact Americas at all, not genetic or otherwise. Just an style of art is not enough a proof at all. Even more, most of the statues and arts of the Olmecs show people with  "oriental eyes", because they were Amerindians.
 
It is hard to believe there are adults who believe blindly in a charlatan like Van Sertima, but that don't realize his fantasies have no support at all outside his political movement.
 
Olmecs were Amerindians, period.
 
Penguin.
 
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2006 at 15:39
Originally posted by explorer6

...
Hey, it's much more complex than that.  Most of the so-called defenders of indigenous cultures from hall of maat (bs) are not Native American activists.  Many of true NAs support or are open to Van Sertima! 
 
  
 
Ignorants exist everywhere I am afraid. And we should not forget many Black Americans PRETEND they are Amerindians, and they even have formed those ridiculous Black Tribes that the U.S. goverment don't want to recognize.
 
 
Originally posted by explorer6

...
Van Sertima probably has more NA blood than Montellano or Vierra. And he does not claim Olmecs were not NA.
 
 
Van Sertima is a mulatto and a very intelligent man. He found a way to become rich exploting the credibility of Black Americans.
 
Now if he really got a drop of Native blood, what a shame for theirs ancestors. He has declared Natives need masters from overseas. A racist concept of the same kind nazis used to have.
 
Now, in the academic world is another matter. Everyone known Van Sertima is a charlatan. Period.
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2006 at 15:32
Originally posted by explorer6

...
Yup, for sure he has not read Van Sertima but relies only on "Hall of Maat" eurocentric bs critique.  He probably would not even read it free in his library because he fears reading the real truth.

Voice of the Ancestors
 
Do you want to know the "real truth"?
 
In the times of the Olmecs:
 
West Africans didn't have the means to sail to the Americas. They didn't know anything more advanced than canoes. They didn't even invented the sail.
 
 
Yes, it is pretty easy to blame the "Hall of Maat" because of "racism" against blacks.
 
 
What an irony! Van Sertima is a RACIST against Native Americans, because he is ROBBING theirs culture.
 
It is so tiresome to arguing with people that follow a religion (Afrocentrism) and that try to convince the world they are the owners of the truth.
 
For truth you need proofs, and "They came before... " is a bunch of lies. They truth is they "never came" LOL
 
And is a pitty many Black Americans preffer to believe in tales for children instead of searching for the reality.
 
 
Regards,
 
Omar
 
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by pinguin - 10-Dec-2006 at 15:33
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2006 at 13:53
If the Olmecs would have been influenced by Africans those African visitors would also have brought deseases with them. Which they clearly didn't, because Native Americans were not exposed to Old World deseases until the arrival of the Spanish after 1492. So any intensive precolumbian contact between America and the Old World is simply impossible.

The 'negroid' basalt faces are very easy to explain without the need for contact with Africans: try to make a head out of basalt with prehistoric tools only that does not look negroid. I bet that would be very difficult.

Furthermore craniology is a branch of science that has been completely debunked, so results drawn from measuring skulls are not to be taken seriously.

Finaly assuming Africans have influenced Native Americans because both built piramids is simply ridiculous. There are scores of ancient civilizations that built piramids. And the reason is very simple: if you want to build something big and tall, the best you can make with primitive tools is a piramid.
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  Quote explorer6 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2006 at 12:26
Originally posted by Mixcoatl

Originally posted by explorer6

Yup, for sure he has not read Van Sertima but relies only on "Hall of Maat" eurocentric bs critique. 

In what way is saying Olmecs were Native Americans eurocentrist?


Hey, it's much more complex than that.  Most of the so-called defenders of indigenous cultures from hall of maat (bs) are not Native American activists.  Many of true NAs support or are open to Van Sertima!  I know many of these people from different forums.  The ones like Bernard DOM who pretend to represent Native Americans are really Eurocentric who will not accept any scratch of non-Western approved theories but accept otoh all the european ones from norse explorers to aryan invaders.  Now bernard hasn't wrote squat about the kennewick man controversy that was truly on the agenda of native americans or similar issues. 

Van Sertima probably has more NA blood than Montellano or Vierra. And he does not claim Olmecs were not NA.

Here is his reply to the article:

  REPLY TO MY CRITICS
                              Ivan Van Sertima

          An attack on my thesis that Africans made contact with
          America before Columbus in two major pre-Christian
          periods (circa 1200 b.c. and circa 800 b.c.) in
          addition to the Mandingo contact period (1310/1311
          A.D.) has been circulated in advance to hundreds of
          subscribers to a journal, Current Anthropology. Copies
          of this attack by Bernard de Montellano, Warren Barbour
          and Gabriel Haslip-Viera were also sent out to
          African-American scholars, some of whom were cited in
          the attack, dishonestly titled "Van Sertima's
          Afrocentricity and the Olmecs." The title's emphasis is
          meant to suggest that all revisions of African history
          by so-called "Blacks" belong to a common school,
          radiate from a common brain, and are cast in the same
          "racialist" hue and mode. This circular, which precedes
          my new book, REPLY TO MY CRITICS (scheduled to appear
          in Sept), seeks to highlight the brazen and malicious
          lies, slanders and misrepresentations that characterize
          this attack. Let it be noted that I was invited to
          respond to this attack but was forced to withdraw. The
          editor, after verbally agreeing that I could reprint my
          commentary, after the issue of the Journal appeared,
          did a dramatic about-turn when pressed to sign a
          written agreement to back up his word. He wrote that I
          could only reprint my "commentary" (15 pages) if I also
          reprinted the attack on me (50 pages) since "they form
          a unit." To feel the full absurdity of this, just
          imagine the Jewish Defense League being forced to
          republish an extended Nazi-type attack on their
          positions in order to republish a brief response to
          such a slanderous attack.

          - LIE ONE: - "Van Sertima's expedition allegedly sailed
          or drifted westward to the Gulf of Mexico where it came
          in contact with inferior Olmecs. These individuals
          created Olmec civilization." - De Montellano, Barbour
          and Haslip-Viera.

          - THE TRUTH: As far back as 1976, I made my position on
          this matter very clear. I never said that Africans
          created or founded American civilization. I said they
          made contact and all significant contact between two
          peoples lead to influences. "I think it is necessary to
          make it clear - since partisan and ethnocentric
          scholarship seems to be the order of the day - that the
          emergence of the Negroid face, which the archeological
          and cultural data overwhelmingly confirm, in no way
          presupposes the lack of a native originality, the
          absence of other influences or the automatic eclipse of

          other faces"-p. 147 of "They Came Before Columbus." See
          also Journal of African Civilizations, Vol 8, No. 2,
          1986 "I cannot subscribe to the notion that
          civilization suddenly dropped onto the American earth
          from the Egyptian heaven."

          - LIE TWO: None of the early Egyptians and Nubians
          looked like Negroes. "They have long, narrow noses..."
          "Short, flat noses are confined to the West African
          ancestors of African-Americans." Again, "there is no
          evidence that ancient Nubians ever braided their hair.
          This style comes from colonial and modern Ethiopia."

          - THE TRUTH: Narrow noses have been found among
          millions of pure-blooded Africans. We can see this
          among the Elongated and Nilotic types. My critics know
          nothing about the variants of Africa, ancient or
          modern. All the six main variants of the African have
          been found in the Egyptian and Nubian graves. For
          examples of ancient braided Nubian hair, see Frank
          Snowden's "Before Color Prejudice," As for
          Egypto-Nubians only having narrow noses, see Egyptian
          pharaohs in Vol 10 and 12 of the JAC and major Nubian
          pharaohs in Peggy Bertram's essay (JAC, Vol.
          12)-Ushanaru, Plate 8, p 173; Taharka as the god Amun
          from Kawa Temples, Plate 9, p. 173; Shabaka, Plate 12,
          p. 176. Tanwetamani, Plate 16, p. 180. To say that
          these are narrow noses is to exhibit a colossal
          ignorance of African types in ancient Egypt and Nubia.
          The agenda behind this is to bolster their case that
          they could not have been models for any of the Olmec
          stone heads.

          - LIE THREE; Modern Egyptians look exactly as they did
          thousands of years ago. The composition of the Egyptian
          has not changed over the last 5000 years. Invasions by
          the Assyrians, Persians, Greeks, Arabs and Romans left
          them looking the same today as in the dawn of history.

          - THE TRUTH: This is a hasty misreading of the work of
          scholars like A.C. Berry, R. J. Berry and Ucko who
          point out that there is a remarkable degree of
          homogeneity in this area for 5000 years. What a
          superficial reading of this fails to note is that the
          period ends with the close of the native dynasties
          BEFORE the invasions of the Assyrian, Persian, Greek,
          Roman and Arab foreigners

          - LIE FOUR: Faced with the startingly Negroid features
          of some of the Olmec stone heads, my critics try 4 ways
          out: (a) They are "spitting images of the native;" (b)
          they appear dark because some of them were carved out
          of dark volcanic stone; (c) some were made of white
          basalt which turned dark over time; (d) ancient
          Egyptians and Nubians were remote in physiognomy from
          sub-Saharan Negroes and none of them could have been
          models for any of the "Negro-looking" heads. Having

          said all that, they then claim that "races are not
          linked to specific physiognomic traits."

          - THE TRUTH: No need to shoot them down on this. They
          turned the gun on themselves.

          - LIE FIVE: Nothing African has been found in any
          archeological excavation in the New World.

          - THE TRUTH: In the drier centers of the Olmec world -
          at Tlatilco, Cerro de las Mesas and Monte Alban - the
          Polish craniologist, Andrez Wiercinski, found
          indisputable evidence of an African presence. The many
          traits analyzed in these Olmec sites indicated
          individuals with Negroid traits predominating but with
          an admixture of other racial traits. This is what I
          have said. The work of A. Vargas Guadarrama is an
          important reinforcement of Wiercinski's study. He found
          that the skulls he examined at Tlatilco, which
          Wiercinski had classified as Negroid, were "radically
          different" from other skulls on the site, bearing
          indisputable similarities to skulls in West Africa and
          Egypt.

          - LIE SIX: Van Sertima presents no evidence that a New
          World cotton (gossypium hirsutum var. punctatum) was
          transferred from Guinea to the Cape Verde in 1462 by
          the Portuguese and there is no hard proof that West
          Africans made a round trip to America before Columbus.

          -THE TRUTH: I cited evidence in 12 categories to
          establish Mandingo voyages to the New World circa
          1310/1311 A.D. This included eyewitness reports from
          nearly a dozen Europeans, even Columbus himself,
          metallurgical, linguistic, botanical, navigational,
          oceanographic, skeletal, epigraphic, cartographic,
          oral, documented and iconographic evidence. With regard
          to New World cotton in Africa before 1462, Stephens
          spoke in two tongues to pacify isolationist colleagues.

          - LIE SEVEN: My critics claim that I said the bottle
          gourd came in with Old World voyagers.

          - THE TRUTH: I was at pains to point out that this is
          ONE PLANT THAT COULD DRIFT TO AMERICA WITHOUT THE LOSS
          OF SEED VIABILITY. "Bottle gourds got caught in the
          pull of currents from the African coast and drifted to
          America across the Atlantic. Thomas Whitaker and G.F.
          Carter showed that these gourds are capable of floating
          in seawater for 7 months without loss of seed
          viability" - "They Came Before Columbus," 204. They
          indulge in an even more vicious dishonesty with regard
          to cotton, claiming that I said "Old World cottons came
          into America with a fleet of Nubians circa 700 B.C." I
          never linked cotton transfer to Nubian contact.

          - LIE EIGHT: My critics admit "we cannot unequivocally
          date the heads" but they single out one which they say
          Ann Cyphers confidently dated about 1011 B.C. Note the
          date! This is 200 years AFTER the Egyptian contact

          period c. 1200 B.C. Yet they claim that the dating of
          this one head proves "Negro-looking heads" were being
          carved, mutilated, and buried prior to 1200 B.C.

          - THE TRUTH: The stone heads could not have been buried
          before they were carved.

          - LIE NINE: Egyptians stopped building pyramids
          "thousands of years" before 1200 B.C. No relationship
          whatever exists between Old World/New World pyramids.

          - THE TRUTH: Enormous obelisks, calling for the same
          complex engineering skills of the pyramid age were
          built at Karnak as late as 1295 B.C. A pyramid was also
          built as Dashur circa 1700 B.C. Bart Jordan, the
          mathematical child prodigy, to whom Einstein granted
          special audience, established startling coincidences
          between Old World and New World pyramids. He agrees
          with me that "The overwhelming incidence of coincidence
          argues overwhelmingly against a mere coincidence."

          - LIE TEN: My critics claim that I have trampled upon
          the self-respect and self-esteem of native Americans
          and they have come forward to champion their cause.

          - THE TRUTH: My people (for I am part Macusi and part
          African) would be horrified to have, as champions of
          our cause, De Montellano, Barbour, and Haslip-Viera,
          who disgrace us with the charge that "native Americans
          would have sacrificed and eaten the Africans if they
          came."


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