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Turkish Professor: Muslims Discovered Ame

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Topic: Turkish Professor: Muslims Discovered Ame
Posted By: Behi
Subject: Turkish Professor: Muslims Discovered Ame
Date Posted: 10-Feb-2006 at 12:01
Turkish Professor: Muslims Discovered America!

Presenting some documents, founder of the Institute for History of Arabic-Islamic Science argued that Turkish Muslims discovered America before others.

Tehran, 9 February 2006, (CHN) -- In his commemoration ceremony which was held at the Association of Written Heritage office in Tehran this week, Professor Fuat Sezgin, founder and chairman of the Institute for the History of Arabic-Islamic Science, presented some documents regarding the discovery of America by the Turkish Muslims.

Presenting a map which he called “Piri Reis”, the 82 year old Turkish Islamic scholar said, “There is a map belonging to the 16th Century AD showing the journey of the first people who discovered America which the Chinese and Portuguese claim to be theirs, while due to some reasoning, this map does not belong to them. It was Piri Reis, a Turkish Muslim admiral who noticed for the first time the existence of a region in the west of Africa which was later called America.”

Some foreign and domestic scholars in historical and Islamic sciences attended the meeting which was held to honor Sezgin’s different and abundant researches in the fields of Islamic sciences and the history of sciences.

Praising the Turkish scholar’s worldwide contributions, Akbar Irani, managing director of Association of Written Heritage said, “One of the most important accomplishments of Professor Sezgin is printing over 80 volumes of significant and old Islamic texts which have played key roles in bringing to the surface the glory of Islamic sciences all around the world.”

Sezgin was born in Turkey in 1924 and graduated from the University of Istanbul in Islamic Sciences & Iranian Studies in 1954.

In the year 1956 he set off for Germany where he founded the Institute for the History of Arabic-Islamic Science, affiliated with the University of Frankfurt. Fuat Sezgin has published about 750 books by now.

http://www.chn.ir/en/news/?section=1&id=1543 - http://www.chn.ir/en/news/?section=1&id=1543


My Gift to our dear Turkish Forumers



Replies:
Posted By: Ponce de Leon
Date Posted: 10-Feb-2006 at 12:05
First we get Europeans saying they discovered it, then CHINESE, now the freakin Turks discovered it???

Hello!?!?!?! the native americans were there first. It was not really discovered, because there were people already living there!!!!



Posted By: Byzantine Emperor
Date Posted: 10-Feb-2006 at 12:08

What, does this guy think he has discovered something new in the Piri Reis map?  There is a good deal of scholarly literature covering the map and its possibilities, but I have never heard it put forward that what Reis thought was Africa was actually the Americas!

One of my side interests is Ottoman perceptions of the New World.  As far as I can tell from what I have studied, there were not many Ottomans (or Muslims, for that matter) who came to the New World in the early period of discoveries, 15th-17th centuries.  I really don't think there were any official Ottoman expeditions to the New World; they concentrated mostly on Eastern Africa and the Indian Ocean for their explorations.

Of the primary source accounts that we have, in which Ottomans discuss the New World, most are copies and borrowings from European accounts.  However, I am always open to finding new mentionings, and according to scholars, there are some original first-hand accounts of the New World written by Ottomans.



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http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=12713 - Late Byzantine Military
http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=17337 - Ottoman perceptions of the Americas


Posted By: Decebal
Date Posted: 10-Feb-2006 at 12:08

Please, this is nationalist hogwash. It is a well known fact that the Piri Reis map was made using Portuguese and Spanish maps. It was simply a copy of European knowledge. There is no proof whatsoever that any muslim ships reached America before 1492. The only people for which there is evidence that they got to America during the last few thousand years before Columbus are the Norsemen ("Vikings").

The true "discoverers" of the Americas are the native people anyway.



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What is history but a fable agreed upon?
Napoleon Bonaparte

Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth.- Mohandas Gandhi



Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 10-Feb-2006 at 12:17
What a waste of time: Piri Reis map is well known, it is as commented a 16th century map and it is known to have been reconstructed out from other maps, that the famous Turk admiral captured to Christian vessels most likely.

The map depicts the coasts of South America (particularly Brazil) and the Caribbean without a clear concordance. For 1513, the date normally attributed to the Piris Reis map, the Spaniards (Colombus and others) had throughty explored the Caribean Sea and Amergo Vespucci had doen the same with Brazil for the Portuguese crown. It is precisely the works of these explorers and nothing else what is in Piri Reis map, which is no doubt an excellent work of military inteligence.

In fact the map seems to depict very exactly what Colombus and Vespucci had discovered - and nothing else




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NO GOD, NO MASTER!


Posted By: ulrich von hutten
Date Posted: 10-Feb-2006 at 12:46
Originally posted by Decebal

Please, this is nationalist hogwash.   The only people for which there is evidence that they got to America during the last few thousand years before Columbus are the Norsemen ("Vikings").

The true "discoverers" of the Americas are the native people anyway.


I'm not very neutral in this point , and if  someone wants  , i will write down the story of life eriksson ,who travelled with his men and women from europe to america and made first contact with the native americans.not very enjoyable for them (the vikings) !!!
so please , read books from thor heyerdahl or something else but don't listen to this rubbish.



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http://imageshack.us">


Posted By: Komnenos
Date Posted: 10-Feb-2006 at 13:28
I hereby proudly claim that the German people did not undertake the first European exploration (or discovery) of the American continent, did not participate in its initial colonialisation and therefore not be held responsible for any subsequent events.

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[IMG]http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i137/komnenos/crosses1.jpg">


Posted By: Jay.
Date Posted: 10-Feb-2006 at 13:49
This is as stupid as it sounds.

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Samo Sloga Srbina Spasava
Only Unity Can Save the Serb


Posted By: Exarchus
Date Posted: 10-Feb-2006 at 13:59
Plato discovered America, he called it: Atlantis.

Well, actually, it was a prophetic view, soon the USA will be crushed by a giant asteroid falling from the sky in the supervolcano of yellowstone.


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Vae victis!


Posted By: Maziar
Date Posted: 10-Feb-2006 at 14:03
I claim Iranians discovered Amerika first

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Posted By: Spartakus
Date Posted: 10-Feb-2006 at 14:20


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"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)


Posted By: The Hidden Face
Date Posted: 10-Feb-2006 at 14:30
This is an anti-Turkish propaganda.  We do know from Piri Reis's memoirs that he had never been to America, and his well-known map is a copy of spanish-Portuguese maps!! 

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Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 10-Feb-2006 at 14:52
Na I think it is just trumpeting Islamo chauvinism.

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Posted By: Lmprs
Date Posted: 10-Feb-2006 at 15:05
Originally posted by Ponce de Leon

First we get Europeans saying they discovered it, then CHINESE, now the freakin Turks discovered it???

Hello!?!?!?! the native americans were there first. It was not really discovered, because there were people already living there!!!!


I agree.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 10-Feb-2006 at 17:44
Originally posted by Komnenos

I hereby proudly claim that the German people did not undertake the first European exploration (or discovery) of the American continent, did not participate in its initial colonialisation and therefore not be held responsible for any subsequent events.

wrong:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Didrik_Pining - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Didrik_Pining


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Posted By: Ikki
Date Posted: 10-Feb-2006 at 18:08


Of course, we are chinoportuguese, put a Madeira's wine and a Panda in the shield of the spanish flag, and you will see the new spanish flag.


the meeting which was held to honor Sezgin’s different and abundant researches in the fields of Islamic sciences and the history of sciences.
...

where he founded the Institute for the History of Arabic-Islamic Science, affiliated with the University of Frankfurt
...
Fuat Sezgin has published about 750 books by now.


If this is true, i recommend revise his works, don't lost the money in his books, and send a letter to the Frankfurt University advasing their that this man is mad.

The nationalism...


Posted By: demon
Date Posted: 11-Feb-2006 at 00:19

I've read books about how Phonecians circumnavigated Africa and reached America... all sorts of possible stories.  I had a look on that map on some book I've encountered in a library, and it showed a bare coutour of Brazil and the Carribean, as well as what the book labeled "unfrozen Antarctica."  Fascinating stuff indeed.

First we get Europeans saying they discovered it, then CHINESE, now the freakin Turks discovered it???

Hello!?!?!?! the native americans were there first. It was not really discovered, because there were people already living there!!!! 

Hello?!?!?!  You were supposed to have discovered the "Pacific Ocean," and named it "pacific!"  You shouldn't be complainng! 



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Grrr..


Posted By: Loknar
Date Posted: 11-Feb-2006 at 00:28

The Vikings actually discovered it. The Chinese and Turks certainly did not.

The 'natives' simply walked there across Siberia so they also could be said to have discovered it.

Actually, the 'natives' may have killed off an original people (kennewickman)



Posted By: ulrich von hutten
Date Posted: 11-Feb-2006 at 01:51
Originally posted by Mixcoatl


wrong:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Didrik_Pining - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Didrik_Pining

here wikipedia is wrong again. not didrich pining discovered america, but thorleif eriksson did!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
yeah , i think some  lessons in history would be good for some fellows.


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http://imageshack.us">


Posted By: Abyssmal Fiend
Date Posted: 11-Feb-2006 at 02:52
They did? I find that rather ironic, because we have evidence of Nordic settlements in North America around 1000 AD. Whereas this 'news' would place the Muslim Turks at around 1500 AD. Funny, but, last I checked, he's wrong.

There's a difference between 'discovery' and 'useful discovery.' Finding out that orange and red are two different colors doesn't do much good in unto itself. When you start combining that knowledge with other things, like incorporating both orange and red into new designs or colors, you really get rolling.


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Di! Ecce hora! Uxor mea me necabit!


Posted By: ulrich von hutten
Date Posted: 11-Feb-2006 at 03:58

i don't think there were some turkish guys on board ,but impossible is nothing.


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http://imageshack.us">


Posted By: Komnenos
Date Posted: 11-Feb-2006 at 04:02
Originally posted by Mixcoatl

Originally posted by Komnenos

I hereby proudly claim that the German people did not
undertake the first European exploration (or discovery) of the American
continent, did not participate in its initial colonialisation and
therefore not be held responsible for any subsequent events.

wrong:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Didrik_Pining - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Didrik_Pining



I never heard of this story, but it is quite obviously nothing more than a nasty rumour.
The Germans are innocent.

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[IMG]http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i137/komnenos/crosses1.jpg">


Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 11-Feb-2006 at 22:00
Piri Reis mentions St. Brendan on his map, clearly this proves the Irish got there first.

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Arrrgh!!"


Posted By: Thracian
Date Posted: 12-Feb-2006 at 02:19

This is ridiculous; the sequence of events, conserning discoveries, are:

15000 years ago - Asiatic peoples move into the Americas through the Bering Strait (next to Alaska)

1000ad - the Vikings get to North America

and ofcourse 1492 with Columbous.

All of these have rather simple, and logical explanations.



Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 12-Feb-2006 at 03:14
When I opened this thread I thought is was going to talk about the moroccons or at least Mali, or the andalucean jews showing columbus the way. Or the top Chinese Admiral in the 1421 fleet who was a muslim. I didn't think turkey.

I can say one thing with confidence. Lots of people have been to america. Columbus wasn't the first. Ericsson wasn't the first, the chinese weren't the first, the morroccans weren't the first. If someone told me that the great sengalise empire of 6000BC was trading with the americans, I wouldn't even blink an eyelid.
Come on guys, build a ship, add sails, get blown to the west Indies.


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Posted By: Degredado
Date Posted: 12-Feb-2006 at 12:38

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

When I opened this thread I thought is was going to talk about the moroccons or at least Mali, or the andalucean jews showing columbus the way. Or the top Chinese Admiral in the 1421 fleet who was a muslim. I didn't think turkey.

Any stories of Morroccans or Malians have not been proven (even though I know no such stories). And andalusian Jews are not Muslim. Besides, those involved were Portuguese Jews. The Chinese admiral sailed in charted seas and any evidence that he sailed to America is so far, shaky.



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Vou votar nas putas. Estou farto de votar nos filhos delas


Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 13-Feb-2006 at 00:06
Andalusian Jews, Portuguese Jews same difference. I usually say Portugese when I'm talking about Christians, after the reconquista, and andalusian when I'm talking about muslims or jews in iberia. Besides andal is just vandal, with an accent.

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Posted By: ramin
Date Posted: 13-Feb-2006 at 02:03
Originally posted by Ponce de Leon

First we get Europeans saying they discovered it, then CHINESE, now the freakin Turks discovered it???

Hello!?!?!?! the native americans were there first. It was not really discovered, because there were people already living there!!!!

well it's much better to call today's Americans "the discoverers" rathern than "the invaders", don't u agree?


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"I won't laugh if a philosophy halves the moon"


Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 13-Feb-2006 at 07:04
Originally posted by Cywr

Piri Reis mentions St. Brendan on his map, clearly this proves the Irish got there first.


He says that he was living on a whale... just like the Irish myth...

What does that prove?


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NO GOD, NO MASTER!


Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 15-Feb-2006 at 05:41

Personally I discovered America in 1969.

Everything else is hearsay.



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Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 15-Feb-2006 at 09:35
Originally posted by Maju

Originally posted by Cywr

Piri Reis mentions St. Brendan on his map, clearly this proves the Irish got there first.


He says that he was living on a whale... just like the Irish myth...

What does that prove?


Bah, the so-called whale was clearly a submarine!


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Arrrgh!!"


Posted By: Nart_Saga
Date Posted: 16-Feb-2006 at 15:32
Originally posted by Loknar

The Vikings actually discovered it. The Chinese and Turks certainly did not.

The 'natives' simply walked there across Siberia so they also could be said to have discovered it.

Actually, the 'natives' may have killed off an original people (kennewickman)

 

I disagree (starts researching) , 

 --sounds silly...--  

 

excluding Native Americans Viking were there first.

 I wonder if they commit any genocide against Natives but on the other hand I think Natives probably kicked their butt if they even tried it!



Posted By: Nart_Saga
Date Posted: 16-Feb-2006 at 15:38

Okay here is a rumor: Ancient Egyptians had contacts with Native Americans...

I actually had seen a tv program was quite intresting:

Firstly the pyramids but more convincingly it was discovered that egyptians used tabacco when making mummies... but it goes on and on in the end there were native Americans there and even before that there were actually these weird guys made of single cell were there in the first place.



Posted By: Iranian41ife
Date Posted: 16-Feb-2006 at 15:54

it doesnt matter what the turks say, what the chinese say, or what the portugese say!

as long as we are talking about america being discovered by the east (europe, asia, etc... excluding the native americans), it was the vikings that first discovered it!

i dont even know why we still give the credit to columbus.



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"If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War


Posted By: Nart_Saga
Date Posted: 16-Feb-2006 at 15:59
Originally posted by prsn41ife

i dont even know why we still give the credit to columbus.

 

Because he was Jewish?



Posted By: Styrbiorn
Date Posted: 16-Feb-2006 at 17:57
Originally posted by Nart_Saga


Because he was Jewish?



yea..... OR because his discovery brought changes on a gigantic scale.





BTW, though Columbus wasn't a Jew, one of his translators was. *historical tidbit of the day*


Posted By: Maziar
Date Posted: 16-Feb-2006 at 18:06

A question:

had the ancient natives of America discovered the rest of the world? had they known at least Africa, or had they never left their continent? I have read somewhere they may brought some Africans to their Continent.



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Posted By: Ikki
Date Posted: 16-Feb-2006 at 19:47
Originally posted by prsn41ife

 

i dont even know why we still give the credit to columbus.

Because he went thinking about rich kingdoms and then return and say to the world, guys there across the sea there are land!!! And then many others went across the sea to see those lands.

As you see, the vikings was not very talkative



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 16-Feb-2006 at 21:27
your right america was never dicsovered, the indians were already here

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Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 16-Feb-2006 at 23:36
I claim Armenians were the first to discover America, even though they were landlocked...


Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 18-Feb-2006 at 05:56
Originally posted by Darth Vader (DIEGO)

your right america was never dicsovered, the indians were already here


Wouldn't the native Americans have had to discover it? Afterall the contient seperated from the other continents long before humans even existed.


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Arrrgh!!"


Posted By: Iranian41ife
Date Posted: 18-Feb-2006 at 15:19

guys, when poeple say discovered, they mean by the east... we all know that native americans were already there, so can we stop bringing up this native american stuff and continue with this discussion.

well, there is a movemen now to stop glorifying columbus in the US because he was the factor for the extermination of native americans (he was actually the first to start it).  

guess who has the most statue in the USA... yup its columbus.



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"If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War


Posted By: Maharbbal
Date Posted: 09-Mar-2006 at 20:55
Hi,
Can I propose a topic? A complete chronology of who claim (and why) to
have discovered America first? Here is a first list:
1500: Amerigo Vespucci
1492: Cristofo Colombo
??????: Piri Reis
1480's: the Portugeses
1450's: French fishermen
1421: the Chineses (theory created when China is becoming a
superpower...)
1392: Genoeses
1000: the Vikings
??????: Africans
700: the Irishs
600: the Japoneses
400 BC: the Tyrians
500 BC: the Greeks
3000BC the Egyptians
10.000 BC: the Native Americans
Before? Some theories are mentionning caucasians who were there before
and who had been killed or assimilated by the "natives".
And what about the other sense Americans "discovering" Europe or
Polynesia???
Bye

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I am a free donkey!


Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 09-Mar-2006 at 21:42
I definitlely think its the Caucasians, you know..Noah's predcessors

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Posted By: Celestial
Date Posted: 03-Nov-2006 at 20:33
and now Turks. Is it the Chinese or the Vikings or the Spanish or the Italians or the whatever is next?


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 03-Nov-2006 at 21:19

The ancestors of today's Ameridians discovered the Americas over 12.000 years ago. Amerindians are human beings and they deserve the credit.

Now, for the pseudo-science of pseudo-discoverers of the Americas, the list is long:
 
(1) The atlanteans
(2) The "lost tribe of Israel".
(3) Some Irish monk.
(4) The Chineses
(5) The Japaneses
(6) The Polynesians
(7) The Asian Indians
(8) The Romans
(9) The Egyptians
(10) The Phoenicians
 
Who I am missing? .... Ah, the Africans of course! They arrive to the Americas to teach the Olmecs... Well, the Nation of Islam believe so, therefore must be true... I guess LOL
 
Sorry, fellows, but these silly tales have been going around for too long. The facts are clear.
 
(1) Native Americans discovered the Americas 12.000 years ago at the very least.
 
(2) The Inuits arrived to the Americas a couple of thousands of years ago from Siberia, they populated the artic and then they went into Greenland and probable beyond. So the second place is for Inuits.
 
(3) The Norse made a casual contact with the Americas after they colonized Greenland circa 1000 A.C.. They didn't realize that discovery was important and nobody else knew about it.
 
(4) Columbus, working for the Spanish crown, discovered the Americas for Europe. That means, he was the guy that started globalization. And also he was the guy that started the invasion and destruction of the Americas.
 
Everything else is daydreamming. Pseudo-historical revisionism that does not match the historical, archaeological and genetical knowledge.
 
Columbus, for instance, is considered by many as the more important figure of Western history after Jesus. And no matter how much some people want to downplay him, his figure always reapears. Because he did something unique: he went directly into the unknown, he design a project to reach China going to the West! Something unique in a time sailors usually followed the coastal lines. Following his project he was able to break the chains of the sea - like the prophecy of the New World of Seneca said (Medea, Chorus of the second act).
 
For people that insist in pseudo-science, please take a look at this article. Perhaps you won't insist after reading it.
 
Goodbye Columbus? The Pseudohistory of Who Discovered America
by Ronald Fritze
 
http://www.hallofmaat.com/modules.php?name=Articles&file=article&sid=74 - http://www.hallofmaat.com/modules.php?name=Articles&file=article&sid=74
 
Pinguin
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


Posted By: rishubhav
Date Posted: 03-Nov-2006 at 22:37
Personally I find it somewhat preposterous that there was not some contact between the Polynesians who made it all the way to Easter Island and Southern Americans. I think that an Incans king actually made it to Polynesia: - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupac_Inca_Yupanqui


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 03-Nov-2006 at 22:53

No. They didn't. As I know that? Because the neighbours of the North are Peruvians and Easter Island, who is the closest polynesian Island to the Americas, is Chilean.

There is no evidence of arrival of Polynesians to South America, but only speculations. Is not that it could happened, because the Polynesians were the best sailors worldwide before Columbus, but it is just there is no evidence at all of contact. And Polynesians had good memory, because they recalled the first landing in the Island with lots of detail, more than one thousand years after it happened. But they don't remember to reach the Americas at all! No genetical evidence has been found either.
 
Think about it. Polynesians always carried things like the tree of bread, and pigs! Why there were not pigs in the Americas at the time of contact? Unfortunatelly for hypperdifusionism, there is no evidence of such wonderful contacts at all.
 
Now, there is a legend that Tupac Yupanqui travelled with a fleet of rafts of balsa wood, like the Kon-Tiki of Heyerdhal, to some far away kingdom in the Pacific. Actually, the source is Thor Heyerdhal himself (an hyperdifussionist, anyways). However, there is no evidence of arrival of Peruvians to Easter Island or any other island of the Pacific. But there is archaeological evidency of visits to Galapagoes by the Incas, so perhaps that's the misterious place after all.
 
As far as I know, those "so common" transoceanic contacts, that many people love, belong more to the kingdoms of dreams and legends rather than to reality.
 
By the way, Easter Island is very far away from the Americas, so the crossing is not a piece of cake at all.
 
Pinguin
 


Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 00:25
Actually, it is better to allow some space to this claim, becuase if we don't, very soon a new theory would come saying that the people who crossed over to America from Eurasia were Proto or Quasi turkic nomads.

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PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn


Posted By: konstantinius
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 06:41
Originally posted by The Hidden Face

This is an anti-Turkish propaganda.  We do know from Piri Reis's memoirs that he had never been to America, and his well-known map is a copy of spanish-Portuguese maps!! 


Why is this anti-Turkish propaganda? Because there is ONE thing in the world Turks might' ve had nothing to do with? Stop flattering yourself by thinking that you're God's gift to the human race. We're all equally strong in Her eyes.


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" I do disagree with what you say but I'll defend to my death your right to do so."


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 08:35
Anti-Turkish?
 
I am afraid all those funny (but false) claims about pre-columbian contacts are just RACISM against AMERINDIANS.
 
Foreigners see the wonderful architecture and heritage of the Mayans, Aztecs, Moche, Incas, Anazasis and dozens of other civilizations and they think:
 
"Gee! What wonderful cultures. But who made them? Amerindians couldn't make them because they were so primitive and stupid people. If so, someone had to help them"
 
That's is racism of the worst kind. And Amerindians don't deserve that.
 
The world wouldn't be what is today without theirs contributions (potato, tomatos, corn, agave, rubber, sirynges, tobacco, quinina, snow rackets, parkas, and thousands more). Remember that the next time you drink a Vodka or eat Asian Indian food, because they are made with American and not European or Asian plants!
 
 It is time the world start to recognize the achievements of the American Indians. Of all the people of the world, the Amerindian heritage is the most ignored.
 
Hyperdifussionism IS RACISM!
 
 
Pinguin
 


Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 09:23
No moderator has any problem with this stuff?  Plenty of members have been banned or warned for a lot less.

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"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.


Posted By: Krum
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 10:35
Muslims discovered america!!!!

What is next?Muslims reached the moon first or Jesus Christ was a turk.

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It is only the dead who have seen the end of war.
Plato


Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 10:56
Muslims didn't but Turks do have a point, their ancestors did migrate across the Berring Strait's so in some distant, distant, distant way their paps did discover America Tongue That is ofcourse unless the Polynesian sailers got there first.

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      “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.”
Albert Pine



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 11:06

Good point!

The people that discovered and populated the ancient Americans were of the Mongolian-Siberian stock. Therefore, they have some relation with peoples of Central Asia, including the ancestors of ancient Turks.
 
Pinguin
 
 


Posted By: Turk Nomad
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 11:11
True,ancestors of Turks found it first,todays's native americans.We call them Melungeons.


Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 12:40
Melungeons arrived much later.
 
We were referring to the initial population of the America's.
 
Pinguin didn't Polynesian sailers also sail to the America's from the South Pacific islands?


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      “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.”
Albert Pine



Posted By: Neoptolemos
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 14:40
Originally posted by Turk Nomad

True,ancestors of Turks found it first,todays's native americans.We call them Melungeons.

That is to say, Native Americans and Turks are kind of cousins, right?
Also, who were those "ancestors of Turks"? Were they proto-Turks, pre-Turks, Turks or what?


@konstantinius: you misunderstood what The Hidden Face wrote and you're being unfair with him


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Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 14:44
stupid topic.


Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 15:11
Neo
That is to say, Native Americans and Turks are kind of cousins, right?

 
You could say distant cousins, a more correct term would be having the same ancestors.
 
Now obviously as humans we all if we go back far enough have the same ancestors.
 
What I mean by ancestory in this context is at a later date when a very early form of Turkic/Altaic culture had been developed.
 
Its clear that there was a migration across the Berring straits, there are also linguistic, religous and cultural connections especially between Tengrist Turkic populations and Native American.


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      “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.”
Albert Pine



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 15:30
Originally posted by Bulldog

... 
Pinguin didn't Polynesian sailers also sail to the America's from the South Pacific islands?
 
No. They didn't reach the Americas! That is just an hyphotesis which has lost streght with the recent genetical studies.
 
Pinguin


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 15:37
Originally posted by Neoptolemos

That is to say, Native Americans and Turks are kind of cousins, right?
 
In certain sense. But that is not very strange in the western part of Eurasia. Genetical studies has shown mongolian (East Asian) admixture in peoples like Russians, Germans and even Portugueses. I don't recall the numbers but around the 1% of the genetic pool of Europe is Asian. The same kind of mixtures happened around Asia as well.
 
Native Americans are close relatives of Mongols and East Siberians. And as you know Mongolian peoples where everywhere, from China to Central Europe, including India and the Middle East. As far as I know, ancient Turks where another Central Asian peoples that, certainly, had some East Asian genetics on them.
 
Pinguin
 
 
 
 


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 15:39
Originally posted by Bulldog

What I mean by ancestory in this context is at a later date when a very early form of Turkic/Altaic culture had been developed.
 
Its clear that there was a migration across the Berring straits, there are also linguistic, religous and cultural connections especially between Tengrist Turkic populations and Native American.
 
Do you got more information about it?
 
I have been searching into with cultural heritage Native Americans had from the Old World from the beginning. Perhaps you got some clues in there.
 
Pinguin


Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 18:00
Originally posted by Turk Nomad

True,ancestors of Turks found it first,todays's native americans.We call them Melungeons.
 
 
 
Your close, Melungeon genealogy discloses more than just turk influence, some families do and some don't.  My paternal grandmothers family is Melungeon, I have markers for turk lineage, as well as others.  I thought this might be interesting first off, I'll follow with more directly on Melungeon lines.
 
Taken from the site Native American Geneaology
 

The Mixed Peoples

The Redbones are one of a group of people of unknow mixed ancestry who lived in the Southeastern United States. The best known and researched of these groups are the Melungeons who lived in western Virginia and eastern Tennessee. Other similar groups include the Brass Ankles and Turks of South Carolina, the Brown People of Kentucky, the Carmel Indians of Ohio, and Guineas of West Virginia. The Redbones, sometimes called the "Louisiana Melungeions," originated in South Carolina and established the Redbone identity in Southwest Louisiana.

A recent book entitled "The Farfarers" by Farley Mowatt tells of a present-day people in Newfoundland called Jakatars having a history reminiscent of the Melungeons and Redbones of the Southeast United States. Mowatt cites interesting but controversial archaelogical and historical records that indicate that a people he calls Albans traveled as far a Newfoundland before the Vikings. They originally settled Scotland before the Celts arrived and drove them out. The Vikings then drove them west to Iceland, Greenland and then mainland North America. He says they were small, dark-skinned, dark-haired people who were much in appearance like the present day Kurds or Basques. He thinks that the Jakatars, who were discovered by the British when they arrived in Newfoundland, are their descendants. He speculates that the term "Jakatars" derives from a Basque word "Jakue" meaning "God" and "tar" meaining "related to". So he thinks it was a way of describing early Christians in North America.

A former member of AE, maju, is Basque and his genetic studies showed that Basque influence in early NA was highly likely.
 
 


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"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.


Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 18:54
This a link to a site that has some interesting historical info relating to Turkish and Islamic presence in Pre columbian America-
 
 
http://www.cyberistan.org/islamic/mamerica.html - http://www.cyberistan.org/islamic/mamerica.html
 
 
 
Also, a photo of the Goins family ca. 1920. Goins is one of the original surnames that is Melungeon.
 
 


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"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.


Posted By: mard
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 20:08
i know christopher columbus went to Granada before he left to discover the new world, Moors at the time definalty had very sophisticated maps and ships.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 21:14
Originally posted by red clay

This a link to a site that has some interesting historical info relating to Turkish and Islamic presence in Pre columbian America-
  
http://www.cyberistan.org/islamic/mamerica.html - http://www.cyberistan.org/islamic/mamerica.html
 
 
 
Jesus!
 
PSEUDO-HISTORY ONCE AGAIN AngryAngryAngry
 
Dr. Youssef Mroueh
 
Another lunatic! After months of fighting against those Afrocentric loonies like "Dr. Clyde Winters" now I found a Muslim version of Afrocentrism.
 
All these claims are just RACISM against Amerindians!
 
I don't know why all these hyperdifussionist lonies call themselves "Doctors".
 
 
Please. I encourage to read the following paper, and stop to make the ridiculous with those pretentious claims bases in tales for children.
 
READ! That's good for curing the lack of knowledge!
 
Pinguin
 
Goodbye Columbus? The Pseudohistory of Who Discovered America
 
by Ronald Fritze
http://www.skeptic.com/ - Skeptic Vol. 2, No 4, 1994, pp 88-97
 
Who discovered America? It seems like an innocuous question. We all know that Columbus "discovered" America, in the sense that Europeans first heard about a New World through him. And we all also know that the Indians were here first, and thus they "discovered" America before anyone, if one considers migrating peoples discoverers.

A 1992 CNN poll, however, revealed that only 20% of Americans thought that Columbus was the first to discover America. An overwhelming majority of the respondents (70%) thought that other people had preceded Columbus in reaching the Americas, while 10% did not know. The problem is that a question which simply asks - who first discovered America? - is badly posed. Among that 70% of people who deny Columbus's priority in the discovery of the Americas are undoubtedly many people who possess a sophisticated understanding of the pre-Columbian history of the Americas. They are right. Columbus was not first. The prehistoric hunters who were the ancestors of the Native Americans and crossed the Bering Landbridge some 15,000 years ago were the true discoverers of the Americas. Furthermore, Leif Ericsson and other Norse seafarers reached the Americas in the decades after 1000 CE (Common Era). The testimony of the Norse sagas has been confirmed by the discovery of a genuine Norse archaeological site at L'Anse aux Meadows on Newfoundland which may have even been Leif Ericsson's own camp.

Unfortunately many other people who deny the priority of Columbus are not thinking of either the prehistoric wanders who crossed the Bering Landbridge or Leif Ericsson. Instead, they credit the first discovery of the Americas to various peoples from the ancient and medieval eras, including: Egyptians, Phoenicians, Africans, Trojans, Carthaginians, Romans, Arabs, Irish, Welsh, Germans, Poles, and various groups of Jews such as the wandering Hebrews, one or more of the Ten Lost Tribes, and refugees from the Bar Kokhba revolt. All of these people have been proposed as having crossed the Atlantic Ocean well before 1492. On the other side of the world various Chinese, Japanese, Hindu, Polynesian, and Mongol explorers, and travellers along with a lost fleet of Alexander the Great, all supposedly crossed the Pacific and found the Americas prior to Columbus.

Numerous books and articles have been published which advocate one or more of these dubious theories of pre-Columbian contacts between the Old World and the Americas. In 1990 the Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies published Pre-Columbian Contact with the Americas Across the Oceans: An Annotated Bibliography, edited by John L. Sorenson and Martin Raish. This massive two volume work lists 5,613 items and is not exhaustive. New works are being published all the time. Sadly, the vast majority of these works are poor pieces of scholarship in which the same errors of method and fact keep appearing again and again, year after year. It is a situation that professional anthropologists, archaeologists, and historians all find to be quite discouraging. Furthermore, these professional scholars often find their own writings and opinions rejected and disdained by these advocates of various pseudohistories of the pre-Columbian Americas. The distinguished anthropologist Robert Wauchope described the situation as follows:

Lay writers on these subjects [pre-Columbian contacts] have one great bias in common: they all scorn, ridicule, and complain bitterly about the professional anthropologists of American museums and universities, whom they regard variously as stupid, stubborn, hopelessly conservative, and very frequently plain dishonest.

It is a claim all too familiar to skeptics, who are frequently told by pseudoscientists that those who oppose them are ignorant or fraudulent. At the same time, these very same people profess to be following the strictest scholarly standards in their own work. That claim is not true. The following is a survey of the types of errors committed by the adherents of various pre-Columbian contact theories. While it covers most of the main ones, it is by no means comprehensive, let alone exhaustive. (See my newly published book Legend and Lore of the Americas before 1492, Santa Barbara: ABC-Clio, 1993.)

Diffusionism Made Simple

1. Diffusionism and Hyper-Diffusionism. Diffusionism is an anthropological concept that seeks to explain cultural change on the basis of unilateral or reciprocal borrowing between different cultural groups that occurs as a result of trade, migration, or conquest. All theories that explain the rise of higher civilizations and their various cultural traits primarily on the basis of supposed contacts with the Old World are inherently diffusionist.

Anthropologists universally accept the phenomenon of diffusion as a partial explanation for cultural change. Some advocates of diffusionism, however, have been extreme in their claims about the extent of cultural exchanges between different societies. As a result they have been labeled hyper-diffusionists. Hyper-diffusionists deny that parallel evolution or independent invention of tools or ideas took place to any great extent at all throughout prehistory. They claim that humans were remarkably uninventive and that history never repeats itself During the early 20th century, the British anthropologist W. J. Perry and the anatomist Grafton Elliot Smith took hyper-diffusionist theory to its ultimate extreme by tracing the origins of all higher civilizations throughout the world back to one source - ancient Egypt. Both men wrote numerous books and articles postulating the influence of ancient Egyptian culture on various societies throughout the world. Though hyper-diffusionist theories never dominated anthropological and archaeological thinking, moderate diffusionism did in the early 20th century. Therefore, it is not surprising that various fringe theories postulating visits to the New World by one or another group from the Old World (e.g., the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel, Mongols) found support in the rise of diffusionist concepts. After all, Grafton Elliot Smith's theory that Egypt was the source of all other ancient civilizations was simply a somewhat more restrained version of Augustus Le Plongeon's earlier theories about the ancient Maya being the mother culture of world civilization including the Egyptians.

The development of radiocarbon dating after 1946, and its calibration using correlations with dendrochronology (tree-ring dating) during the 1960s, completely undermined the hyper-diffusionist reconstructions of prehistory. These techniques revealed that cultures once thought to be the beneficiaries of cultural diffusion from ancient Egypt were actually as old or older than the oldest Egyptians. Archaeological thinking was revolutionized. The independent invention of various cultural traits had obviously taken place far more frequently than diffusionists had supposed. But hyper-diffusionists have refused to give up and continue to revive the same flawed evidence, demonstrating that they are really doing pseudohistory, not scientific history.

Hyperdiffusionist thinking – the concept that culture must spread from a single source – gives rise to the idea that crested helmets of Hawaiian chiefs must have been inspired by the crested helmets of the Greeks.

2. Pyramids and Statues. Egypt is famous for its pyramids but so is Central America with its great pyramids at Teotihuacan, Chichen Itza, and other places. A casual observer might easily conclude that the ancient Egyptians and Americans were in contact because these great structures look so much alike. Indeed, the general similarity of the pyramids, and the "negroid-like" features of the Olmec statues of Mexico, have led extreme Afrocentrists to conclude that black Africans (they also claim the Egyptians were all black) were the first to discover America. Unfortunately two basic problems make any Egyptian - American contacts impossible. The first objection is chronology. Many centuries separated the Pyramid Age of Egypt from the time when the pyramids of Teotihuacan and Chichen Itza were constructed. Second, while the form of the pyramids may be similar, the functions are totally different. Egyptian pyramids primarily served as tombs while the American pyramids were temples. Furthermore, archaeological research has reconstructed the independent evolution of the pyramids in both regions, leaving no room for diffusionist explanations. Finally, while features on Olmec statues do indeed resemble those of African peoples, they also look similar to those of native Americans. What one "sees" in a statue, however, is hardly historical evidence of origin, since one can easily see what one wants or expects to see, especially in such generalized forms as artwork.




What race do the giant sculptured heads found at San Lorenzo and La Venta in Mexico represent? “Egyptians, Phoenicians, Africans, Trojans, Carthaginians, Romans, Arabs, Irish, Welsh, Germans, Poles, and various groups of Jews such as the wandering Hebrews, one or more of the Ten Lost Tribes, and refugees from the Bar Kokhba revolt. All of these people have been proposed as having crossed the Atlantic Ocean well before 1492.”

3. Supposed Pre-Columbian Diffusion of Plants. If a cultivated plant of Old World origin could be traced to the Americas before 1492 or vice versa, it would be strong evidence for human contact between the two hemispheres. Many such claims are associated with cotton, maize, and the sweet potato, but they have proven in most cases to be fallacious.

There are over 20 species of cotton of which four are cultivated for their fibers. Two of the cultivated species are Gossypium arboreum and Gossypium herbaceum, which have 13 chromosomes in their cells and are known as the Old World cottons. The other two species, Gossypium hirsutum and Gossypium bardadense, possess 26 chromosomes and are known as the New World cottons. Genetically, the two cultivated New World cottons are hybrids that contain the 13 chromosomes of another wild species of New World cotton and the 13 chromosomes of the cultivated Old World cottons. The wild New World cottons are not capable of producing useful fibers. But when these two sets of chromosomes are combined, a cotton plant is created that produces lush clumps of useable fibers. Obviously somehow and sometime in the past the cultivated Old World cottons came into contact with the wild New World cottons and the result was the hybrid, cultivated cottons of the New World. The mystery is whether this process occurred naturally or was assisted by humans.

The creation of the cultivated New World cottons definitely took place a long time ago. Archaeologists have found remains of cotton at Mohenjo-Daro in the Indus River valley dating from 3,000 BCE. In the Americas, cotton fabrics dating from 2,000 - 3,000 BCE have been recovered from archaeological sites at the Tehuacán Valley in Mexico. Obviously the creation of Gossypium hirsutum and Gossypium bardadense took place in the distant past. So distant, in fact, that human assistance by means of transoceanic contact between the Old World and the Americas seems very unlikely. Instead, natural means seem to have produced the cultivated New World cottons. Scholars have developed two possibilities for how this process occurred. First, they suggest that the cultivated Old World cottons Gossypium arboreum and Gossypium herbaceum had grown in the Americas at one time but became extinct sometime before 1492. No archaeological evidence has yet been found to support this theory. Second, they suggest that the unopened cotton bolls of the Old World cottons are capable of floating across the oceans. The prolonged exposure to salt water will not always destroy the seeds ability to germinate successfully. Either of these scenarios brings Old World cottons into contact with wild New World cottons so that hybridization can take place. Neither depends on human travellers to carry the seeds.

Maize, or corn as it is more commonly known in North America, is almost universally accepted by the scholarly world to have originated in ancient America and later spread throughout the world after Christopher Columbus's voyage of 1492. At the same time, many diffusionist writers have suggested that maize actually originated in Asia or that it was of American origin but travelled to Africa, Asia, and Europe before 1492, thus indicating the existence of pre-Columbian contacts between the Americas and the Old World. George F. Carter, the distinguished geographer, has made such claims for pre-Columbian maize in China. Extensive research into the voluminous and detailed botanical literature of pre-Columbian China, however, has failed to reveal any evidence of the cultivation of maize before the early 16th century. The archaeological and historical record for South Asia also has provided no indication of the existence of maize in that region prior to 1492. The same observation applies to Europe where maize first received notice in 1532 in a herbal written by Jerome Buck. From that point onward, maize appeared regularly on the pages of European herbals and botanical works from the 16th century. No such mentions occurred in European botanical works written during the 14th and 15th centuries. This omission would be highly suspicious if maize had already reached Europe before 1492, which it apparently did not do. The literature concerning pre-Columbian maize in Africa is extensive, although the chief exponent of that theory is the South African anthropologist M.D.W. Jeffreys. Jeffreys believes that Arabic - Black African contacts with the Americas took place about 900 CE and after. But as Paul Mangelsdorf, the leading authority on the evolution and history of maize/corn, has suggested, the ambiguities in the terminologies used by Jeffreys' historical sources appear to have caused a confusion between maize and the similar sorghums that did grow in pre-Columbian Africa.

Mangelsdorf has also pointed out that the most telling evidence for the post?Columbian introduction of maize into the Old World is the total absence of pre-Columbian corn cobs outside of the western hemisphere. Pre-Columbian corn cobs are very commonly found in archaeological sites throughout the Americas. They survive readily under many climates and conditions, but so far none that can be convincingly dated to before 1492 have been found in the Old World. Maize cannot be cited as evidence that pre-Columbian contacts took place between the Old World and the Americas because no pre-Columbian maize appears to have existed in the Old World.

There are two divergent claims regarding the sweet potato as evidence for pre-Columbian contact between the Americas and the Old World. One theory is that the sweet potato originated in Africa and was carried to the Americas. The other places the origin of the sweet potato in the Americas but claims that it was carried into Polynesia during the era before European contact.

The sweet potato (Ipomoea batatas) is considered by the vast majority of scholars to be a native of the Americas. It is a member of the morning glory family of plants, and research indicates that it evolved from a wild plant in tropical Central America with the scientific name of Ipomoea trifida. In 1954, the botanist Elmer Drew Merrill speculated about a possible African origin for the sweet potato, although other botanists have either rejected his idea as unfounded or ignored it. That has not stopped some diffusionist writers from occasionally using Merrill's theory of an African origin for the sweet potato to bolster their own ideas about African voyages to pre-Columbian America. It should be remembered, however, that the botanical and archaeological evidence overwhelmingly puts the original home of the sweet potato in the Americas.

Except for a few Spanish landings in the 16th century, sustained European contact with Polynesia began in the 18th century with Jacob Roggeveen's discovery of Easter Island in 1722, and Captain James Cook's visits to the Hawaiian Islands in 1778 and New Zealand in 1769. When the Europeans arrived, the natives of these islands were all cultivating the sweet potato. Obviously the plant came from the Americas, but how and when did it get to Polynesia? Some people have suggested that a natural transfer occurred in which a sweet potato seed or tuber floated from the Americas to the various Polynesian islands by accident. Most experts, however, feel that the sweet potato's seeds or tubers were not capable of floating such vast distances across the Pacific Ocean. Furthermore, prolonged exposure to salt water would also destroy the fertility of the seeds and tubers. As a result, the presence of sweet potatoes in Polynesia would seem to indicate that Polynesian - American contacts similar to Thor Heyerdahl's Kon Tiki voyage occurred during the pre-Columbian era.

Besides the physical presence of the sweet potato in Polynesia, supporters of Polynesian - American contacts also cite linguistic evidence. They claim that in the Lima region of Peru, the native Quechua word for sweet potato is kumar or kumal. The Polynesians know the sweet potato by variations of these Quechua words so that it is called uwala in Hawaii, kumara in New Zealand and Easter Island, umara in Tahiti, and unala in Samoa. Unfortunately, this impressive linguistic evidence is inaccurate. Kumar or kumal was not the Quechua word for sweet potato. In reality, the Quechua word for sweet potato is apichu. Kumar does not refer to sweet potato anywhere along the coastal region of Peru. So, the best linguistic evidence does not support the occurrence of Polynesian - American contacts.

Donald D. Brand, a geographer from the University of Texas, has advanced a subtle theory that claims that the spread of the sweet potato occurred entirely during the post-Columbian times. According to his scenario, Spanish settlers carried the sweet potato home to Spain. From there it reached Portugal in 1500. The Portuguese then carried it to their trading stations in India before 1505. From there Asian traders - Persians, Arabs, and Hindus - took the sweet potato into the Moluccas, or the Spice Islands. At that point, the sweet potato entered a trading network connected to Melanesia. After spreading quickly across these islands, the sweet potato then reached Polynesia before any Europeans set foot on those islands.

Flawed Methodologies

1. The Wordlist Game. In 1846 the future historian Francis Parkman made the following observation while travelling on the great plains:

The Indians raised in concert their cries of lamentation over the corpse, and among [which was] ... clearly distinguished those strange sounds resembling the word 'Hallelujah,' which together with some other accidental coincidences, has given rise to the absurd theory that the Indians are descended from the ten lost tribes of Israel.

What seemed an "accidental coincidence" or "absurd" to Parkman, however, has seemed to be sound evidence to many, more credulous theorists of pre-Columbian contacts between the Americas and the Old World. Algonquins and Irish, Maya and Egyptians, or Peruvians and Polynesians are among the groups for which fallacious wordlists have been compiled. Countless other lists of similar sounding words with similar meanings between one Native American language and another Old World language have appeared to prove various theories of pre-Columbian contacts.

Unfortunately the compiling of such wordlists is an overly simplistic form of comparative linguistics. Linguistic scholars consider the study of grammar to be the more reliable way to make comparisons between different but possibly related languages. Grammatical structures tend to change slowly. In comparison, the words used in any language change over time, often quite rapidly. If two languages contained significant numbers of words borrowed from each other, it would indicate a fairly recent contact. Otherwise, wordlists are fairly useless as evidence of contact in the more distant past.

It is possible to compile lists of similar sounding words with similar meanings for every language in the world with every other language in the world. These lists can be larger or smaller depending on how generously one allows the words to sound alike or have similar meanings. In the end, however, all these lists really prove is that there are a limited number of sounds (phonemes) or combinations of sounds that human beings can make to form words. That number may be a large one but when compared to the vastly larger number of words in all the languages of the world that exist or have existed, there will be many cases where the same sounds have roughly the same meaning in two different languages even though there are no historical connections between those two languages. The similarity is not merely a coincidence but one that has a high probability of happening one way or another. Truly significant connections between words in different languages can only be determined by studying the etymology (the changing history of a word's usage) of the individual words. When proper linguistic methods are applied to the problem of pre-Columbian contacts between the Americas and the Old World they invariably show that nothing significant took place.

2. Inscription Mania and Illegitimate Epigraphy. Epigraphy is the study of inscriptions left by ancient peoples. It is one of the major sources of information that historians use to study the ancient Mediterranean world. Various ancient cultures in Central America, notably the Maya, also produced large numbers of inscriptions of use to epigraphers. Outside of Central America, the various cultures of Native Americans did not possess systems of writing and so would have left no inscriptions for epigraphers. Recently, however, the Harvard marine biologist and amateur archaeologist Barry Fell has theorized that various ancient Celtic peoples and other groups of Mediterranean people colonized North America in the pre-Christian era. He claims that numerous inscriptions in the ancient Celtic script called Ogam are scattered throughout New England and other regions. He and his supporters are constantly on the lookout for such inscriptions and they claim to have been quite successful. The problem is that Ogam script basically consists of combinations of straight lines. So what Fell and his supporters claim is an ancient Celtic inscription looks like natural scratching and wear on rocks to mainstream archaeologists. Fell's case is further compromised by his regarding such proven archaeological frauds as the Davenport Tablets as a genuine artifact left by his "ancient colonists." Basically Fell and other amateur epigraphers are guilty of seeing what they want to see among the weathered rocks of New England. Their unquestioning belief in the existence of these pseudo-inscriptions has been labeled "inscription mania" by professional archaeologists.

3. The Game: Patolli-Pachesi Parallels. A frequently discussed and superficially compelling evidence for pre-Columbian contacts between Asia and America is the similarities between the Aztec game of patolli and the Hindu game of pachesi. In both games the players move pieces around boards with cross-shaped tracks divided into segments. The number of moves a piece can make is determined by throwing lots; the Hindus used cowrie shells while the Aztecs used beans. Similarities between these and other games have been noted as early as 1724. Later in 1879 the great English anthropologist E. B. Tylor (1832-1917) wrote a paper suggesting that patolli has actually been derived from pachesi as a result of ancient contacts between Asia and the Americas. Tylor added the authority of probability to his argument in 1896 and stated that it was highly improbable that two such similar games could have been invented independently.

Tylor's contemporaries, the American scholars Stewart Culin and Daniel Brinton, rejected his conclusion that patolli came to ancient America as a result of cultural diffusion from Asia. They stressed that it was independently invented in the Americas without any Asian influences and went on to cite evidence of geographical distribution and variations to bolster their contention. On the other hand, in the next generation of scholars A. L. Kroeber (1876-1960), the doyen of American anthropology, supported Tylor's conclusions for many years although not because of any particularly sound reasons.

Some anthropologists have developed a theory of limited possibilities to explain similarities between different cultures as an alternative to diffusion. Basically, this theory states that the number of cultural choices may not be large in some cases. Seemingly complex and similar institutions and artifacts could develop independently because the probabilities against it happening are not all that great. In the case of patolli and pachesi, the dice or lots must have at least two flat sides to be functional, while the cross shape of the board is really quite a common and universal shape. Furthermore, with cultures all over the world engaged in gaming, it is not surprising for similar games to appear independently. The anthropologist John Charles Erasmus has cautioned against the facile calculating of possibilities or probabilities for the development of similar cultural traits. Large numbers of people at all times and all over the world are engaged in the process of cultural evolution. That variable, however, is seldom taken into consideration when the probabilities of independent invention are discussed. Furthermore, patolli is the only aspect of Aztec culture that shows any indication of possible Hindu contact. The absence of other Mexican cultural traits of probable Hindu origin is another strong evidence against any pre-Columbian contacts between Mexico and India.

4. Coin Finds. Over the years, 41 documented reports have appeared of Old World coins with pre-Columbian dates being found in the Americas, particularly North America. There may be others. These finds have been used to argue for pre-Columbian visits by Canaanites, Phoenicians, Hebrews, Greeks, Romans, and Norse sailors although so far only the Norse find has managed to stand up to scholarly scrutiny.

Lucio Marineo Siculo (1460-1533), a somewhat credulous Italian humanist, in 1533 reported the finding of a Roman coin from the time of Caesar Augustus in a gold mine in Panama. He concluded that the presence of this coin proved that the Romans had reached the Americas before the Spanish. Gonzalo Fernandez d Oviedo y Valdes touched on Siculo's story in his Historia general y natural de las Indias of 1535 and showed that it was ridiculous.

Significantly, no one found any more pre-Columbian coins in the Americas until several Roman coins from the imperial era were found in the Fayetteville area of Tennessee between 1818 and 1823. The early archaeologist Caleb Atwater was immediately skeptical and suspected that the coins were deliberate plants. The Tennessee antiquarian John Haywood, however, considered the find to be authentic. It is interesting that even Haywood reported that after a Mr. Colter, a man known to possess Roman coins, left Tennessee for Alabama in 1823 that no more coins have ever been found in Tennessee. Modern archaeologists generally agree with Atwater's original assessment and think that the Tennessee coins were part of a hoax.

Only one other documented coin find took place in the 19th century. It occurred in 1880 on an Illinois farm and involved the finding of a Seleucid Greek coin from c. 173-64 BCE. Otherwise all of the remaining 32 coin finds took place in the 20th century, and of that number, 24 were found after 1945. With the exception of the Norse penny found in Maine, all of these coins appear to have been brought to the Americas after 1492. Some of the coins have actually turned out to be forgeries such as the three Bar Kokhba coins found at various places in Kentucky in 1932, 1952, and 1967.

Other genuine ancient coins have been located in archaeological situations that indicate they may be losses from modern collections rather than remains from the distant past. Many coins have been found on the surface of the soil rather than having been dug up. The most common natural tendency for a coin on the ground would be slowly to sink down into the soil rather than to work its way up to the surface after it was buried. It is estimated that some one million Roman coins are in the coin collections of the late 20th century United States. Most of those were brought back from Europe after World War II. Many of these Roman coins are only worth $10.00 or less and so are not looked after all that carefully. The possibility of accidental losses is quite real, and that appears to be what has happened in most of these 20th century finds of pre-Columbian coins.

Jeremiah F. Epstein's 1980 study of coin finds basically concluded that none of them provide legitimate evidence for pre-Columbian contacts. One exception to his conclusion, however, is the Norse penny from the reign of Olav Kyrre (1066-1093) of Norway found in Maine in 1957. Tests have established that it is genuine. But since no one now denies that the medieval Norse reached Newfoundland, it is not implausible that they visited Maine as well.

Fake Artifacts

1. Kensington Rune Stone. This famous but fraudulent Norse artifact was first discovered in Minnesota in 1898 and still has supporters of its authenticity in spite of considerable debunking scholarship to the contrary.

In 1898, Olof Ohman "discovered" the Kensington Rune Stone while clearing trees from his farm in Douglas County, near the town of Kensington, Minnesota. It contained an inscription in runic characters, the ancient alphabet of Scandinavia. Unfortunately, the physical appearance of the inscription belied its supposed antiquity; e.g., its cuts showed none of the weathering associated with a stone carving over 300 years old. It has even been suggested that the inscription was added after Ohman first unearthed the stone.

The Rune Stone's inscription told of a party of Norse making its way through the wilderness during 1362 and suffering the loss of 10 of its members from attacks by hostile Indians. Such a find would have been of immense interest to the Scandinavian immigrant community of the Upper Midwest. In 1898 they were anxious to find proof of Norse precedence over Christopher Columbus in the European discovery of America. The World Columbian Exposition at Chicago during the 1890s had aroused their ethnic ire. Scandinavian Americans wanted to believe that the Kensington Rune Stone was authentic so local support was strong. The scholarly reception of the Kensington Rune Stone, however, was negative from the start on the basis of anachronistic usages of both runic characters and Norse words. Eventually enthusiasm for the Rune Stone stalled and Ohman took it back to his farm where he used it as a steppingstone. True believers in the Scandinavian community, however, continued to claim the Kensington Rune Stone was genuine.

In 1907 Hjalmar R. Holand, a young researcher, came to Douglas County to gather material on the Norwegian immigration to the United States. During his researches, the locals told him about Ohman's rune stone and a curious Holand went to see it. Rejecting earlier scholarly opinion, Holand decided it was a true Norse artifact and Ohman even gave it to him. Starting in 1908, for the rest of his life, Holand attempted to prove that the Kensington Rune Stone was really a medieval Norse inscription. He even got the Minnesota Historical Society so interested that when they issued a report on the stone's authenticity, they ignored additional scholarly opinions to the contrary and pronounced it genuine. Efforts by Holand in 1911 to secure favorable judgments from European scholars met with failure as they all considered the stone to be a hoax. But Holand remained undaunted. In 1932 he published his first book, The Kensington Stone, which defended the stone's authenticity. The stone travelled to the Smithsonian Institute in 1948 for further scholarly investigation which again produced negative results. Holand, however, continued to believe that the Kensington Rune Stone was a true medieval Norse artifact.

The 1950s saw the beginning of a wave of scholarly publications denying the authenticity of the Kensington Rune Stone. The two most devastating attack came from books by experts on Norse studies Erik Wahlgren in 1958 and Theodore C. Blegen in 1968. Their studies convincingly showed that the Kensington Rune Stone was a fake. Blegen even suggests how Olof Ohman may have collaborated with his neighbor Sven Fogelbad to produce the inscription. None of this scholarly activity has managed to stop some true believers from continuing to have faith in the Kensington Rune Stone. For the vast majority of historians and archaeologists, the Kensington Rune Stone is no more than one of the most persistent hoaxes in the history of American archaeology.

The Kensington Rune Stone – “The scholarly reception of the Kensington Rune Stone, however, was negative from the start on the basis of anachronistic usages of both runic characters and Norse words. Eventually enthusiasm for the Rune Stone stalled and Ohman took it back to his farm where he used it as a steppingstone.”

2. Paraiba Stone. In 1872, the most enigmatic of the supposed Phoenician artifacts in the Americas came to light - the Paraiba Stone. A man named Joaquim Alves da Costa claimed to have found, "near the Paraiba" river, a broken stone which had an inscription in a strange alphabet carved on it. After transcribing the inscription, Costa sent the copy to Rio de Janeiro for study. But Brazil had no experts in ancient semitic languages. Instead the conscientious naturalist Ladislau Netto took up the assignment, learned Hebrew, and ultimately determined that the writing on the stone was Phoenician and then translated it. His translation described how 10 Phoenician ships were blown by storms to the coast of Brazil in 534 BCE. Immediately the French scholar Ernest Renan attacked the Paraiba inscription as a fake and others soon joined him. By 1885 the hapless Netto felt compelled to publish a retraction of his original conclusions and even suggested five possible suspects who might have engineered the hoax. Meanwhile Costa disappeared with the stone and no accredited scholar ever saw it first hand. Even the original location of the find was in great doubt since Brazil had two different Paraiba regions. During the 1960s, Cyrus Gordon, a professor of semitic languages and an ardent diffusionist, revived the Paraiba Stone's claims to authenticity. Basically, Gordon had asserted that the Paraiba inscription contains Phoenician grammatical constructions that were unknown in 1872. Other equally qualified specialists in semitic languages disagree with his conclusions and continue to declare the Paraiba Stone to be a hoax. That judgment is the opinion of archaeologists and prehistorians in general.

Historical Fallacies

1. Portuguese Policy of Secrecy or Silence. This controversial historical thesis, formulated in the first quarter of the 20th century by various historians, primarily Portuguese, states that Portugal made many voyages and discoveries in the Atlantic Ocean, including the discovery of the Americas sometime before 1492, but chose to keep those discoveries secret.

Before the 19th century, the historical record contains many gaps and breaks. This condition certainly applies to the surviving records from the Great Age of Discovery. None of the original logs for Christopher Columbus's four voyages survived, although a partial transcript exists for the first voyage. John Cabot's voyages to North America in 1497 are practically without any contemporary documentation and the same situation applies to Bartolomeu Dias's discovery in 1487 of the Cape of Good Hope. Such losses of primary sources are tragic but all too common and they usually occur quite innocently as the result of accidents or neglect. Some historians, however, have questioned whether the gaps in the Portuguese records are all that random. They suggest that some design or policy may lie behind the disappearance of some documents.

The thesis of a deliberate and systematic Portuguese government policy of secrecy concerning overseas exploration is a product of 20th-century historians. Jaime Cortesao, a Portuguese historian, first formulated the thesis in 1924. He contended that the surviving Portuguese chronicles about overseas explorations show definite signs of truncation and censorship.

If one is inclined to believe Cortesao, quite a lot of information was suppressed, including a Portuguese discovery of America prior to 1448. Jaime Cortesao was not alone in his support for the existence of a policy of secrecy. In Portugal the thesis has become a historical orthodoxy and a pillar of national pride. School textbooks at all levels teach it as fact. Lisbon's city government has even decorated its Avenida de Liberdade with a mosaic inscription which reads "Descoberta da America 1472 Joao Vaz Corte - Real Descobridor da America."

Outside of Portugal, historians, including Samuel Eliot Morison, generally reject Cortesao's thesis of a policy of secrecy and its various claims of monumental but previously uncredited Portuguese achievements during the 15th century. Dissent exists even in the Portuguese historical community where the respected historian Duarte Liete attacked Cortesao's theory as early as 1936. But in spite of all the controversy, the thesis of a Portuguese policy of secrecy still possesses enthusiastic supporters, and so continues to attract equally determined opponents.

The basic complaint of skeptical historians concerning the policy of secrecy is the almost complete absence of solid evidence for its existence. Historians admit that monarchs and countries throughout history have attempted to protect their overseas commerce by maintaining secrecy about the how and the where of their sources. But ultimately these efforts have failed. Supporters of the policy of secrecy reply that the lack of evidence is in itself evidence of the existence of a policy of secrecy that was extremely effective. Of course, their opponents, particularly Samuel Eliot Morison, find such an argument both circular and ridiculous. Ultimately Morison feels that Cortesao's thesis requires the Portuguese to maintain their secrets apparently for the sake of secrecy alone and often against their own best interests. He rightly argues that the Portuguese government's pursuit of a policy of secrecy needs to make sense and be of benefit to the national interests. If Portugal already knew about the Americas before 1492, why did Joao II abdicate virtually all of that new land to Spain in the Treaty of Tordesillas?

Another argument repeatedly brought to bear against the existence of such a policy of secrecy is the well documented and sustained participation of a substantial number of foreigners in Portugal's overseas explorations. Martin Behaim of Germany and Christopher Columbus of Genoa are simply the best known of a host of foreigners who served in Portugal's overseas ventures. With so many foreigners involved in Portugal's overseas enterprises, it would have been impossible to keep important discoveries a secret. Details of Portugal's jealously guarded African trade leaked out with amazing rapidity. Furthermore, little attempt was made to keep secret Bartolomeu Dias's discovery of the Cape of Good Hope in 1487 or Vasco da Gama's voyage to India in 1497. Why did the Portuguese let these important discoveries become public knowledge if they had such an effective policy of secrecy? Not surprisingly, outside of Portugal, the thesis of the policy of secrecy and its accompanying suppression of information about various discoveries, most notably a pre-Columbian discovery of America, has found little support among historians.

2. White God Legends. This group of Native American myths purportedly describes vague memories of pre-Columbian visitors from the Old World. Most of these legends supposedly relate to peoples from the ancient Mediterranean or Western European cultures. Some adherents of pre-Columbian contacts between the Old World and the Americas claim that these same legends actually refer to visitors from Africa or China, which would more accurately make them yellow or black god legends.

The Native American gods commonly identified as white gods are Quetzalcoatl, Kukulcan, Itzamna, Votan, Viracocha, and Sume. According to various popular writers, all of these deities were bearded, white-skinned, departed from the Americas with a promise to return, and established civilization and higher humanitarian values during the time they ruled over the various indigenous tribes and kingdoms. It is claimed that these legends of white gods are almost universal among the aboriginal peoples of both North and South America. These legends supposedly aided the Spanish conquest of the Aztecs, the Incas, the Mayas, the Chibchas, and various other peoples since they mistakenly took the Spanish conquistadors to be their returning white gods.

Although there were many supposed white gods among the various groups of Native Americans, there are even more candidates to serve as the inspiration for the white god legends among the supposed pre-Columbian visitors to the Americas. The list includes St. Thomas, St. Brendan, Prince Madoc of Wales, and even Jesus Christ.

The problem with all of these theories is that they are not based on original and authentic Native American legends. Most of the so-called white gods are actually humans who filled the role of being culture heroes. Like the Greek culture-hero Prometheus who brought civilizing fire to humanity, the Native American culture heroes brought the benefits of agriculture, writing, the calendar, and true religion to their peoples. Generally these gods are described as bearded but that is no proof of their being white. Native Americans can sometimes grow beards, and these beards, such as the Aztec emperor Moctezuma II's, were observed by the Spanish. The problem is that many versions of these legends have been contaminated with post-Columbian additions by the Spanish. The whiteness of these white gods is not mentioned in the most authentic versions of the culture-hero legends. Quetzalcoatl is actually described as having a black or a black and yellow striped face. It also appears that the white god's departure from and promise to return to the Americas are usually post-Columbian additions. In the case of Quetzalcoatl, some historians, such as Nigel Davies, think that the belief that Hernan Cortes was the returned Quetzalcoatl was a delusion concocted by the nervous Aztec emperor Moctezuma II. There was no general belief among the Aztecs that Quetzalcoatl would return. David Carrasco, a historian of religion, disagrees and instead claims that during its final years the Aztec empire lived in dread anticipation of Quetzalcoatl's return. But in the case of the other Native American gods Votan, Viracocha, and Sume - the legend of the white gods was a Spanish fraud.

Other problems with linking white god legends to historic persons or peoples are chronological. Quetzalcoatl lived sometime during the years 900-1100 CE which eliminates most of the supposed ancient pre-Columbian visitors, including Jesus Christ, as candidates for inspiring his legend. Furthermore, the white god legends, like most tales of pre-Columbian visitors to the Americas, lack a convincing foundation in the archaeological and documentary evidence. Close study of the Native American myths simply makes the white god legends seem less and less credible.

Why Pseudohistory?

Why do people continue to believe in dubious theories about pre-Columbian contacts between the Old World and the Americas? One reason is that it is a common characteristic of human nature to have a fascination with the strange and fantastic and these theories are, for the most part, very strange and utterly fantastic. They also claim to be based on lost or even suppressed knowledge which provides yet a further source of fascination. There are hints and even outright claims of some sort of conspiracy to suppress such knowledge. Ultimately pre Columbian contact theorists and their adherents can believe that they are embattled intellectual heroes. Since it is difficult, if not impossible, to disprove a secret conspiracy (it is, in essence, a nonfalsifiable claim), adherents are fairly safe in their belief.

Sadly, there is also an element of racism inherent in many of the theories of pre-Columbian contact. The 19th-century supporters of the theory of a lost white race of moundbuilders were basically denying that the Native Americans possessed the ability to create a higher civilization. But any modern theory that attributes the fundamental development of higher civilization in the Americas to visiting Egyptians, Hebrews, Phoenicians, Romans, Africans, Chinese, Japanese, or some other ancient Old World peoples is also unfairly downplaying the manifest creativity and intelligence of the Native Americans. Such theories ignore a substantial archaeological record which fully documents the achievements of the Native Americans. Too many theorists of pre-Columbian contacts have their own racial or ethnic agenda which ignores the legitimate achievements of the pre-Columbian Native Americans and is insensitive to the feelings of their descendants.

In spite of their logical and scholarly problems, theories about pre-Columbian contacts between the Americas and the Old World continue to thrive, while books supporting those theories are steadily proliferating. Sloppy and inappropriate methodologies and inadequate or non-existent evidence have never stood in the way of the concoction or the survival of the most preposterous theories about pre-Columbian contacts. Just in the past few years several new books concerning this realm of pseudohistory have appeared or are scheduled to appear. In 1992 two books appeared which surveyed the whole gamut of theories about pre-Columbian contacts: Patrick Huyghe, Columbus was Last: From 200,000 B.C. to 1492, A Heretical History of Who Was First (Hyperion) and Gunnar Thompson, American Discovery: The Real Story (Misty Isles Press). Apparently the various theories of pre-Columbian contacts can mutually coexist in relative peace with each other, at least in the pages of these two tomes. Meanwhile in the same year R. J. Jairazbhoy published Rameses III: Father of Ancient America (Karnak House) which continues his earlier efforts to establish the role of travellers from ancient Egypt in the rise of higher civilization in the Americas. Publication of two additional books is expected at any time. Ivan Van Sertima, the author of They Came Before Columbus: The African Presence in Ancient America (Random House, 1977), is supposed to be close to publishing African Voyages Before Columbus. Even more imminent is Jim Bailey's Sailing to Paradise: The Discovery of America in 5,000 B.C. (Simon & Schuster, forthcoming) which appears to extend the theories he first put forward in The God-Kings and the Titans: The New World Ascendancy in Ancient Times (St. Martin's, 1973). But in spite of all the hype, these books are all plowing or will be plowing the same old, tired, and infertile fields of evidence. It is truly a never ending story.

Further reading:

The following are excellent overviews of the theories and errors of the theorists of pre-Columbian contact with the Americas:

- Nigel Davies, Voyagers to the New World (1979)
- Kenneth L. Feder, Frauds, Myths, and Mysteries: Science and Pseudoscience in Archaeology (1990)
- Robert Wauchope, Lost Tribes and Sunken Continents. Myth and Method in the Study of American Indians (1962)
- Stephen Williams, Fantastic Archaeology: The Wild Side of North American Prehistory (1991).

The Pseudohistory of Who Discovered America - Ronald Fritze reviews some of the theories relating to pre-Columbian transatlantic contact.


 
 
 
 
 

 


 
 


Posted By: Worldhistory
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 21:44
Originally posted by Krum

Muslims discovered america!!!!

What is next?Muslims reached the moon first or Jesus Christ was a turk.


Don't laugh, Muslims actually think they conquered Spain and were responsible for the rise of science and agriculture in Europe with as much proof as they have for discovering America.

Ask for proof and all they do is show you the Koran - which of course holds the monopoly on just about every topic.





Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 22:24
Muslims conquered Spain! And they contributed quite a bit to the development of Europe.
 
In Spain they spread the knowledge of engineering, music, the ancient classics and the contemporary scientific works. In Sicily they started the first Europeans medical schools. No matter Christians finally won and expelled them, both Spain and Italy always remember with respect the contributions of the ancient Muslims, that brought the torch of education to countries in decadence.
 
But Muslims were NEVER in the Americas! Anyways.
 
Pinguin
 
 


Posted By: mard
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 22:31
Originally posted by Worldhistory

Originally posted by Krum

Muslims discovered america!!!!

What is next?Muslims reached the moon first or Jesus Christ was a turk.


Don't laugh, Muslims actually think they conquered Spain and were responsible for the rise of science and agriculture in Europe with as much proof as they have for discovering America.

Ask for proof and all they do is show you the Koran - which of course holds the monopoly on just about every topic.



 
your an idiot dude, it is an established fact the muslims of middle ages were way ahead in technology of the Europeans of the middle ages. Infact most of Northern and Western Europe was not even part of the civilized world until only 500 years ago.


Posted By: Worldhistory
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 22:34
Originally posted by mard

your an idiot dude, it is an established fact the muslims of middle ages were way ahead in technology of the Europeans of the middle ages. Infact most of Northern and Western Europe was not even part of the civilized world until only 500 years ago.


No it isn't. It's just Asiatic propaganda just like a Muslim Turkish discovery of America. The Piris Map is full of Portuguese words and names on it but we all know the Muslims will just rebadge it and give it similar Arabic sounding names and before you know it there will be hundreds of Muslims psuedo-historians propagating the same fantasy.

Give it a couple of centuries and you'll see how the Muslims rebadge everything so that it soon becomes as if it's factual.

    


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 22:37
Originally posted by mard

 
your an idiot dude, it is an established fact the muslims of middle ages were way ahead in technology of the Europeans of the middle ages. Infact most of Northern and Western Europe was not even part of the civilized world until only 500 years ago.
 
However I agree with you with respect to Northern Europe, the case of Southern Europe was a different. Spain and Italy, although decadent since some centuries before, was still the repository of the heritage of a civilization (the Roman Empire) when the Muslim invaded. Is not that Muslims brough civilization to Spain or Italy, because it existed in there already! What they did was to stop the decline and make the region to progress again.
 
Pinguin


Posted By: mard
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 22:38

what  propoganda? i am stating facts you moron, most of europe with the exception of Roman empire and Greece was never part of the civilized world. And when Europe went in to dark ages arabs borrowed the stuff of greeks and romans and made it even more advanced.



Posted By: Worldhistory
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 22:40
Originally posted by mard

what  propoganda? i am stating facts you moron, most of europe with the exception of Roman empire and Greece was never part of the civilized world. And when Europe went in to dark ages arabs borrowed the stuff of greeks and romans and made it even more advanced.




No you're not. You're just selecting what suits you and ignoring what doesn't.

That's why you resort to name calling - you know you know sh*t all about history and European civilization.


    
    


Posted By: mard
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 22:40
pinguin i agree with that thats why you see my post last post exactly says that. To me Greece and Rome have much more in commen with Middle East and they have been linked with each other for the last 5000 years


Posted By: mard
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 22:42
Originally posted by Worldhistory

Originally posted by mard

what  propoganda? i am stating facts you moron, most of europe with the exception of Roman empire and Greece was never part of the civilized world. And when Europe went in to dark ages arabs borrowed the stuff of greeks and romans and made it even more advanced.




No you're not. You're just selecting what suits you and ignoring what doesn't.


    
 
 
its not even worth talking to a moron like you who has no idea about history, Learn history then we can debate.


Posted By: Worldhistory
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 22:46
Originally posted by mard

its not even worth talking to a moron like you who has no idea about history, Learn history then we can debate.

   
You're just a fake so you resort to name calling. All you have to do is read Strabo and you would see that Western Europe was very advanced.

Strabo mentions people in Spain as having a written text for 8000 years.

Celtic peoples were all over Spain and France and they're considered the most culturally advanced people of Europe.

Even Herodotus mentions Tartessos in Spain as being so advanced that it make Greeks look like beggars.


Posted By: Hellios
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 22:47
SubjectTopic: Turkish Professor: Muslims Discovered America!
 
The Vikings had a fully functional settlement in North America is 980 AD.  They had explored the area even before then.
 
http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/4 - http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/4
 
 


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 22:49
Originally posted by mard

pinguin i agree with that thats why you see my post last post exactly says that. To me Greece and Rome have much more in commen with Middle East and they have been linked with each other for the last 5000 years
 
You bet! All the people of the Mediterranean sea has a common heritage that goes back thousand of years!
 
Pinguin


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 22:51
Originally posted by Hellios

SubjectTopic: Turkish Professor: Muslims Discovered America!
 
The Vikings had a fully functional settlement in North America is 980 AD.  They had explored the area even before then.  For sources just ask.
 
 
Sorry, but Native Americans were the first! The Inuits the second! And the Vikings died of hunger! You know that.
 
Pinguin


Posted By: Hellios
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 22:53
Even children know the aboriginals were there first - there's no discussion there.  For there to be a discussion, the focus should be about which foreigners got there first.  
 
 
 
 


Posted By: mard
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 22:58
at the end of the day, whats the big deal even if chinese, vikings or muslims discovered? its just a peace of land lol


Posted By: Worldhistory
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 22:59
The Viking story is of course false and they're just rebadging Greenland for America. There's not an ounce of proof.

The Portuguese were the first Europeans but it wasn't Columbus either. Another Portuguese, can't remember his name now, discovered America (actually New Foundland, Canada) after reports from Portuguese fisherman in the Azores islands had seen land towards the west after a fishing trip.

Columbus never landed in America but only the Carribean islands.

NewFoundland derives its name from the Portuguese language as does Canada, America and Brazil.


Posted By: Hellios
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 23:04
Originally posted by pinguin

And the Vikings died of hunger! You know that. 
 
I believe the topic is about discovery, anyhow the Vikings went beyond that and settled, but they didn't die of hunger like you said.  They were driven away by natives. Wink
 


Posted By: Hellios
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 23:07
Originally posted by Worldhistory

The Viking story is of course false and they're just rebadging Greenland for America. There's not an ounce of proof.
 
There's an archaeological site, recognized by UNESCO:
 
http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/4 - http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/4
 


Posted By: Worldhistory
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 23:09
Originally posted by Hellios

There's an archaeological site, recognized by UNESCO


United Nations isn't regarded as a bastian of historical truth.

Come to think of it, it's a good example of rebadging because the term Newfoundland is Portuguese in origin and dates only to the 15th century.

So once again, a fantasy Viking discovery is associated with a genuine European discovery.



Posted By: Hellios
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 23:17
It's an archaeological site; what more proof do you want?  Research it using your sources; the name of the site is L'Anse aux Meadows. 
 
 
 
 


Posted By: Hellios
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 23:30
Here, check put this thread; some bright members had a few interesting things to say and there are some links you might find useful:
 
http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=15465&KW=viking - http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=15465&KW=viking
 
Rgds, Bill
 


Posted By: Worldhistory
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 23:35
Certainly not, no proper study has ever been performed and clearly just a tourist attraction.



Posted By: Hellios
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 23:39
Originally posted by Worldhistory

Certainly not, no proper study has ever been performed and clearly just a tourist attraction.
 
Several archaeological studies have been carried out by numerous countries; the results are available through your sources.
 


Posted By: Worldhistory
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 23:46
Originally posted by Hellios

Originally posted by Worldhistory

Certainly not, no proper study has ever been performed and clearly just a tourist attraction.


 

Several archaeological studies have been carried out by numerous countries; the results are available through your sources.

 



Where are these studies then?


Posted By: Hellios
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 23:55
I can give you many but you seem to dismiss even internationally recognized archaeological studies so it might be better for you to use your own archaeological sources; I gave you the name of the archaeological site.
 


Posted By: Joinville
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2006 at 02:57
What mattes here is that the in the opinion of preofessional archeologists the site and evidence is good. That's the professional consensus.

That's how professional collegiality works of course. You can, of course, chose to disbelieve anything you like, but there won't be much point if having professional historical science then. Stick to novelists and politicians instead.

L'Anse aux Meadows in Scientific Publications
Davis, Anthony M., J. H. McAndrews and Birgitta Wallace(1988)
"Paleoenvironment and the Archaeological Record at the L'Anse aux Meadows Site, Newfoundland." Geoarchaeology: An International Journal 3, 1:53-64.

Gimbarzevsky, Philip (1977)
L'Anse aux Meadows National Historic Park Integrated Survey of Biophysical Resources.
Information Report FMR-X-99, Forest Management Institute. Copies available from Environment Canada, Ottawa, Ontario.

Grant, Douglas R. (1975)
"Surficial Geology and Sea-Level Changes, L'Anse aux Meadows National Historic Park." Geological Survey of Canada, Paper 75-1, Part A, pp. 409-410. Ottawa.

Ingstad, Anne Stine and Helge Ingstad (1986)
The Norse Discovery of America. 2 vols..

Volume 1: Excavations at L'Anse aux Meadows, Newfoundland 1961-1968 430 pp., illus., Oslo:
The Norwegian University Press (reissue of Anne Stine Ingstad's 1977 "The discovery of a Norse Settlement in America. Excavations at L'Anse aux Meadows, Newfoundland 1961-1968").

Volume 2: The Historical Background and the Evidence of the Norse Settlement Discovered in Newfoundland. 573 pp., illus., Oslo: The Norwegian University Press.

Ingstad, Helge (1966)
Westward to Vinland: The Discovery of Pre-Columbian Norse House-Sites in North America 250 pp., illus., London: Jonathan Cape.

Lindsay, Charles S. (1977)
"Was L'Anse aux Meadows a Norse Outpost?" Canadian Geographic Journal, February/March 1977:36-43, illus.

Wallace, Birgitta Linderoth (1978)
"Les vikings à Terre-Neuve." Dossiers de l'archéologie, 27:44-48, 7 figs. Dijon: Archeologis; Bruxelles: Editions Soumillion.

(1986)
"The L'Anse aux Meadows Site." Appendix VII in The Norse Atlantic Saga, by Gwyn Jones ó editor, 1986.

(1990)
"L'Anse aux Meadows, Gateway to Vinland." Acta Archaeologica, 60:166-197.

(1992)
"L'Anse aux Meadows," in Medieval Scandinavia, Garland Encyclopaedias of the Middle Ages, ed. Philip Pulisiano et. al., Hamden, CT: Garland Publishing.

(1993)
"L'Anse aux Meadows, the Western Outpost," in Viking Voyages to North America, ed. Birthe L. Clausen, pp. 30-42. Rosklide, Denmark: Viking Ship Museum.

-------------
One must not insult the future.


Posted By: Joinville
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2006 at 03:13
Originally posted by pinguin

Originally posted by mard

pinguin i agree with that thats why you see my post last post exactly says that. To me Greece and Rome have much more in commen with Middle East and they have been linked with each other for the last 5000 years

 

You bet! All the people of the Mediterranean sea has a common heritage that goes back thousand of years!

 

Pinguin

    They do indeed, but it's still a weird statement that western and northern Europe should somehow have been deprived of civilisation until about 1500. Medieval Europe was an amalgamation of Roman heritage, western Christianity and Germanic customs. It's what set Europe up as what it is today.

It takes a VERY limited definition of civilisation at least, and a complete disregard for the European High Middle Ages.

-------------
One must not insult the future.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2006 at 09:16
Originally posted by mard

at the end of the day, whats the big deal even if chinese, vikings or muslims discovered? its just a peace of land lol
 
NO. It is not just a piece of land. The Americas are OUR LAND!
 
Pinguin


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2006 at 09:25
Originally posted by Hellios

Originally posted by Worldhistory

Certainly not, no proper study has ever been performed and clearly just a tourist attraction.
 
Several archaeological studies have been carried out by numerous countries; the results are available through your sources.
 
 
It is curious. I have always have the suspiction the viking site of New Foundland is a BIG HOAX. There are reasons to believe so, anyways. Nordics have always wanted that blond people were the first to "discover" the Americas. No matter those blonds Norses were more primitives than Fred Flinstone LOLLOL.
 
But, anyways, LET'S ACCEPT the site as true LOL. Now, anyone that pick a map of Greenland could see that the Americas are just across the horizon. It is even possible TO SEE the Americas from Greenland in clear days!
 
Besides, Inuits crossed back and forth from Greenland to the Americas and viceversa IN KAYAKS since looooo... ooooong time ago.
 
 
 
Pinguin
 
 


Posted By: Hellios
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2006 at 10:09
Pinguin,
 
There are Chilean archaeological sources about that site - I just looked at a few - maybe they can help you shed your suspicion - you have the name of the site.
 
Yes! the Inuit went very far on their kayaks by coasting, although their boats were not as able (as the Viking ships) to cross open seas in order to explore Europe.
 
Bye Pinguin.
 


Posted By: the_oz
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2006 at 11:19
can someone post a map of america which is made before piri reis map?
http://www.ee.bilkent.edu.tr/%7Ehistory/Pictures2/piri.jpg - http://www.ee.bilkent.edu.tr/~history/Pictures2/piri.jpg
I wonder how are the map of vikings or portugese.


Posted By: Goban
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2006 at 11:53
Wasn't there major trade from Greenland to Europe since its early colonization?
 
E.g. walrus ivory and polar bear fur were traded regularly. Also, when Greenland was all but denuded, they began to depend on some imports, which is why they ultimately starved and fled or succumbed (from class notes).
 
With all this trade, you would think someone would have traveled the extra "few miles" to the new world; especially if its land can be seen from ashore on a clear day...
 
So, denying the viking's presence in the new world wouldn't make much sense either...
 
 
 


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The sharpest spoon in the drawer.


Posted By: flyingzone
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2006 at 12:51

Who denies Viking presence in the New Wolrd??? It is not a myth. It is an established fact. One can actually visit remnants of one of those Viking settlements at L'Anse Aux Meadows in Newfoundland, Canada.



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