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ArmenianSurvival
Chieftain
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Topic: Do muslims really embrace the west? Posted: 05-Feb-2006 at 22:46 |
Cool article. I liked this part:
The Arab media run cartoons depicting Jews and the symbols of the
Jewish faith with imagery indistinguishable from that used in the Third
Reich. But I have yet to see Jews or Israelis threaten the lives of
Muslims because of it. |
I hate to side with Israel out of all countries ( ), but whats right is right. One
can argue this by saying "Muslims don't recognize Israel as a state and
therefore can say whatever they want". Well, as non-Islamic countries,
the west doesn't have to recognize or follow taboos within the
frameworks of Islam (or any religion for that matter).
Should one depict Mohummed as a terrorist? I
personally think that was wrong. But the reaction was worse than the
initial act, especially if you consider that if there was no
overreaction, NO ONE would have seen these comics besides a few Danes.
There should've been a reaction to the comics. What is happening now is an OVERreaction.
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Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance
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Omar al Hashim
King
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Posted: 05-Feb-2006 at 23:13 |
Originally posted by Loknar
do they really embrace western beliefs?
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Originally posted by Heraclius
I believe if you live in a country you must adapt to its culture and way of life
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Right I have to ask. What the hell are western beliefs anyway?
Name me any western belief that has existed for 100 years?
Originally posted by flyingzone
'The Muslim world needs to do something to appease the West. Since
Ayatullah Khomeini declared a death sentence against Salman Rushdie for
how he depicted Muhammad in his book The Satanic Verses, Islamic
radicals have been essentially threatening the free discussion of their
religion and politics in the West. Rushdie escaped with his life. But
Pim Fortuyn, a Dutch politician who stood up against Muslim immigrant
hostility to equality for women and gays, was murdered on the street.
Theo van Gogh, a Dutch filmmaker who offended strict Muslims, was
killed thereafter. Several other Dutch politicians who have dared to
criticize the intolerance of many Muslims live with police protection.'
This is a point that I have made several times on different threads. I
haven't gotten any feedback from any of the Muslim forumers here ono
that.
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Pim Fortuyn never heard of. van Gogh, good shot. Salman Rushdie, better be prepare for one too.
Now on muslim intolerance. Muslims in the west have made huge
accomodations from what they are used to and expect, muslims in the
west tolerate all the western behavior. But every person has there
limit.
Originally posted by flyingzone
You can respect a religion without honoring its taboos. I eat pork, and
I'm not an anti-Semite. As a Catholic, I don't expect atheists to
genuflect before an altar.
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Just a slight difference. You're not trying to force us to eat pork.
You can do what you like in private where it is only you who are
affected, but don't attack us. That cartoon was an attack upon Islam
and muslims everywhere.
Originally posted by flyingzone
The Arab media run cartoons depicting Jews and the symbols of the
Jewish faith with imagery indistinguishable from that used in the Third
Reich. But I have yet to see Jews or Israelis threaten the lives of
Muslims because of it.'
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Apparently the author has never watched a holliwood film, nor seen what the Israelis do in the Philistine.
Originally posted by flyingzone
So where were the Muslim boycotts of Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan after that horrifying event?
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hello? We attacked Afghanistan and the Saudis are hunting down the terrorists.
Originally posted by flyingzone
They were designed to reveal Islamic intolerance--and they have now done so, in abundance
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They were designed to start a war thats what.
Originally posted by ArmenianSurvival
There should've been a reaction to the comics. What is happening now is an OVERreaction.
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There is an over reaction because the europeans are fueling the fire by refusing to comdemn the cartoons
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ArmenianSurvival
Chieftain
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Posted: 05-Feb-2006 at 23:20 |
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim
There is an over reaction because the europeans are fueling the fire by refusing to comdemn the cartoons |
Didn't they fire the guy who re-ran the comic?
And didn't the Danes apologize for "realizing that many Muslims were
offended"? I don't see people burning anything other than Danish flags,
and calling for boycotts of Danish goods.
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Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance
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Genghis
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Posted: 05-Feb-2006 at 23:22 |
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim
There is an over reaction because the europeans are fueling the fire by refusing to comdemn the cartoons
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The Europeans were not the first to use violence in this affair to express themselves. You can't have freedom of speech with the fear that if you really offend someone they'll kill you.
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flyingzone
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Posted: 05-Feb-2006 at 23:24 |
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim
Originally posted by flyingzone
'The Muslim world needs to do something to appease the West. Since Ayatullah Khomeini declared a death sentence against Salman Rushdie for how he depicted Muhammad in his book The Satanic Verses, Islamic radicals have been essentially threatening the free discussion of their religion and politics in the West. Rushdie escaped with his life. But Pim Fortuyn, a Dutch politician who stood up against Muslim immigrant hostility to equality for women and gays, was murdered on the street. Theo van Gogh, a Dutch filmmaker who offended strict Muslims, was killed thereafter. Several other Dutch politicians who have dared to criticize the intolerance of many Muslims live with police protection.'
This is a point that I have made several times on different threads. I haven't gotten any feedback from any of the Muslim forumers here ono that.
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Pim Fortuyn never heard of. van Gogh, good shot. Salman Rushdie, better be prepare for one too.
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What you said just speaks for itself loud and clear. No discussion is needed with someone who condones murder just because another person speaks up against his religion.
Is this what Islam teaches you? Very scary ...
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Omar al Hashim
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Posted: 05-Feb-2006 at 23:26 |
Originally posted by ArmenianSurvival
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim
There is an over reaction because the europeans are fueling the fire by refusing to comdemn the cartoons |
Didn't they fire the guy who re-ran the comic?
And didn't the Danes apologize for "realizing that many Muslims were
offended"? I don't see people burning anything other than Danish flags,
and calling for boycotts of Danish goods.
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Saying, "we apologise for offending muslim people but we defend the
right for someone to print it again" is not condemning the cartoon.
Firing the guy who re-ran the cartoon is a much better response but as
far as I know that has only happened in one French Newspaper.
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Omar al Hashim
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Posted: 05-Feb-2006 at 23:28 |
Originally posted by flyingzone
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim
Originally posted by flyingzone
'The
Muslim world needs to do something to appease the West. Since Ayatullah
Khomeini declared a death sentence against Salman Rushdie for how he
depicted Muhammad in his book The Satanic Verses, Islamic radicals have
been essentially threatening the free discussion of their religion and
politics in the West. Rushdie escaped with his life. But Pim Fortuyn, a
Dutch politician who stood up against Muslim immigrant hostility to
equality for women and gays, was murdered on the street. Theo van Gogh,
a Dutch filmmaker who offended strict Muslims, was killed thereafter.
Several other Dutch politicians who have dared to criticize the
intolerance of many Muslims live with police protection.'
This
is a point that I have made several times on different threads. I
haven't gotten any feedback from any of the Muslim forumers here ono
that.
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Pim Fortuyn never heard of. van Gogh, good shot. Salman Rushdie, better be prepare for one too.
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What you said just speaks for itself loud and clear. No discussion
is needed with someone who condones murder just because another person
speaks up against his religion.
Is this what Islam teaches you? Very scary ... |
No Islam doesn't teach that at all. Thats all testosterone, and a reaction in the face of provecation
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Omar al Hashim
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Posted: 05-Feb-2006 at 23:31 |
Originally posted by Genghis
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim
There is an over reaction because the europeans are fueling the fire by refusing to comdemn the cartoons
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The Europeans were not the first to use violence in this affair to
express themselves. You can't have freedom of speech with the
fear that if you really offend someone they'll kill you. |
People are resorting to violence because they believe that there is no
other way for their opinions to be heard. The European Justice system
appears not to be providing any method for people to fight against
offensive behavior peacefully.
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Genghis
Caliph
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Posted: 05-Feb-2006 at 23:33 |
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim
Originally posted by Genghis
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim
There is an over reaction because the europeans are fueling the fire by refusing to comdemn the cartoons
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The Europeans were not the first to use violence in this affair to express themselves. You can't have freedom of speech with the fear that if you really offend someone they'll kill you.
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People are resorting to violence because they believe that there is no other way for their opinions to be heard. The European Justice system appears not to be providing any method for people to fight against offensive behavior peacefully.
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That's ridiculous, the Syrians, Saudis, Iranians, and Libyans have pulled their ambassadors, there was a boycott, and demonstrations. The message was being sent loud and clear before fires were started.
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Member of IAEA
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Omar al Hashim
King
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Posted: 05-Feb-2006 at 23:38 |
Originally posted by Genghis
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim
Originally posted by Genghis
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim
There is an over reaction because the europeans are fueling the fire by refusing to comdemn the cartoons
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The Europeans were not the first to use violence in this affair to
express themselves. You can't have freedom of speech with the
fear that if you really offend someone they'll kill you.
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People are resorting to violence because they believe
that there is no other way for their opinions to be heard. The European
Justice system appears not to be providing any method for people to
fight against offensive behavior peacefully.
|
That's ridiculous, the Syrians, Saudis, Iranians, and Libyans have
pulled their ambassadors, there was a boycott, and
demonstrations. The message was being sent loud and clear before
fires were started. |
Ok, I didn't think of that.
People are resorting to voilence because they are stupid and feel they have no power, even if they are wrong.
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Genghis
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Posted: 05-Feb-2006 at 23:42 |
I don't think they're stupid, I'd be mad too if I were a moslem, they're just getting carried away and not realizing that the Europeans routinely allow offensive stuff like this to be published. I think most of this comes from the fact that the Europeans don't appreciate how close the Moslems hold the image of Mohammed to their hearts and the Moslems don't appreciate how close the Europeans hold the inviolability of freedom of speech to their hearts. As a neutral observer, I think a lot of this is just because European and Islamic culture are on two entirely different wavelengths.
Edited by Genghis
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Dawn
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Posted: 05-Feb-2006 at 23:43 |
Originally posted by Genghis
I think a lot of this is just because European and Islamic culture are on two entirely different wavelengths. |
Now that is a statement full of truth
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Omar al Hashim
King
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Posted: 05-Feb-2006 at 23:45 |
Originally posted by Genghis
I don't think they're stupid, I'd be mad too if I were a
moslem, they're just getting carried away and not realizing that the
Europeans routinely allow offensive stuff like this to be published. I
think most of this comes from the fact that the Europeans don't
appreciate how close the Moslems hold the image of Mohammed to their
hearts and the Moslems don't appreciate how close the Europeans hold
the inviolability of freedom of speech to their hearts. As a neutral
observer, I think a lot of this is just because European and Islamic
culture are on two entirely different wavelengths. |
And that I think probably sums up the entire issue.
Edited by Omar al Hashim
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Loknar
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Posted: 05-Feb-2006 at 23:57 |
Now on muslim intolerance. Muslims in the west have made huge accomodations from what they are used to and expect, muslims in the west tolerate all the western behavior. But every person has there limit.
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Well, if you as a guest cant tolerate the people already living there, then get the hell out.
Why am I as a westerner supposed to accept that if a man from Pakistan rapes a 16 year old girl for dressing as a slut its his culture and what they do in Pakistan? Well you know what? f*** Pakistan (I dont mean that to the whole country. I know they actually execute rapists), I dont care what they do there. This is the west, it falls in YOU to assimilate. If you dont want to then get the hell out.
Am I as a westerner supposed to cover up our billboards that shows women with out veils and dressed in a bikini? DO I have to stop eating pork in a restaurant because Muslims dont eat pork? Tell me, what do I have to do to accommodate Muslims?
If I immigrate to Saudi Arabia, and Im offended that my wife must wear a veil should I make her wear one? What if I say no I wont listen because Im offended? Well the Saudis would be pissed off because it insults their culture and they as the inhabitants of that land have every right to make my wife wear one (though my western belief says otherwise but thats a talk for another time).
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Omar al Hashim
King
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Posted: 06-Feb-2006 at 00:12 |
Originally posted by Loknar
Now on muslim intolerance. Muslims in the west have made huge
accomodations from what they are used to and expect, muslims in the
west tolerate all the western behavior. But every person has there
limit.
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Well, if you as a guest cant tolerate the people already living there, then get the hell out.
Why am I as a westerner supposed to accept that if a man from
Pakistan rapes a 16 year old girl for dressing as a slut its his
culture and what they do in Pakistan? Well you know what? f*** Pakistan
(I dont mean that to the whole country. I know they actually execute
rapists), I dont care what they do there. This is the west, it falls
in YOU to assimilate. If you dont want to then get the hell out. Am I as a westerner supposed to cover up our billboards that
shows women with out veils and dressed in a bikini? DO I have to stop
eating pork in a restaurant because Muslims dont eat pork? Tell me,
what do I have to do to accommodate Muslims? If I immigrate to Saudi Arabia, and Im offended that my wife
must wear a veil should I make her wear one? What if I say no I wont
listen because Im offended? Well the Saudis would be pissed off
because it insults their culture and they as the inhabitants of that
land have every right to make my wife wear one (though my western
belief says otherwise but thats a talk for another time).
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Are you agreeing with me? I said all these things western muslims agree
with western whatevers about. Muslims aren't drawing offence at any of
that.
Muslims who are intolerant do draw offense at that. 99% of Muslims who
are tolerant don't. But that 99% will get offended about the cartoon.
Edited by Omar al Hashim
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Maju
King
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Posted: 06-Feb-2006 at 02:09 |
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim
People are resorting to violence because they believe that there is no
other way for their opinions to be heard. The European Justice system
appears not to be providing any method for people to fight against
offensive behavior peacefully.
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No. The judicial system allows for freedom of speech. And it's very
insultng that you pretend us to change the laws just to fit with your
violent demands.
After all, Islam may forbid Muslims to draw Mohammed... but it can't
forbid non-Muslims anything. Doing otherwise would be religious fascism.
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NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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Maju
King
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Posted: 06-Feb-2006 at 02:16 |
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim
Originally posted by Loknar
Now on muslim intolerance. Muslims in the west have made huge
accomodations from what they are used to and expect, muslims in the
west tolerate all the western behavior. But every person has there
limit.
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Well, if you as a guest cant tolerate the people already living there, then get the hell out.
Why am I as a westerner supposed to accept that if a man from
Pakistan rapes a 16 year old girl for dressing as a slut its his
culture and what they do in Pakistan? Well you know what? f*** Pakistan
(I dont mean that to the whole country. I know they actually execute
rapists), I dont care what they do there. This is the west, it falls
in YOU to assimilate. If you dont want to then get the hell out. Am I as a westerner supposed to cover up our billboards that
shows women with out veils and dressed in a bikini? DO I have to stop
eating pork in a restaurant because Muslims dont eat pork? Tell me,
what do I have to do to accommodate Muslims? If I immigrate to Saudi Arabia, and Im offended that my wife
must wear a veil should I make her wear one? What if I say no I wont
listen because Im offended? Well the Saudis would be pissed off
because it insults their culture and they as the inhabitants of that
land have every right to make my wife wear one (though my western
belief says otherwise but thats a talk for another time).
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Are you agreeing with me? I said all these things western muslims agree
with western whatevers about. Muslims aren't drawing offence at any of
that.
Muslims who are intolerant do draw offense at that. 99% of Muslims who
are tolerant don't. But that 99% will get offended about the cartoon.
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Look: if you deal with westerners, you must leabve your religious
material at home: this is a laicist society. You are netiltled to the
private right to practice your religion but you can't impose your
religious beliefs (such as not caricaturing Mohammed) to the rest of
the World! You have to put up with that or chose another place to live
in, find another partner to make bussiness with, read only the arabic
papers and Internet sites, etc.
You can make yourself a bubble if you wish... but you can't ask us to put up with your caprices.
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NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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malizai_
Sultan
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Posted: 06-Feb-2006 at 02:24 |
I strongly resent the comments on those placards, but am not alarmed since they do not by far represent the body of muslims in britian. since the faces of the ring leaders are obvious to the news junkies in britian. The people doing the shouting may be of low IQ but the organisers certainly are not and appearences can be deceptive.
They are well organised and their message in all its coarse bruteness and vulgarity has a very subtle message. It is a well constructed message that is political and not from religious perspective. If you look beyond the placards what they are awaiting is the opportunity to shout hypocricy, and denounce the west's claim to freedom of speech. Since they are obviously practicing it and they have taken the initiative by challenging the govt to arrest them. So to say why were you so keen to define the boundaries on freedom of speech now.
To use the old english idiomatic proverb: You cant have your cake and eat it too. i.e something has to give.
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Serge L
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Posted: 06-Feb-2006 at 04:23 |
Originally posted by Dawn
Originally posted by Genghis
I think a lot of this is just because European and Islamic culture are on two entirely different wavelengths. |
Now that is a statement full of truth
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Problem is, this world is becoming smaller and smaller. I guess we need to elaborate some way to pacifically coexist, and find a way to solve conflicts of values and rights
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sedamoun
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Posted: 06-Feb-2006 at 04:58 |
Originally posted by Maju
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After all, Islam may forbid Muslims to draw Mohammed... but it can't forbid non-Muslims anything. Doing otherwise would be religious fascism. [/QUOTE]
I agree, but does that give non muslims the right to make fun of a religion ? I think the answer is yes, but it is morally wrong and a sign of non respect.
Religions are too sensitive, people believe in this stuff too much. It is in fact, as Karl Marx said it, opium for the people.
Cheers.
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