I must say, I am absolutely stunned. I thought, what was a protest, has now degraded into pure hate. In any protest, or boycott, this is unacceptable. Yes they have the freedom to say people who insult Islam should be beheaded.

But, the fact remains, why are they even in Europe? From these pictures I can only come to the conclusion that they hate Europe and if anybody insults Islam they want gallons of human blood on their hands.

I always believed "no not all Muslims are like that..." but looking at this how the hell can I still believe that? If I was a Muslim I'd worry allot about he reputation of my religion and not go around with such signs as "prepare for the real holocaust".

The real question is, do they really embrace western beliefs? I mean in general, not just on freedom of speech. It seems that they don�t. Looking at these pictures how can I believe that these people love the west? I'd really suggest they move back to their homelands of they have such a problem with Europe. There are many developed nations outside the west, such as UAE and Saudi Arabia.

Then there are also Muslims in America. Muslims in America to my knowledge to participate in such radical protests. The usual Muslim in America is upper middle class and doesn�t have a problem with the west.

This cartoon stuff has really forced me to reexamine my belief on Muslims (in Europe) and the west. I really thought that the ones in the west were not like the ones in the middle east, and that even the ones in the middle east were not all terrorists or had terrorist sympathies. But, and I ask a Muslim, how can I continue to believe that when i see these pictures?

Honestly, I�m, quite shocked at this.

well since they are citizens (many are) in the "West" then they are part of the West.

no need for word-tricks azimuth

loknar is right

these pictures can not be justified

but west must also consider the real time conditions made these radicals emerge. Action brings reaction

this much is too much though

of course cebeci I agree with you to a certain extent. But i believe overall, these terrorists that developed (in part due to the west) would have developed anyway even if we weren�t there.

The real goal of terrorists is to unite the Islamic world under a Caliph based on extreme Islam. The reason they are pointed against the west is because the west was always the biggest hindrance. If the west wasn�t there they�d be doing it against their own governments.

iam not playing with anything, they are Westerners (living in the west) since they took the citizenship.

just wanted to clear that.

about the pictures i think they are too much and not acceptable.

maybe they are saying such things to show that "freedom of speach" like this could offend some Europeans. so they are practing it?

anyway still not acceptable , and signs like this shows ignorance since those people are in Europe too so the holocaust they are talking about will include them too.

*BURPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP*

Stop acting like a fairy and vote for the far right, instead of trying to justify it like a poof

 I am as angry at the fact these Muslims live in the west, yet seem to be totally unwilling to embrace our culture and values. These people are obviously not representative of all Muslims, but some of them live in my country but act like they are still back in their country of origin.

 I believe if you live in a country you must adapt to its culture and way of life, I tire of people like those in the photos living here in the west but not caring one iota for us or the country they now reside in.

 That is unacceptable as is the sick message they are sending, these kind of *protests* should be stopped immediately, its outrageous that they can say "behead those who insult Islam" yet if I in my own country say anything remotely negative about a Muslim or Islam in general i'd be likely to be arrested.

Those pics, do not represent the majority of muslims leaving in the West.Those in the pics should be deported back to their countries.

I agree, every community has it's radical fringe.

The KKK and Neo-Nazis don't represent America.

Originally posted by sdavidr Originally posted by ArmenianSurvival      I agree with Mila due to the simple fact that those pictures are not representative of the majority of Muslims. Most Muslims in the west generally embrace it as best as they can. Yes, but the cartoonist represent the danish people or the western countries , no?

By your analogy with the cartoonist, they're just expressing freedom of speech. Personally I think punishing people who transgress the boundaries is fine, as the ones above are - the death penalty - umm, that's a bit harsh, but lock up would be alright. I guess the cartoonist could also come under the category of incitement - inciting people to riot. It's probably a good analogy, though one was provocative, the other reactionary.

Originally posted by Komnenos Originally posted by sdavidr Originally posted by ArmenianSurvival      I agree with Mila due to the simple fact that those pictures are not representative of the majority of Muslims. Most Muslims in the west generally embrace it as best as they can. Yes, but the cartoonist represent the danish people or the western countries , no? No they don't. Most western people in Western countries have expressed their disgust about the tasteless and xenophobic content of the cartoons.

After proclaiming of boycott many western country's published that cartoon too wich actually means they backing denmark and that cartoonist. I also havent heard any negative tone toward that cartoon or cartoonist so far in this forum too except they putting Danish flag in their sigs or showing their country as denmark.

So afterall that cartoonist did represent the west europe.

Isnt it rediculous Kommenos?

Afterall what will the excuse may be of an insult in AE against the laws of AE since "they" are alll so pro freedom of express supporters? INsult, disrespect becomes to belong into the branch of freedom of express, eh? Big probs for ae then...

Originally posted by Voyager Originally posted by DayI No they don't. Most western people in Western countries have expressed their disgust about the tasteless and xenophobic content of the cartoons. I havent heard that so far... After proclaiming of boycott many western country's published that cartoon too wich actually means they backing denmark and that cartoonist. I also havent heard any negative tone toward that cartoon or cartoonist so far in this forum too except they putting Danish flag in their sigs or showing their country as denmark. Isnt it rediculous Kommenos? And Turkey wants to join the EU... No, it is not ridiculous. The solidarity is not about the content of the cartoons but instead for the freedom of expression.

I dont give a f**k about entration of Turkey to eu...

How should i back, sympathyze that motherf**ker if his gang did blow some buildings, people up in Turkey?

I heard many Muslims go on streets and blaimed bin laden, but here i speak of only here i havent saw any mod or a member who's find those cartoons disrespectfull or insulting otherones religion. Instead of that they backed denmark with setting their flags on their sigs and profiles and claimed they defend "expression of freedom"...

So:

Voyaer has a point, how do I know this isn�t the opinion of all Muslims"? That statement is repeated over and over again as if to brainwash us.

No I really don�t believe it represents all Muslims overall, but I wonder what faction of Muslims it represents in Europe. Supposedly protests have average common people, if the average Muslim in Europe is capable of making such signs I�d be worried.

The bottom line is that they have the right to say these tings and show such signs . Of course, the opinion of westerners is swayed by these actions and frankly, it doesn�t make Islam look good. I don�t believe I should have to say to my self "well they don�t represent all Muslims" when I see Thedor van Gogh shot in the Netherlands, or I see signs that say "The real holocaust is coming" . I think it is up to the Muslim community to set a good example, its not my job to remember that not all of them are like that.

They are Western citizens, they should act as such.

Great article, Dawn. Would like to quote a few paragraphs from it:

'The Muslim world needs to do something to appease the West. Since Ayatullah Khomeini declared a death sentence against Salman Rushdie for how he depicted Muhammad in his book The Satanic Verses, Islamic radicals have been essentially threatening the free discussion of their religion and politics in the West. Rushdie escaped with his life. But Pim Fortuyn, a Dutch politician who stood up against Muslim immigrant hostility to equality for women and gays, was murdered on the street. Theo van Gogh, a Dutch filmmaker who offended strict Muslims, was killed thereafter. Several other Dutch politicians who have dared to criticize the intolerance of many Muslims live with police protection.'

This is a point that I have made several times on different threads. I haven't gotten any feedback from any of the Muslim forumers here ono that.

'Muslim leaders say the cartoons are not just offensive. They're blasphemy--the mother of all offenses. That's because Islam forbids any visual depiction of the Prophet, even benign ones. Should non-Muslims respect this taboo? I see no reason why. You can respect a religion without honoring its taboos. I eat pork, and I'm not an anti-Semite. As a Catholic, I don't expect atheists to genuflect before an altar. If violating a taboo is necessary to illustrate a political point, then the call is an easy one. Freedom means learning to deal with being offended.'

'Blasphemy, after all, is commonplace in the West. In America, Christians have become accustomed to artists' offending their religious symbols. They can protest, and cut off public funding--but the right of the individual to say or depict offensive messages or symbols is not really in dispute. Blasphemy, moreover, is common in the Muslim world, and sanctioned by Arab governments. The Arab media run cartoons depicting Jews and the symbols of the Jewish faith with imagery indistinguishable from that used in the Third Reich. But I have yet to see Jews or Israelis threaten the lives of Muslims because of it.'

'And there is, of course, the other blasphemy. It occurred on Sept. 11, 2001, when fanatics murdered thousands of innocents in the name of Islam. Surely, nothing could be more blasphemous. So where were the Muslim boycotts of Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan after that horrifying event? Since 9/11 mosques have been bombed in Iraq by Islamic terrorists. Where was the rioting condemning attacks on the holiest of shrines? These double standards reveal something quite clear: this call for "sensitivity" is primarily a cover for intolerance of others and intimidation of free people.'

'Yes, there's no reason to offend people of any faith arbitrarily. We owe all faiths respect. But the Danish cartoons were not arbitrarily offensive. They were designed to reveal Islamic intolerance--and they have now done so, in abundance. The West's principles are clear enough. Tolerance? Yes. Faith? Absolutely. Freedom of speech? Nonnegotiable.'

I ended up almost citing the entire article ...

The Europeans were not the first to use violence in this affair to express themselves.  You can't have freedom of speech with the fear that if you really offend someone they'll kill you.

What you said just speaks for itself loud and clear. No discussion is needed with someone who condones murder just because another person speaks up against his religion.

Is this what Islam teaches you? Very scary ...

That's ridiculous, the Syrians, Saudis, Iranians, and Libyans have pulled their ambassadors, there was a boycott, and demonstrations.  The message was being sent loud and clear before fires were started.

Now that is a statement full of truth

I strongly resent the comments on those placards, but am not alarmed since they do not by far represent the body of muslims in britian. since the faces of the ring leaders are obvious to the news junkies in britian. The people doing the shouting may be of low IQ but the organisers certainly are not and appearences can be deceptive.

They are well organised and their message in all its coarse bruteness and vulgarity has a very subtle message. It is a well constructed message that is political and not from religious perspective. If you look beyond the placards what they are awaiting is the opportunity to shout hypocricy, and denounce the west's claim to freedom of speech. Since they are obviously practicing it and they have taken the initiative by challenging the govt to arrest them. So to say why were you so keen to define the boundaries on freedom of speech now.

To use the old english idiomatic proverb: You cant have your cake and eat it too. i.e something has to give.

Problem is, this world is becoming smaller and smaller. I guess we need to elaborate some way to pacifically coexist, and find a way to solve conflicts of values and rights

I agree, but does that give non muslims the right to make fun of a religion ? I think the answer is yes, but it is morally wrong and a sign of non respect.

Religions are too sensitive, people believe in this stuff too much. It is in fact, as Karl Marx said it, opium for the people.

Cheers. 

I agree with this but there are civilzed ways to criticise religion and the bafoon way. Instead of serious arguments and ideas, they went with the idiotic way which resulting in provocating instead of criticising.

These pictures were printed in Sept-Oct of 2005, reprinting them now in early 2006 is just to sell more paper and gaining in publicity - the Benetton way: "every publicity is good publicity". I am sure they did not expect these consequences.

Cheers.

I must say, I am absolutely stunned. I thought, what was a protest, has now degraded into pure hate. In any protest, or boycott, this is unacceptable. Yes they have the freedom to say people who insult Islam should be beheaded.

But, the fact remains, why are they even in Europe? From these pictures I can only come to the conclusion that they hate Europe and if anybody insults Islam they want gallons of human blood on their hands.

[QUOTE]

Most Muslims in Europe left their countries looking for work, often as cheep labor force. Hence, we find many Turks in Germany, North Africans in France and Spain, Moroccans in Belgium/Nethetlands, Pakistanis in England...

There is often a historical "bond" between the muslims that emigrated and their host countries: Colonialism. North Africans who were under French and in Spanish domination often found jobs in these countries (especially France) after WWII as workforce was needed to rebuild Europe. The second french wage occured during the 70's and the wonderfull economic growth known as the "30 Glorieuses".

[QUOTE]

I always believed "no not all Muslims are like that..." but looking at this how the hell can I still believe that? If I was a Muslim I'd worry allot about he reputation of my religion and not go around with such signs as "prepare for the real holocaust".

[QUOTE]

Well, this is interesting. When you start to believe that "All X are like that" that is the begining of GENERALIZATION, which leads to racism. All muslims are not all like "that", all jews are not ultra orthodox colonialists, all americans are not to blame for what the GVT's international blunders, all americans are not all imperialist p*gs... and so on. Generalization is wrong and it is the "easy" way to spread wrong ideas to people.

[QUOTE]

The real question is, do they really embrace western beliefs? I mean in general, not just on freedom of speech. It seems that they don�t. Looking at these pictures how can I believe that these people love the west? I'd really suggest they move back to their homelands of they have such a problem with Europe. There are many developed nations outside the west, such as UAE and Saudi Arabia.

[QUOTE]

You have to take into consideration the education level of some people. Many muslims that came to Europe were not scholars, they were often poor people from the country side with mentalities close to the middle ages. Many (the majority maybe) brought these beliefs with them and eventhough their children went to western schools, the parents often transmit their "tradional" values at home. This is not a bad thing, but the children have to reflect [THEMSELFS] on what aspects to keep from their traditions and which are not compatible with the west.

[QUOTE]

Then there are also Muslims in America. Muslims in America to my knowledge to participate in such radical protests. The usual Muslim in America is upper middle class and doesn�t have a problem with the west.

[QUOTE]

Can't speak about muslims in the USA. I don't really know anything about them (except the Nation of Islam sect).

[QUOTE]

This cartoon stuff has really forced me to reexamine my belief on Muslims (in Europe) and the west. I really thought that the ones in the west were not like the ones in the middle east, and that even the ones in the middle east were not all terrorists or had terrorist sympathies. But, and I ask a Muslim, how can I continue to believe that when i see these pictures?

How many muslism do you actually know ?

Danish people being kicked out from Muslim countries, their embassies being burned to the ground, their products boycotted... Those consequences.

This above whas taken in Turkey in a protest against those cartoon publisher country's, on the pankart it stood "Jezus christ ashamed of you"

Second pic is a one from beirout (lebannon) this imam try's to calm down protesting people.

But those pictures you cant see in western newspapers well the ones who's full of hatred. 

There is often a historical "bond" between the muslims that emigrated and their host countries: Colonialism.

That is  true, except Turks. Infact germans is most popular nation in Turkey.

Most probably that past  also play some role.

 Maju, you're incredible, why are you always trying to interfere with what's obvious.

I wrote "there is OFTEN..." not always.

By the way, you forgot about the Netherlands and the immigrant whose origins are from Surinam and Indonesia in your examples of "correct" examples.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2a/NetherlandsEmpire.png">

Gotta get back to work.

Cheers.