Evolution and Monotheism

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Originally posted by Maziar Darwin's theory may not be perfect, but it is more logical and acceptable than believing in Adam and Eve myth or God has created the univers befor 6000 years in only 6 days. Maziar, I thought you were an ex-muslim. Without looking up the exact words, the Qu'ran says: The universe was created in 6 days, but a day unto Allah is like 50000 years unto man. The number of years changes in different parts of the Qu'ran to emphise that the number of years is not important, mearly that it is a very long time, aeons. Quite signifcantly longer than 6000 years. Surely the rotation of the earth, or the earth about the sun is a silly way of measuring time, when you talking about the creation of the entire universe!

Yes my friend i know that, but here i mean religions generaly, also christianity included. And yes i am an ex-moslem.

Edited by Maziar

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Originally posted by barish Originally posted by Omar al Hashim What I don't understand, is what the problem with evolution is. How does evolution have any affect on anyones religous beliefs regardless of whether they are muslim, christian, hindu etc. The way I understand it, is that because it exists, God must have meant it to exist. You mean Adam existed, but he was looking like a monkey? The difference between man and ape being cognative thought and intelligence. Why not? In fact if you remove intellegence from humans, we pretty much are monkeys.

Not monkeys (that are another branch of primates) but great apes. But for the rest you are right.

Of course this means if an Ape is a Librarian and a senior faculty member in a certain university, he would count as a man.

This raises a most interesting question. There are no ape librarians obviously but there are apes, specially chimpanzees and bonobos, our closest cousins, that have shown rather surprising intelectual abilities. I read once of a chimp that had been rated of a non-verbal IQ of 80, which is well below human average but above some of our species.

Verbal abilities are surely another specific trait of humankind: Leakey already compared a human and a chimp brain to conclude that it's not just overall size but that there are two main regions of huma brain that are specially overdeveloped: frontal and lateral lobes, the ones in charge of cognitive though and comunication. It seems that our communicative ability, that allows us to exchange knowledge and to organize cooperative effort, is a very important though often underrated human ability.

Originally posted by Maju Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Of course this means if an Ape is a Librarian and a senior faculty member in a certain university, he would count as a man. This raises a most interesting question. There are no ape librarians obviously

Are you casting slurs on my avatar?

And sorry, Omar, while I personally appreciate your remark, if you go around calling the Librarian a man (as opposed to an ex-man) you are likely to have trouble reconnecting your head to your neck

Edited by gcle2003

Originally posted by Cezar Originally posted by Omar al Hashim In Islam I can't see any problem, the Qu'ran has plenty of scientific facts in it and everyone has turned out to be correct. I consider Evolution to be one of these, although Maziar in the idoletry thread seems to disagree. Where can I find a copy of the Qu'ran? I would like to see for myself how "scientific" it is. Is there a site where I could read the Qu'ran?  I really doubt that it has plenty of "scientific facts". I think it's as full as the Bible (OT, NT, whatever). Why are the islamic fundamentalists not posting? Their christian counterparts seem to be doing it.

This looks like a good site, it has three english translations for reference
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/

This is a site which links to many Islam and science type sites, I don't know how many are good or not.
http://www.ummah.net/directory/menu/science.html

This one looks Ok, its only on embryology though:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Aegean/6377/Embryonic.html

ADDITION: This site was posted in another thread:
http://www.answering-christianity.com/sci_quran.htm


Edited by Omar al Hashim

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Originally posted by gcle2003 Originally posted by Maju Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Of course this means if an Ape is a Librarian and a senior faculty member in a certain university, he would count as a man. This raises a most interesting question. There are no ape librarians obviously Are you casting slurs on my avatar? And sorry, Omar, while I personally appreciate your remark, if you go around calling the Librarian a man (as opposed to an ex-man) you are likely to have trouble reconnecting your head to your neck I love your avatar. Although I can't recall an incident where anyone called the Librarian a man, most of the head reconnection incidents involve monkeys.

Of course that is more common. I'm just very careful about whom I meet when I'm wandering around the little piece of L-space that my cellar has turned into.

Thanks for the links Omar. I must admit that I like Quran style rather than the Bible's. But that doesn't make it different. It's better written IMO and that's about all. Sorry I'm not getting any faith from it. To take a few words from whatever holy book and state that they are congruent with some scientific theory is pure interpretation. I could quote both the Quran and the Bible and consider the words as being at least hilarious. Keep your faith as long as you don't feel like hurting people because of it.

*BTW what happened to Iblis?

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim What I don't understand, is what the problem with evolution is. How does evolution have any affect on anyones religous beliefs regardless of whether they are muslim, christian, hindu etc. The way I understand it, is that because it exists, God must have meant it to exist.

Omar, for once I must agree with you.  I have often wondered this same thing.  I've always thought that, if evolution does exist, then it is a process that God uses for his purposes.  I don't know why it has become a science versus religion battle.  Proving the existance of evolution (I doubt the scientists have come even close to figuring it out, if exists at all) does not mean that God does not exist.  It simply means that we now know a method he has used to create the life forms we see today.  Of course, I am speaking from a christian standpoint.

 

Edited by R_AK47

Evolution theory is just that, a THEORY.

Charles Darwin was a rasist. He claimed that the white race is higher then all othersand that all other races are the inbetween of Human's and Ape's. It led to evil ideologies such as Nazism and Fasism.

The missing link has yet to be found.

Below is a statement by an evolutionist:

A major problem in proving the theory has been the fossil record; the imprints of vanished species preserved in the Earth's geological formations. This record has never revealed traces of Darwin's hypothetical intermediate variants - instead species appear and disappear abruptly, and this anomaly has fueled the creationist argument that each species was created by God.

Mark Czarnecki, "The Revival of the Creationist Crusade", MacLean's, January 19, 1981, p. 56.

The following is by a creationist:

Life Emerged on Earth Suddenly and in Complex Forms

When terrestrial strata and the fossil record are examined, it is to be seen that all living organisms appeared simultaneously. The oldest stratum of the earth in which fossils of living creatures have been found is that of the Cambrian, which has an estimated age of 500-550 million years.

The living creatures found in the strata belonging to the Cambrian period emerged all of a sudden in the fossil record-there are no pre-existing ancestors. The fossils found in Cambrian rocks belonged to snails, trilobites, sponges, earthworms, jellyfish, sea hedgehogs, and other complex invertebrates. This wide mosaic of living organisms made up of such a great number of complex creatures emerged so suddenly that this miraculous event is referred to as the "Cambrian Explosion" in geological literature.

Most of the creatures in this layer have complex systems have complex systems and advanced structures, such as eyes, gills, and circulatory systems, exactly the same as those in modern specimens. For instance, the double-lensed, combed eye structure of trilobites is a wonder of design. David Raup, a professor of geology in Harvard, Rochester, and Chicago Universities, says: "the trilobites 450 million years ago used an optimal design which would require a well trained and imaginative optical engineer to develop today".28

These complex invertebrates emerged suddenly and completely without having any link or any transitional form between them and the unicellular organisms, which were the only life forms on earth prior to them.

http://www.evolutiondeceit.com/chapter5.php

Originally posted by OSMANLI Evolution theory is just that, a THEORY.

That's it: it is a scientific theory and not just the babbling of a monk in his hallucination.

Charles Darwin was a rasist. He claimed that the white race is higher then all othersand that all other races are the inbetween of Human's and Ape's. It led to evil ideologies such as Nazism and Fasism.

Learn before you talk.

So called "Social-Darwinism" and racism pre-date Darwin. You're mixing apples with elephants.

The missing link has yet to be found.

Hundreds of "mising links" have been found.

Genetics allows us to prescind largely of fossils anyhow.

Below is a statement by an evolutionist: A major problem in proving the theory has been the fossil record; the imprints of vanished species preserved in the Earth's geological formations. This record has never revealed traces of Darwin's hypothetical intermediate variants - instead species appear and disappear abruptly, and this anomaly has fueled the creationist argument that each species was created by God. Mark Czarnecki, "The Revival of the Creationist Crusade", MacLean's, January 19, 1981, p. 56.

As I say, with genetics you can skip all that.

Also, we know two things now:
a/ evolution islargely puntuated: it doesn't happene gradually but by sudden jumps
b/ most fossils just can't be found. It's a miracle that we can see some of them

The following is by a creationist: Life Emerged on Earth Suddenly and in Complex Forms When terrestrial strata and the fossil record are examined, it is to be seen that all living organisms appeared simultaneously. The oldest stratum of the earth in which fossils of living creatures have been found is that of the Cambrian, which has an estimated age of 500-550 million years. The living creatures found in the strata belonging to the Cambrian period emerged all of a sudden in the fossil record-there are no pre-existing ancestors. The fossils found in Cambrian rocks belonged to snails, trilobites, sponges, earthworms, jellyfish, sea hedgehogs, and other complex invertebrates. This wide mosaic of living organisms made up of such a great number of complex creatures emerged so suddenly that this miraculous event is referred to as the "Cambrian Explosion" in geological literature. Most of the creatures in this layer have complex systems have complex systems and advanced structures, such as eyes, gills, and circulatory systems, exactly the same as those in modern specimens. For instance, the double-lensed, combed eye structure of trilobites is a wonder of design. David Raup, a professor of geology in Harvard, Rochester, and Chicago Universities, says: "the trilobites 450 million years ago used an optimal design which would require a well trained and imaginative optical engineer to develop today".28 These complex invertebrates emerged suddenly and completely without having any link or any transitional form between them and the unicellular organisms, which were the only life forms on earth prior to them. http://www.evolutiondeceit.com/chapter5.php

So what?

It wasn't that way but, if it was that way, what? It is still totally different than how it's written in Genesis.

Originally posted by Maju Also, we know two things now: a/ evolution islargely puntuated: it doesn't happene gradually but by sudden jumps

Gradual speciation cannot account for historical events. Rectangular speciation doesnt make any sense to me - you can prove anything theoretically.

b/ most fossils just can't be found. It's a miracle that we can see some of them

 

I dont see why. It's too coincidental that you dont find any intermediate species fossils, only distinct ones. 

Edited by TeldeIndus