Author |
Share Topic Topic Search Topic Options
|
Omar al Hashim
King
Suspended
Joined: 05-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5697
|
Topic: Evolution and Monotheism Posted: 28-Jan-2006 at 23:43 |
What I don't understand, is what the problem with evolution is. How
does evolution have any affect on anyones religous beliefs regardless
of whether they are muslim, christian, hindu etc.
The way I understand it, is that because it exists, God must have meant it to exist.
|
|
Maju
King
Joined: 14-Jul-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6565
|
Posted: 29-Jan-2006 at 00:20 |
Some sects or even individuals believe that their holy book must be
taken to the letter, particularly some Protestant groups. And in the
Bible (OT, Genesis) there is a depiction of the creation that doesn't
fit with evolutionary biology however you look at it (birds "are
created" before lizards, for instance). They see a problem with that
and, instead of adopting a more flexible approach to their book, as
other correligionaries do, they prefer to adopt an intrasigent attitude
on science.
Sociologically it's mostly a problem in the USA but there's people
everywhere that prefer to see error in scientists (humans) than in such
ancient mythological text (God).
|
NO GOD, NO MASTER!
|
|
Periander
Knight
Joined: 25-Jan-2006
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 77
|
Posted: 29-Jan-2006 at 01:42 |
(I hope this works now, I just lost a post when the database went borked.)
Maju, I agree.
The Orthodox Church views the Bible as infallible as regards its Ethical and Dogmatical stance, however, when it comes to some points of Science and/or Historical accuracy (such as the date of a battle etc.), the Bible can and does err (cf. human element as well as Inspiration = Synergy).
I am not certain how well this sits with the Roman Catholic Church, Anglicanism or even with the Judaic and Islamic Traditions.
Sociologically, although less vociferous, such stances as displayed by the Christian Right (for example) in the US not only deny certain truths that both Science and History may present, but they end up doing more damage to their cause than good. Such sentiments, unfortunately, can be found even within some Churches who have already made the above distinction...
|
|
Omar al Hashim
King
Suspended
Joined: 05-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5697
|
Posted: 29-Jan-2006 at 03:07 |
In Islam I can't see any problem, the Qu'ran has plenty of scientific
facts in it and everyone has turned out to be correct. I consider
Evolution to be one of these, although Maziar in the idoletry thread
seems to disagree.
Edited by Omar al Hashim
|
|
Maju
King
Joined: 14-Jul-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6565
|
Posted: 29-Jan-2006 at 03:20 |
(The database borks daily at about 6:00 GMT)
In this case I think the hierarchies are being a moderating force in
all hierarchical churches, as they are not acting dogmatically
regarding to science (now - they did in the past, as we all know).
Instead in the acephallous Protestant enviroment, where the Bible is
seen as only guide, many people tend to be acritical with the content
of the text and favors a rigid interpretation.
Of course, there are also Catholic fundamentalists and many many
moderate and open minded protestants but, in the USA, the role of
tele-preachers of more than dubious intent has become a force in
itself, that is not controlled by anything but probably money and
power.
This doesn't mean that hierarchical churches are inmune to that. It
probably depends on other factors, such as culture and public opinion -
though, of course, hierarchies are less prone to change easily.
In any case it is a very worrying trend. I just read yesterday that
only 48% of Britons believe that the theory of evolution is correct and
the percentage of creationists was surprisingly high for Europe: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4648598.stm
|
NO GOD, NO MASTER!
|
|
Maju
King
Joined: 14-Jul-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6565
|
Posted: 29-Jan-2006 at 03:26 |
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim
In Islam I can't see any problem, the Qu'ran has plenty of scientific
facts in it and everyone has turned out to be correct. I consider
Evolution to be one of these, although Maizar in the idoletry thread
seems to disagree.
|
But Quran doesn't have a story telling how God created evrything. You
have to go to the Jewish Old Testament for that (as I understand that
the Bible is accepted in Islam as holy book). What saves you probably
is that you put all the emphasis in the Quran and not the Bible. Most
Christians are saved from literalism because the put emphasis in the
New Testament and not in the Old (the Jewish text) but many Protestant
sects are truly Judaizing, in
the sense that they put at least as much emphasis in the pre-Christian
texts (OT) as in the Christian ones (NT). And even in this sense,
surely Jews are more flexible and rationalist than some Protestant
sects.
|
NO GOD, NO MASTER!
|
|
Periander
Knight
Joined: 25-Jan-2006
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 77
|
Posted: 29-Jan-2006 at 04:03 |
When a Christian reads the Old Testament literally, it is a recipe for disaster. The point is to read it typologically (prefigurements in the Old towards the New), it saves a lot hassle, especially when it comes to scenes of murder, pillage and battle. The Judaising element that you refer to, Maju, and in no way am I referring to Jews themselves here, leads to off-the-track interpretations... even though it is meant to be literal (cf. some sects who wish to bring on the "Anti-Christ" by becoming part of the pro-Israel lobby.
As regards the Evolution survey in your previous post, perhaps the question is put forth too simplistically. I am sure that many more would have answered "yes" to evolution if the question contained a little consideration for the divinity (I hope you understand what I am getting at here).
Indeed, the Church Hierarchy is less prone to change, especially when one considers dogmatical presuppositions. When it comes to Science, many are more open-minded than both you or I would think. Truth is, that there are some of the hierarchy who are as equally obstinate. None would differ on Creation per se, but many would differ on its processes, whether it be with regards to time, sequence of events - chicken or egg considerations- and other such things.
NB. Thanks for the tip re the database.
|
|
Leonardo
General
Joined: 13-Jan-2006
Location: Italy
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 778
|
Posted: 29-Jan-2006 at 04:28 |
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim
In Islam I can't see any problem, the Qu'ran has plenty of scientific facts in it and everyone has turned out to be correct. I consider Evolution to be one of these, although Maziar in the idoletry thread seems to disagree. |
This guy, Harun Yahya, preaches against evolution:
http://www.evolutiondeceit.com/
I wonder how popular are his views among muslim believers ...
Edited by Leonardo
|
|
Lmprs
Arch Duke
Joined: 30-Dec-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1869
|
Posted: 29-Jan-2006 at 06:46 |
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim
What I don't understand, is what the problem with evolution is. How does evolution have any affect on anyones religous beliefs regardless of whether they are muslim, christian, hindu etc. The way I understand it, is that because it exists, God must have meant it to exist. |
You mean Adam existed, but he was looking like a monkey?
|
|
Periander
Knight
Joined: 25-Jan-2006
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 77
|
Posted: 29-Jan-2006 at 07:00 |
Hello barish,
I don't know why, but each time I encounter the classic Evolution vs Creation argument, the Adam is an ape question is posited.
Some of the Church hierarchy have stated that through divine providence, after having allowed Creation to mature slowly, the divinity "steps in" and gives the most able of the human-ish creature its present form, along with the soul and intellect.
One more thing, Adam in Hebrew (unless a Hebrew scholar can rebuff this) is not only a name for a man, it also is the name for Man.
|
|
gcle2003
King
Suspended
Joined: 06-Dec-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7035
|
Posted: 29-Jan-2006 at 08:01 |
You have to rather careful in saying things like 'the theory of evolution is correct' (or 'wrong' for that matter) since there are several theories of evolution (Lamark, Lysenko, 'punctuated', 'gestalt'....) many of which are wrong, probably all of which will be proven wrong eventually, since they are scientific theories.
The contrast between scientific theories of evolution and stuff like creationism and ID is that the latter are not testable and therefore totally useless to any attempt to understand the universe.
|
|
Maju
King
Joined: 14-Jul-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6565
|
Posted: 29-Jan-2006 at 10:16 |
Originally posted by Leonardo
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim
In Islam I can't see any
problem, the Qu'ran has plenty of scientific facts in it and everyone
has turned out to be correct. I consider Evolution to be one of these,
although Maziar in the idoletry thread seems to disagree. |
This guy, Harun Yahya, preaches against evolution:
http://www.evolutiondeceit.com/
I wonder how popular are his views among muslim believers ...
|
Muslims against Evolution - LOL! The Bush camarilla is making friends quickly.
|
NO GOD, NO MASTER!
|
|
Maju
King
Joined: 14-Jul-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6565
|
Posted: 29-Jan-2006 at 10:24 |
Originally posted by barish
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim
What I don't understand, is what
the problem with evolution is. How does evolution have any affect on
anyones religous beliefs regardless of whether they are muslim,
christian, hindu etc. The way I understand it, is that because it
exists, God must have meant it to exist. |
You mean Adam existed, but he was looking like a monkey?
|
Who cares a bout Adam? It's just a legend. Smart "Abrahmanics" read it
loosely in contrast with scientific facts, while fundamentalists of all
sects prefer to read it word by word.
We all look like monkeys, we like it or not - though a more adequate
word is ape (monkeys have tail). What's the problem with it if that's
how actually we were "created"? Are you challenging God because "he"
let evolution/Nature to do its job? It doesn't seem a pious attitude to
me.
|
NO GOD, NO MASTER!
|
|
Paul
General
AE Immoderator
Joined: 21-Aug-2004
Location: Hyperborea
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 952
|
Posted: 29-Jan-2006 at 15:21 |
Originally posted by gcle2003
You have to rather careful in saying things like 'the theory of evolution is correct' (or 'wrong' for that matter) since there are several theories of evolution (Lamark, Lysenko, 'punctuated', 'gestalt'....) many of which are wrong, probably all of which will be proven wrong eventually, since they are scientific theories.
The contrast between scientific theories of evolution and stuff like creationism and ID is that the latter are not testable and therefore totally useless to any attempt to understand the universe.
|
Ah Lysenko evolution, that brings back memories... Giraffe wanting to stretch their necks.
In science class at school we were taught this theory instead of Darwin. Or rather as what Darwin really meant to say. Fortunately we we're sent to gulags if we disagreed. However shows the ILEA really was controlled from Moscow as everyone suspected.
Edited by Paul
|
|
|
Periander
Knight
Joined: 25-Jan-2006
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 77
|
Posted: 29-Jan-2006 at 15:25 |
gcle2003, good point. Then there are the problems of missing links etc. But I doubt anyone can really claim today, that the Earth is only 7,000 years old.
|
|
Cywr
King
Retired AE Moderator
Joined: 03-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6003
|
Posted: 29-Jan-2006 at 17:21 |
Amoungst christians, it seems to me it is protties who have the biggest issues with Evolution.
|
Arrrgh!!"
|
|
Maziar
Chieftain
Arteshbod
Joined: 06-Nov-2005
Location: Germany
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1155
|
Posted: 29-Jan-2006 at 17:52 |
Homo erectus, our ancestore, dated befor 1.7 million and 300,000 years
Edited by Maziar
|
|
Maziar
Chieftain
Arteshbod
Joined: 06-Nov-2005
Location: Germany
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1155
|
Posted: 29-Jan-2006 at 17:56 |
Darwin's theory may not be perfect, but it is more logical and acceptable than believing in Adam and Eve myth or God has created the univers befor 6000 years in only 6 days.
|
|
Omar al Hashim
King
Suspended
Joined: 05-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5697
|
Posted: 29-Jan-2006 at 23:27 |
Originally posted by Maziar
Darwin's theory may not be perfect, but it is more logical and
acceptable than believing in Adam and Eve myth or God has created the
univers befor 6000 years in only 6 days.
|
Maziar, I thought you were an ex-muslim. Without looking up the exact words, the Qu'ran says:
The universe was created in 6 days, but a day unto Allah is like 50000 years unto man.
The number of years changes in different parts of the Qu'ran to emphise
that the number of years is not important, mearly that it is a very
long time, aeons.
Quite signifcantly longer than 6000 years.
Surely the rotation of the earth, or the earth about the sun is a silly
way of measuring time, when you talking about the creation of the
entire universe!
|
|
Omar al Hashim
King
Suspended
Joined: 05-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5697
|
Posted: 29-Jan-2006 at 23:31 |
Originally posted by barish
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim
What I don't understand, is what
the problem with evolution is. How does evolution have any affect on
anyones religous beliefs regardless of whether they are muslim,
christian, hindu etc. The way I understand it, is that because it
exists, God must have meant it to exist. |
You mean Adam existed, but he was looking like a monkey?
|
The difference between man and ape being cognative thought and
intelligence. Why not? In fact if you remove intellegence from humans,
we pretty much are monkeys.
Of course this means if an Ape is a Librarian and a senior faculty member in a certain university, he would count as a man.
|
|