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TheDiplomat
Arch Duke
Retired AE Moderator
Joined: 09-Aug-2004
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Posts: 1988
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Topic: Who was in charge of the Armenian Genocide? Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 09:33 |
Well Maju,
If you had ever attempted to read my posts before so heavily attacking,you would have noticed that they had nothing to do with the national discourse,but a member who is asking people to let science be their guide politely.
No word of nationalist sentiment is seen in my post,so I demand an apology for what you have written..
Let science be your guide,and write in a more civilised manner.The fact that you are a moderator means you are reuired to watch out your word more than us.
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ARDA:The best Turkish diplomat ever!
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Alkiviades
Baron
Joined: 01-Sep-2005
Location: Antarctica
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Posts: 469
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Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 09:35 |
Originally posted by Maju
I must say I am again shocked, astonished, ashamed and angry at the derivation of the discussion on what happened exactly during the Armenian Genocide to a massive barrickade to defend the honor of Turkey.
Please stop being so foolish: your nation like all others have commited crimes. And the only way to clarify which part belongs to whom is by dissapassionate and careful discussion.
In this regard I susggest all reasonable forumers to ignore the nationalist Turkish discourse and keep this topic as a rational discussion among people interested in knowing about the details and facts of the genocide.
It is a shame for this forum that when we try to discuss serious matters we are sabotaged by nationalist crap.
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Amen, Maju
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If you wanna play arrogant with me, you better have some very solid facts to back up that arrogance, or I'll tear you to pieces
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TheDiplomat
Arch Duke
Retired AE Moderator
Joined: 09-Aug-2004
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Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 09:38 |
lol...You have given up to back up your own argument for the fact that a distinguished member thought he could eradicate the opposition argument with his heavily blaming and call to ignore.
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ARDA:The best Turkish diplomat ever!
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Maju
King
Joined: 14-Jul-2005
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Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 09:42 |
In reply to the original question: the genocide was organized and
executed by the late Ottoman Government under cotrol of Enver Pasha,
who organized a military Special Organization to deal with the issue.
An estimated 1 million people were deported to other regions of the
Ottoman Empire in conditions that practically guaranteed their
extermination and under "scort" of this genocide Spacial Organization.
Many were also internated in concentration camps, where there are
disputed reports of burnings and gassings. It is estimated that about
one million Armenians died in the massacre, while many others were
forced to exile. After the takeover by the Young Turks, there were
military trials that condemned to death "in absentia" to most of the
leaders of the genocide, yet, for some reason, modern Turkey oficially
always rejects the term genocide and prefers to talk obscurely of
deaths in the midst of military turmoil.
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NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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mamikon
Sultan
Joined: 16-Jan-2006
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Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 09:44 |
What argument does the oppostion have? All you evidence that no
genocide took place is based on some Turkish historians adn Gunther
Lewy....who has been on a Turkish payroll for the past 20 years.
And dont you think its silly that it took 90 years for Turkey to open
its archives? Destroying documents must have been a full time job...
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Mortaza
Tsar
Joined: 21-Jul-2005
Location: Turkey
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Posts: 3711
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Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 09:46 |
I must say I am again shocked, astonished, ashamed and angry at the derivation of the discussion on what happened exactly during the Armenian Genocide to a massive barrickade to defend the honor of Turkey.
Please stop being so foolish: your nation like all others have commited crimes. And the only way to clarify which part belongs to whom is by dissapassionate and careful discussion.
In this regard I susggest all reasonable forumers to ignore the nationalist Turkish discourse and keep this topic as a rational discussion among people interested in knowing about the details and facts of the genocide.
It is a shame for this forum that when we try to discuss serious matters we are sabotaged by nationalist crap.
judge? yeah we have them much.
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Lmprs
Arch Duke
Joined: 30-Dec-2005
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Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 09:46 |
What Ottoman government did to Armenians during their exile was cruel.
Many Armenians starved to death, some died because of poor weather conditions.
Some were killed by Turkish, Kurdish and Armenian bandits.
But Ottomans intended to re-locate them, nothing more.
There is no document of an order to destroy Armenians.
Sorry, although it is a very sad event, I can't define it as a genocide.
1.500.000... This number is incredibly exaggerated.
And we should not forget the other people who died around that region in those years.
Edited by barish
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mamikon
Sultan
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Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 09:50 |
ummmm...yes there is
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o_irengun
Pretorian
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Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 09:51 |
Originally posted by mamikon
There are many reports by German ambassadors and government officials trying to control the trio, but couldnt. |
Are you serious.Sorry my friend.I can`t understand this.The only reason why "ottoman Empire" was joined the war was the german influence on the trio.
We are just used.untill the armenians and turks understand this we can discuss about genocide.The only reason teherefore is HATE.If we understand that we got used like loo paper ,If we can understand we were friends and brothers for 100s of years then we can speak about our friendship.
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Maziar
Chieftain
Arteshbod
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Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 09:57 |
Genocide or not genocide, what do you call 1.5 milions of human's dead? maybe crime? Is it only the name "genocide" which makes you headache? ok i won't use it.
Can anyone tell me what was the reason for Armenian geno..... sorry, the crime on Armenians?
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TheDiplomat
Arch Duke
Retired AE Moderator
Joined: 09-Aug-2004
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Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 09:57 |
Originally posted by mamikon
What argument does the oppostion have? All you evidence that no genocide took place is based on some Turkish historians adn Gunther Lewy....who has been on a Turkish payroll for the past 20 years.
And dont you think its silly that it took 90 years for Turkey to open its archives? Destroying documents must have been a full time job...
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May I invite you to stop lying..
All foreign historians are entitled to get access to archives easily.Otherwise how could there be tons of books about the Tyurkish history?I would not dare talk about what I didnt know...
Since a CIRCULAR REASOING is in question here,that is to say,some people have alredy decided the correctness of their arguments,there is no need to discuss..
This is an ethical mistake,but I can't help you guys on these for the fact that some already took up their arms
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ARDA:The best Turkish diplomat ever!
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Mortaza
Tsar
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Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 09:59 |
If there were not war(there were not when jews killed), If there were not armenian rebellions(no jews rebellion), If there were not armenians who fight under france(again no jews cooperation with enemy of germany, and I dont think there were large minority at france (like russia) at that times),would all of this armenian still die?
did ottomans have enough source to feed even themself? sarkams or dardennellas show they had not.
when they have not enough source for even feed themself, can they have enough source and power, to exile that much armenians without loss, absolutely not.(main mistake of trio, but they did this mistakes for ottomans soldiers too)
probably nothing would change jews destinity, it is not same for armenians.
did ottomans followed armenians at other country? did ottomans killed or tried to kill every armenians? after ww1 there were 600.000 armenians in anatolia.
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o_irengun
Pretorian
Joined: 05-Jan-2006
Location: Austria
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Posts: 176
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Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 09:59 |
Originally posted by Maziar
Can anyone tell me what was the reason for Armenian geno..... sorry, the crime on Armenians?
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Russia
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Guests
Guest
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Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 10:15 |
Sorry but if that `alleged genocide ` is a fact , why everyone who says it happened prefers to go mad for something happened almost a century ago but don`t present scientific facts easily to defend their point of view ?
I mean isn`t it easier to give links to internationally accepted organizations or something like that which says `armenian genocide` is real.But instead they try to pasify everyone by writing angry posts.
I am turkish and I consider myself an open minded individual.I am not nationalist and I keep every door open until one of the possibilities is proven right.So far I`ve seen hundreds of discussions about that subject on different websites and forums.But noone presented real evidence except their and some politicians opinions.Usually the attitude was like the one here , ``it happened you are an idiot if you think it did not`` That hardly proves anything.Somehow you`d have expect to see thousands of scientific evidence that easily accessible for something so `real`. I am sorry if that really happened and if I sound insensitive about it but isn`t there a law that says `innocent until proven guilty` ? Turks are not one of the most popular people around europe and I think some people prefer to accept this as a genocide way too easily.And of course there are always couple armenians to pasify anyone who question that decision.
Obviously this discussion won`t go anywhere because everyone expects what they think is absolute truth and noone will present scientific facts to prove their point.
SO Can I please ask moderators to close this thread to prevent further anger between the members of this community ?
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Maju
King
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Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 11:02 |
Originally posted by o_irengun
Originally posted by Maziar
Can anyone tell me what was the reason for Armenian geno..... sorry, the crime on Armenians?
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Russia |
Apparently, while the region later organized as Armenia was partly a
Russian conquest, when the revolution happened in Russia, Ottomans send
their troops southwards to fence off the British, while Russian army
deployed there slowly disintegrated.
Can you explain me why a nation like Russia that was inmersed in a civil war could have influenced the events of Armenia?
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NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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Maju
King
Joined: 14-Jul-2005
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Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 11:22 |
Diplomat (and others): I just want everyone to discuss reasonably and
respectfully about the facts and particularly about who was in charge
when that happened, that after all was the simple question that started
this topic.
I would prefer that discussion over the use of the term genocide would
be left outbecause it only serves to throw dirt to each other. So let's
discuss about the facts:
Fact 1: The late Ottoman government under Enver Pasha seems to have been the ultimate culprit.
Fact 2: This government organized a special military group to deal with the "Armenian problem".
Fact 3: The "Special Organization" carried the genocide/ethnic cleansing/massacre in the following way:
a) deportations in murderous conditions
b) concentration camps that have been reported to be death camps as well
c) on the ground killings
Fact 4: It is disputed the ammount of Armenians living in NE Turkey,
most sources claim that abot 2 million, while Turk sources (and only
these) claim that they were much less. In the same regard, the ammount
of Armenian victims is disputed, being the highest claimed figure of
about 1.5 million deaths.
Fact 5: images of the horror:
Source for the images (and some of the previous data): Wikipedia
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NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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Ponce de Leon
Caliph
Lonce De Peon
Joined: 11-Jan-2006
Location: United States
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Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 11:35 |
So were the Armenians decendents of the Byzantines? Maybe since the byzantines and the turks fought each other before this is just the continuation of a centuries year old battle?
BTW: Those pictures are just awful
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Voyager
Pretorian
Joined: 14-Jan-2006
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Posts: 151
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Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 11:40 |
I find it ridiculous that Turks call to the Armenian genocide (when more than a million persons were killed and expelled from their lands) a massacre and yet, they call genocide to the massacre of 10.000 Muslims in Srebenica during the Bosnian War.
Talk about double standards here.
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Iranian41ife
Arch Duke
Joined: 24-Dec-2005
Location: Tajikista
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Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 11:51 |
turkey should just take responsibility, like germany did, and move on.
germany admitted its mistake yet they have just as much pride in their country now then they did before.
i dont know what turks are afraid of, just admit the genocide, the USA admits its genocide of Native Americans, germany admits its genocide against jews and other ethnicities, and turkey should too!
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DayI
Sultan
Joined: 30-May-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2408
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Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 12:04 |
Originally posted by Maju
Diplomat (and others): I just want everyone to discuss reasonably and respectfully about the facts and particularly about who was in charge when that happened, that after all was the simple question that started this topic.
I would prefer that discussion over the use of the term genocide would be left outbecause it only serves to throw dirt to each other. So let's discuss about the facts:
Fact 1: The late Ottoman government under Enver Pasha seems to have been the ultimate culprit.
Fact 2: This government organized a special military group to deal with the "Armenian problem".
Fact 3: The "Special Organization" carried the genocide/ethnic cleansing/massacre in the following way: a) deportations in murderous conditions b) concentration camps that have been reported to be death camps as well c) on the ground killings
Fact 4: It is disputed the ammount of Armenians living in NE Turkey, most sources claim that abot 2 million, while Turk sources (and only these) claim that they were much less. In the same regard, the ammount of Armenian victims is disputed, being the highest claimed figure of about 1.5 million deaths.
Fact 5: images of the horror:
Source for the images (and some of the previous data): Wikipedia
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Do you call these Ottoman soldiers? Do they look like Ottoman soldiers, need glasses?
Be objective and dont act the wise guy out here
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