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Topic ClosedWho was in charge of the Armenian Genocide?

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TheDiplomat View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Who was in charge of the Armenian Genocide?
    Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 09:33

Well Maju,

If you had ever attempted to read my posts before so heavily attacking,you would have noticed that they had nothing to do with the national discourse,but a member who is asking people to let science be their guide politely.

No word of nationalist sentiment is seen in my post,so I demand an apology for what you have written..

Let science be your guide,and write in a more civilised manner.The fact that you are a moderator means you are reuired to watch out your word more than us.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 09:35

Originally posted by Maju

I must say I am again shocked, astonished, ashamed and angry at the derivation of the discussion on what happened exactly during the Armenian Genocide to a massive barrickade to defend the honor of Turkey.

Please stop being so foolish: your nation like all others have commited crimes. And the only way to clarify which part belongs to whom is by dissapassionate and careful discussion.

In this regard I susggest all reasonable forumers to ignore the nationalist Turkish discourse and keep this topic as a rational discussion among people interested in knowing about the details and facts of the genocide.

It is a shame for this forum that when we try to discuss serious matters we are sabotaged by nationalist crap.

Amen, Maju

If you wanna play arrogant with me, you better have some very solid facts to back up that arrogance, or I'll tear you to pieces
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 09:38

lol...You have given up to back up your own argument for the fact that a distinguished member thought he could eradicate the opposition argument with his heavily blaming and call to ignore.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 09:42
In reply to the original question: the genocide was organized and executed by the late Ottoman Government under cotrol of Enver Pasha, who organized a military Special Organization to deal with the issue. An estimated 1 million people were deported to other regions of the Ottoman Empire in conditions that practically guaranteed their extermination and under "scort" of this genocide Spacial Organization. Many were also internated in concentration camps, where there are disputed reports of burnings and gassings. It is estimated that about one million Armenians died in the massacre, while many others were forced to exile. After the takeover by the Young Turks, there were military trials that condemned to death "in absentia" to most of the leaders of the genocide, yet, for some reason, modern Turkey oficially always rejects the term genocide and prefers to talk obscurely of deaths in the midst of military turmoil. 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 09:44
What argument  does the oppostion have? All you evidence that no genocide took place is based on some Turkish historians adn Gunther Lewy....who has been on a Turkish payroll for the past 20 years.

And dont you think its silly that it took 90 years for Turkey to open its archives? Destroying documents must have been a full time job...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 09:46

I must say I am again shocked, astonished, ashamed and angry at the derivation of the discussion on what happened exactly during the Armenian Genocide to a massive barrickade to defend the honor of Turkey.

Please stop being so foolish: your nation like all others have commited crimes. And the only way to clarify which part belongs to whom is by dissapassionate and careful discussion.

In this regard I susggest all reasonable forumers to ignore the nationalist Turkish discourse and keep this topic as a rational discussion among people interested in knowing about the details and facts of the genocide.

It is a shame for this forum that when we try to discuss serious matters we are sabotaged by nationalist crap.

judge? yeah  we have them  much.


 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 09:46
What Ottoman government did to Armenians during their exile was cruel.

Many Armenians starved to death, some died because of poor weather conditions.

Some were killed by Turkish, Kurdish and Armenian bandits.

But Ottomans intended to re-locate them, nothing more.

There is no document of an order to destroy Armenians.

Sorry, although it is a very sad event, I can't define it as a genocide.

1.500.000... This number is incredibly exaggerated.

And we should not forget the other people who died around that region in those years.



Edited by barish
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 09:50
ummmm...yes there is
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 09:51

Originally posted by mamikon

There are many reports by German ambassadors and government officials trying to control the trio, but couldnt.  

  Are  you serious.Sorry my  friend.I can`t  understand  this.The  only  reason  why  "ottoman Empire"  was joined  the war  was  the  german  influence  on  the  trio.

  We  are  just used.untill  the  armenians and  turks  understand  this  we can  discuss  about genocide.The  only reason teherefore is HATE.If  we  understand  that  we  got  used  like  loo  paper ,If we can understand  we were  friends  and  brothers  for  100s  of  years then we  can  speak  about  our  friendship.

 

  

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 09:57

Genocide or not genocide, what do you call 1.5 milions of human's dead? maybe crime? Is it only the name "genocide" which makes you headache? ok i won't use it.

Can anyone tell me what was the reason for Armenian geno..... sorry, the crime on Armenians?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 09:57

Originally posted by mamikon

What argument  does the oppostion have? All you evidence that no genocide took place is based on some Turkish historians adn Gunther Lewy....who has been on a Turkish payroll for the past 20 years.

And dont you think its silly that it took 90 years for Turkey to open its archives? Destroying documents must have been a full time job...

May I invite you to stop lying..

All foreign historians are entitled to get access to archives easily.Otherwise how could there be tons of books about the Tyurkish history?I would not dare talk about what I didnt know...

Since a CIRCULAR REASOING is in question here,that is to say,some people have alredy decided the correctness of their arguments,there is no need to discuss..

This is an ethical mistake,but I can't help you guys on these for the fact that some already took up their arms

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 09:59

If  there were not war(there were not when jews killed), If  there were not armenian rebellions(no jews rebellion),  If  there  were not armenians  who  fight under france(again no jews cooperation with enemy of germany, and  I dont think there  were large minority  at france (like russia) at that times),would all of this armenian still die?

did ottomans have enough source to feed even themself? sarkams or dardennellas show they had not.

when they have not enough source  for even feed themself, can they have enough source and power, to exile that much armenians without loss,  absolutely not.(main mistake of trio, but they did this mistakes for ottomans soldiers too)

probably nothing would change jews destinity, it is not  same for armenians.

did ottomans followed armenians at other country?  did ottomans killed or tried to kill every armenians? after ww1 there were 600.000 armenians in anatolia.

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 09:59
Originally posted by Maziar

Can anyone tell me what was the reason for Armenian geno..... sorry, the crime on Armenians?

 Russia

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 10:15
Sorry but if that `alleged genocide ` is a fact , why everyone who says it happened prefers to go mad for something happened almost a century ago but don`t present scientific facts easily to defend their point of view ?

I mean isn`t it easier to give links to internationally accepted organizations or something like that which says `armenian genocide` is real.But instead they try to pasify everyone by writing angry posts.

I am turkish and I consider myself an open minded individual.I am not nationalist and I keep every door open until one of the possibilities is proven right.So far I`ve seen hundreds of discussions about that subject on different websites and forums.But noone presented real evidence except their and some politicians opinions.Usually the attitude was like the one here , ``it happened you are an idiot if you think it did not``
 That hardly proves anything.Somehow you`d have expect to see thousands of scientific evidence that easily accessible for something so `real`.
I am sorry if that really happened and if I sound insensitive about it but isn`t there a law that says `innocent until proven guilty` ? Turks are not one of the most popular people around europe and  I think some people prefer to accept this as a genocide way too easily.And of course there are always couple armenians to pasify anyone who question that decision.

Obviously this discussion won`t go anywhere because everyone expects what they think is absolute truth and noone will present scientific facts to prove their point.

SO Can I please ask moderators to close this thread to prevent further anger between the members of this community ?




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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 11:02
Originally posted by o_irengun

Originally posted by Maziar

Can anyone tell me what was the reason for Armenian geno..... sorry, the crime on Armenians?

 Russia



Apparently, while the region later organized as Armenia was partly a Russian conquest, when the revolution happened in Russia, Ottomans send their troops southwards to fence off the British, while Russian army deployed there slowly disintegrated.

Can you explain me why a nation like Russia that was inmersed in a civil war could have influenced the events of Armenia?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 11:22
Diplomat (and others): I just want everyone to discuss reasonably and respectfully about the facts and particularly about who was in charge when that happened, that after all was the simple question that started this topic.

I would prefer that discussion over the use of the term genocide would be left outbecause it only serves to throw dirt to each other. So let's discuss about the facts:

Fact 1: The late Ottoman government under Enver Pasha seems to have been the ultimate culprit.

Fact 2: This government organized a special military group to deal with the "Armenian problem".

Fact 3: The "Special Organization" carried the genocide/ethnic cleansing/massacre in the following way:
a) deportations in murderous conditions
b) concentration camps that have been reported to be death camps as well
c) on the ground killings

Fact 4: It is disputed the ammount of Armenians living in NE Turkey, most sources claim that abot 2 million, while Turk sources (and only these) claim that they were much less. In the same regard, the ammount of Armenian victims is disputed, being the highest claimed figure of about 1.5 million deaths.

Fact 5: images of the horror:











Source for the images (and some of the previous data): Wikipedia

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 11:35
So were the Armenians decendents of the Byzantines? Maybe since the byzantines and the turks fought each other before this is just the continuation of a centuries year old battle?

BTW: Those pictures are just awful
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 11:40

I find it ridiculous that Turks call to the Armenian genocide (when more than a million persons were killed and expelled from their lands) a massacre and yet, they call genocide to the massacre of 10.000 Muslims in Srebenica during the Bosnian War.

Talk about double standards here.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 11:51

turkey should just take responsibility, like germany did, and move on.

germany admitted its mistake yet they have just as much pride in their country now then they did before.

i dont know what turks are afraid of, just admit the genocide, the USA admits its genocide of Native Americans, germany admits its genocide against jews and other ethnicities, and turkey should too!

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 12:04

Originally posted by Maju

Diplomat (and others): I just want everyone to discuss reasonably and respectfully about the facts and particularly about who was in charge when that happened, that after all was the simple question that started this topic.

I would prefer that discussion over the use of the term genocide would be left outbecause it only serves to throw dirt to each other. So let's discuss about the facts:

Fact 1: The late Ottoman government under Enver Pasha seems to have been the ultimate culprit.

Fact 2: This government organized a special military group to deal with the "Armenian problem".

Fact 3: The "Special Organization" carried the genocide/ethnic cleansing/massacre in the following way:
a) deportations in murderous conditions
b) concentration camps that have been reported to be death camps as well
c) on the ground killings

Fact 4: It is disputed the ammount of Armenians living in NE Turkey, most sources claim that abot 2 million, while Turk sources (and only these) claim that they were much less. In the same regard, the ammount of Armenian victims is disputed, being the highest claimed figure of about 1.5 million deaths.

Fact 5: images of the horror:


Source for the images (and some of the previous data): Wikipedia
Do you call these Ottoman soldiers? Do they look like Ottoman soldiers, need glasses?

Be objective and dont act the wise guy out here

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