Sure you are. The Armenian genocide is well-documented and aknowledged as it was extremely massive. We have documents, various foreign officials describing it, pictures, accounts and various other proof.

I am quite certain Turks should accept it and move on, it's not like we'd call them personally responsible  for the evil-trio's slaughters. As nobody attributes the slaughters of Chinghiz Khan to todays Mongols and I don't think many connect the Germans today with Hitler or the communists today with Stalin.

Enver (the "jewish Turk" as some call him) was the mastermind behind the genocide, but the whole plan was executed by the trio of neoturk leaders, as mamikon pointed out.

Sorry but  you even call what Abdulhamit did genocide too. what type of sciencific words are this, I dont remember  any jew attacked hitler and killed a  lot people.

It is true a lot of people killed, It is false even this trio acted like hitler. Even they have not much  justification what they did, they  have  good reasons. hitler have not.

For abdulhamit, It   is complately rubish to call his act as genocide.

since armenians arent able to capture their so called "western provinces" they do it the other way, the way that the whole world are supporting them. Letting Turkey acknowledging and acceptin the so called biased lie about the armenian genocide gaves them the chance to get their "western provinces" back with support of other organisation on their back.

Firstly give youre poor armenians food instead of telling all those bull, they die of hunger...

My grand-grand father had been killed by the Armenian rebellions who were in the service of Russian Imperial Army.So I invite everyone respect the victims of each side...it is irritating..

Genocide is a very serious crime,and requires much more work than a documantery...

If there is evidence,why dont the allegators appeal to the court?

Not every death,massacere is a genocide..Calling any event as genocide spreads this crime and hence reduce the extremity of the Nazi Party.

I do not think Nazis have the copyright on Genocides. If you want a term that is not loaded, try Democide. Or you can look up a definition, like this one taken from Wiki (it's standard dictionary material btw. nothing to quarel about)

So, under that definition, what the neoturks did to the Armenians (and the Pontic Greeks and others) is definitely classified as a "genocide". In this case, we are talking about a mass-scale genocide as well, so we'd better use the term democide. Again, from wiki:

There have been democides and genocides loooooong before the relevent terms were invented. What the Mongols did in Hsi Hsia, was 100% a genocide. What they did in Khwarazmia as well. Tamerlane was perhaps the greatest democider the world has ever seen. The Seleucids (attempted to) conduct a genocide, the Romans carried out half a dozen. A hundred more cases spring in mind.

Any way you see it, what happened with the Armenians was a genocide.

Under which conditions can you classify this?May I see you expertise on the international law related with these issue?...Otherwise,reading the definition,2-3 papers and using imagination is not enough...This is called intellectual arrogantness...

In order to classify events genocide,you ''have to'' be an expert on international law,have distinguished information on geography,history,social pyschology of that period.

May I ask also how you also define the atrocities committed by the Greek(or hellas? ) army in western Turkey against the Turkish population which eventually compelled the Greek side to pay compensation?

Stop playing Turkish with me, Thediplo. We are on an internet forum, not on the UN where you can talk yourself clean (or pretend you do). We have facts here.

Slaughtering 800.000 to 1.5 million (the second number is accepted internationally, btw. but I throw in the lowest western estimation for your convenience) of a single ethnic group in order to create lebensraum for your people, and because those people (you killed) are the ones refusing to be absorbed into the dominant culture, does not take an expert in international law to define as a genocide, just some common sense.

I am refusing to go into yet another debacle on the alleged "crimes" of the Greek occupation forces in western Asia Minor, because then I'd have to bring up Ataturks massacres and that would lead us to another "your people killed more" type of silly debates. This is about the Armenian genocide, nothing else.

The fact that we are on an internet forum does not mean that you can insult any other nation so easily,my Greek fellower.

If you have an argument,you are supposed to back it up.Simple as that.

As a fellow-forumer,since you claim to be presenting so-called facts,then I am entitled to ask your background on the issue,briefly how you proove it.It has nothing to do with being Turkish...I let the science be my guide.

You information as follows''...are the ones refusing to be absorbed into the dominant culture, does not take an expert in international law to define as a genocide, just some common sense.'' demonstrate the fact that you got the info on a brain-washing source,which tried to put paralels between the Holocaust and this issue,so that they could persuade people easily for their own arguments.

Please let me tell you that The Ottoman Armenian population were not required to be absrobed into the dominant culture in the 20.cebtury,as the Armenians themselves were practising Turkish customs on their won after living together for centuries.

As for the atrocities committed by the Greek Army forces in western Turkey following the WWI,I just wanted to hear you opinion on the definition of the issue no who killed more,since you acted as if an expert on crimes...

Not to my suprise,I saw that you even didnt know Greece herself paid compensation(giving a town to Turkey) for the atrocities committed by herself during the Turkish Independence War.

One of the most important sources of international law is ''international treaties'',so you got to be well-informed on the treaties if you want your allegations to be persuasive.

  Yes  We  have  killed  greeks  armenians  and  kurds  we are still  killing  them  we  are bloody minded  barbarians.

  The armenians  and  greeks  and ...  were  sitting in their  warm houses  we  have  atackted  them  without  any  reasons and  killed them.10 nations  have  lived  for  1000  years  in  peace.And  one  day  they  have killed  eachother.

  i dont believe  stroies  like this sorry.U have  to tell me  stories about  benefits  of  other countries.Like  Russia like  france  like  germany.That  could be interesting  for me  to understand  the reasons  to  kill brothers.

   General Staff  of ottoman army  was  during  the  wwi  under the  controll  and  strongly influence of  prussia.i mean  during  the genocide  times   Funny  isnt  it? And  the armenians  they  were  under the  influence  of russia  and  france.This is very funny too.

 So  who was  the  charge  for  the armenian  genocide?

Well Maju,

If you had ever attempted to read my posts before so heavily attacking,you would have noticed that they had nothing to do with the national discourse,but a member who is asking people to let science be their guide politely.

No word of nationalist sentiment is seen in my post,so I demand an apology for what you have written..

Let science be your guide,and write in a more civilised manner.The fact that you are a moderator means you are reuired to watch out your word more than us.

Originally posted by Maju I must say I am again shocked, astonished, ashamed and angry at the derivation of the discussion on what happened exactly during the Armenian Genocide to a massive barrickade to defend the honor of Turkey. Please stop being so foolish: your nation like all others have commited crimes. And the only way to clarify which part belongs to whom is by dissapassionate and careful discussion. In this regard I susggest all reasonable forumers to ignore the nationalist Turkish discourse and keep this topic as a rational discussion among people interested in knowing about the details and facts of the genocide. It is a shame for this forum that when we try to discuss serious matters we are sabotaged by nationalist crap.

Amen, Maju

lol...You have given up to back up your own argument for the fact that a distinguished member thought he could eradicate the opposition argument with his heavily blaming and call to ignore.

I must say I am again shocked, astonished, ashamed and angry at the derivation of the discussion on what happened exactly during the Armenian Genocide to a massive barrickade to defend the honor of Turkey.

Please stop being so foolish: your nation like all others have commited crimes. And the only way to clarify which part belongs to whom is by dissapassionate and careful discussion.

In this regard I susggest all reasonable forumers to ignore the nationalist Turkish discourse and keep this topic as a rational discussion among people interested in knowing about the details and facts of the genocide.

It is a shame for this forum that when we try to discuss serious matters we are sabotaged by nationalist crap.

judge? yeah  we have them  much.

  Are  you serious.Sorry my  friend.I can`t  understand  this.The  only  reason  why  "ottoman Empire"  was joined  the war  was  the  german  influence  on  the  trio.

  We  are  just used.untill  the  armenians and  turks  understand  this  we can  discuss  about genocide.The  only reason teherefore is HATE.If  we  understand  that  we  got  used  like  loo  paper ,If we can understand  we were  friends  and  brothers  for  100s  of  years then we  can  speak  about  our  friendship.

Genocide or not genocide, what do you call 1.5 milions of human's dead? maybe crime? Is it only the name "genocide" which makes you headache? ok i won't use it.

Can anyone tell me what was the reason for Armenian geno..... sorry, the crime on Armenians?

May I invite you to stop lying..

All foreign historians are entitled to get access to archives easily.Otherwise how could there be tons of books about the Tyurkish history?I would not dare talk about what I didnt know...

Since a CIRCULAR REASOING is in question here,that is to say,some people have alredy decided the correctness of their arguments,there is no need to discuss..

This is an ethical mistake,but I can't help you guys on these for the fact that some already took up their arms

If  there were not war(there were not when jews killed), If  there were not armenian rebellions(no jews rebellion),  If  there  were not armenians  who  fight under france(again no jews cooperation with enemy of germany, and  I dont think there  were large minority  at france (like russia) at that times),would all of this armenian still die?

did ottomans have enough source to feed even themself? sarýkamýs or dardennellas show they had not.

when they have not enough source  for even feed themself, can they have enough source and power, to exile that much armenians without loss,  absolutely not.(main mistake of trio, but they did this mistakes for ottomans soldiers too)

probably nothing would change jews destinity, it is not  same for armenians.

did ottomans followed armenians at other country?  did ottomans killed or tried to kill every armenians? after ww1 there were 600.000 armenians in anatolia.

 Russia

I find it ridiculous that Turks call to the Armenian genocide (when more than a million persons were killed and expelled from their lands) a massacre and yet, they call genocide to the massacre of 10.000 Muslims in Srebenica during the Bosnian War.

Talk about double standards here.

turkey should just take responsibility, like germany did, and move on.

germany admitted its mistake yet they have just as much pride in their country now then they did before.

i dont know what turks are afraid of, just admit the genocide, the USA admits its genocide of Native Americans, germany admits its genocide against jews and other ethnicities, and turkey should too!

Originally posted by Maju Diplomat (and others): I just want everyone to discuss reasonably and respectfully about the facts and particularly about who was in charge when that happened, that after all was the simple question that started this topic. I would prefer that discussion over the use of the term genocide would be left outbecause it only serves to throw dirt to each other. So let's discuss about the facts: Fact 1: The late Ottoman government under Enver Pasha seems to have been the ultimate culprit. Fact 2: This government organized a special military group to deal with the "Armenian problem". Fact 3: The "Special Organization" carried the genocide/ethnic cleansing/massacre in the following way: a) deportations in murderous conditions b) concentration camps that have been reported to be death camps as well c) on the ground killings Fact 4: It is disputed the ammount of Armenians living in NE Turkey, most sources claim that abot 2 million, while Turk sources (and only these) claim that they were much less. In the same regard, the ammount of Armenian victims is disputed, being the highest claimed figure of about 1.5 million deaths. Fact 5: images of the horror: Source for the images (and some of the previous data): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_genocide - Wikipedia

Be objective and dont act the wise guy out here

prsn how do you know that they arent american soldiers?

same way.

  Who  has influenced  or started Armenian Rebellion  on OTTOMAN EMPIRE ?  The  Russians  have  gave  the  start.

 For ottoman  Empire  it was  a Armenian  Rebellion  in  East Anatolia.This rebellion  was   good  for russian benefits and they  have  support and  started  this rebellion.

 Sorry  my  english is  not good  enough  to  explain  all  theories  and  all  facts  about  such  a  discussion.   

Originally posted by Maju I must say I am again shocked, astonished, ashamed and angry at the derivation of the discussion on what happened exactly during the Armenian Genocide to a massive barrickade to defend the honor of Turkey. Please stop being so foolish: your nation like all others have commited crimes. And the only way to clarify which part belongs to whom is by dissapassionate and careful discussion. In this regard I susggest all reasonable forumers to ignore the nationalist Turkish discourse and keep this topic as a rational discussion among people interested in knowing about the details and facts of the genocide. It is a shame for this forum that when we try to discuss serious matters we are sabotaged by nationalist crap.

aaaa yetti ama artik, bilende konusuyo bilmiyende! Bu nasil idarecilik ya, biktim artik herzaman bu ermeni meselesiyle konu acilsa hep ayni kisiler sahneye cikip moralimi bozuyo ya. Savunabilcegi TEZI yok, baskasinin sikiyle gerdege girmeye calisiyolar ya. Karsi taraf konusunca "Nationalistic crap, fascists" yok ebenin ami o ç. Bunlar bizleri ne konusturmak istiyo nede onlarin tezlerini cürüttürmek istiyo, cevir cevir salla anam aynisini...

Artik bu isin bokunu cikariyosunuz!

Im waiting for "his" reply to my post with that picture.

I will make it easy for him;

-where they german soldiers? eurr no they where mostly on the southside and the westside of the country

-are they french soldiers? maybe

-are they russian soldiers? probably...

Look a ww1 russian soldier under:

Russian officer;

I can be wrong but i think ive seen that hat before...

Yes, fool Armenians attacked Ottoman towns while we are in a war, fool Ottoman government decided to deport them, fool Kurds attacked the deporting Armenians(to take revenge), and the fool world saying it was a genocide.

Now we have examples from the "world" here.

a)I/we agree this, yes, deportation conditions were terrible.
b-c)Can you tell what happened there, and especially "where were the concentration camps"?

The Ottoman Governement and army was really busy, they didn't established any camps.We are in a World War!And we don't have a time/place/money to build camps like Germany did.There aren't any ruins of any concentration camps in Turkey.

It is only a nonsense to create unreal camps.

Dear Maju you seem doesn't know the history but talking so much.

The ground of Eastern Anatolia was dug lots of times but there weren't 1.5 million Armenians under it.We always ask to the world "if there were so much killings,where are the deaths?"

But there are lots of collective graves where the Turks massacred cruelly by Armenian Tashnak and Hincak.Those deaths are Turks, it was corrected genetically.

When we ask for witnesses Armenians say "oh,Turks killed so much that there aren't any witnesses lived" and lots of ridiculous nonsenses like these.

How a coincidence i think that it is a shame that our theories are sabotaged by crusader crap.

OK, people are starting to get their shorts in a knot here.

I ask everyone to stay calm and focused on the topic.  Let's not start throwing "crap," either nationalist or crusader.

Thanks all.

In reply to US Ambassador Morgenthau who was deploring the massacres against Armenians and attributing them to irresponsible subalterns and underlings in the distant provinces, Enver's reply was...

You are greatly mistaken. We have this country absolutely under our control. I have no desire to shift the blame onto our underlings and I am entirely willing to accept the responsibility myself for everything that has taken place.

After the German Ambassador persistently brought up the Armenian question in 1918, Talat said "with a smile"...

What on earth do you want? The question is settled. There are no more Armenians.

what's the population of Armenia today? I assume it is 3 million.what's the diaspora Armenians population in other countries? I assume it is another  million 3 million?

Their population is 8  or   9 million. Dont  ask me why  numbers are so large, when they have  one of biggest asimilation rate.

mamikon

If a turk refuse exile just shut  him, exile made  with a  law  named  "techir kanunu"

Also some pics can be prooved fake by a logical person. Really you musnt be a "genius" to find that fakement in those pictures, can i also ask to the poster where those pictures from, wich part of Turkey? Also i wanna have more "genocide" pictures with soldiers in it. 

And my sources are simply google by searching "russian soldier wwi" and "russian ww1" search results are http://images.google.be/images?svnum=10&hl=nl&lr=&q=russian+soldier+wwi - http://images.google.be/images?svnum=10&hl=nl&lr=&am p;q=russian+soldier+wwi

http://www.satiche.org.uk/vinbbp/phot2859.jpg - http://www.satiche.org.uk/vinbbp/phot2859.jpg  

i have more to post, but ill stop it here till a responce of that troublemaker.

A simply photo taken infront of a school (or church you can see it on their back) with all the employee and students (even not in Turkey, cuz in those times you had medresses and the teachers and stuff had weared saryk) also if you can see the Ottomans did teach English in those classes :

Don't be an idiot.

 /QUOTE]

Why not? Is this title belongs to you ?

the armenian genocide is as real as the holocaust and as real as the genocide against native americans...

you can keep denying it, but by the reasons you turks give of why the armenian genocide didnt happen, they could also apply to why the holocaust didnt happen, yet we all know it did, so did the armenian genocide!

you guys say that the photos are fake, well what if someone today says the pictures of the holocaust are fake?

you guys say that in war people die, well, cant someone say the samething about the holocaust?

you can say that the camps were just not well taken care of because of lack of resources, well cant the same be said of the holocaust?

if you deny the armenian genocide, then you deny the holocaust, then you deny the Native American genocide, and you deny every other genocide that has ever taken place!

No,it belonges to you.Judging a forum like this in such a manner with only 7 posts,shows high levels of stupidity.