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Mila
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Topic: Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy Posted: 31-Dec-2005 at 17:33 |
ROMAN CATHOLICISM and EASTERN ORTHODOXY
I N B O S N I A A N D H E R Z E G O V I N A
ROMAN CATHOLICISM
Roman Catholicism arrived in Bosnia and Herzegovina at roughly the same
time it did elsewhere in the Roman Empire but was much slower to spread
and take hold.
Pagan Illyrian cultural practices adopted by the Slavs of Bosnia and
Herzegovina were still commonplace in these early years and, for a
time, greatly influenced Bosnian perceptions and understanding of Roman
Catholicism.
During this era, Bosnia and Herzegovina was not recognized as a
distinct nation but existed as a region of the territory that would one
day constitute Croatia. The Bosnian Catholic diocese of VrhBosna ruled
over the core of the Bosnian region but had very little power beyond
the Miljacka Valley settlements.
It was from this VrhBosna diocese that the distinct and heretical
Bosnian Church developed, having mirrored developments that had long
ago taken hold in the surrounding countryside. King Kulin became the
first leader of the Bosnian region as a political entity.
He was a devout member of the Bosnian Church and - although he
renounced his heretical beliefs to the Pope in an attempt to stay
numerous Roman Catholic incursions into the area - he and his heirs,
right up until the Kotromanic family, practiced the Bosnian faith.
The pink and orange areas of this map depicts the VrhBosna region over which King Kulin reigned.
The rise of the Bosnian church did not
spell the end of Roman Catholicism in the region. Franciscan monks have
operated on the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina continuously for
the past several centuries. They converted many pagans and members of
the Bosnian church.
In addition, Bosnia and Herzegovina expanded its borders to include
neighboring regions where Roman Catholicism was still the accepted
faith.
While the Roman Catholic church was responsible for many forays into
Bosnia and Herzegovina - attempts to exterminate the Bosnian church
that left thousands slaughtered - it is important to note none of these
incursions were carried out or supported by Roman Catholics on the
territory of what is now Bosnia and Herzegovina.
EASTERN ORTHODOXY
Eastern Orthodoxy, on the other hand, was a relative new-comer to the
territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina. In fact, the first Orthodox
churches in Bosnia and Herzegovina were actually built in Serbia. They
became a part of Bosnia and Herzegovina only during the Kotromanic
dynasty's wars of territorial conquest with Serbia near the end of the
independent Bosnian kingdom (See the eastern yellow area on the map)
"The original Bosnia and the parts of the Croatian
kingdom annexed up until the reign of Stjepan II Kotromanic,
did not have any Orthodox inhabitants. But an Orthodox population
could be found in those border regions which earlier belonged
to medieval Serbia, and which during the reigns of Stjepan
II (east Zahumlje) and Tvrtko I (Podrinje, Travunja) became
a part of Bosnia. Only in those border regions, in the east
and south-east, which became a part of an enlarged Bosnia,
could one find Orthodox churches and convents."
(Bosnian Borders, by Tomislav Rauka)
During the Kotromanic reign, the first Orthodox churches were built in
the heart of Bosnia and Herzegovina but serviced relatively small
populations. In fact, more than 30 per cent of Bosnia and Herzegovina's
current Eastern Orthodox population arrived in the country during and
after the 1992-1995 war (Croatian Serb population movements, Vlada RS).
Edited by Mila
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Spartakus
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Posted: 31-Dec-2005 at 17:43 |
R"oman Catholicism arrived in Bosnia and Herzegovina at roughly the same time it did elsewhere in the Roman Empire "
Roman Catholicism was spread only in the Western Roman Empire.The Eastern Empire was Orthodox.Concerning the Balkans,they were under the rule of the Patriarchate of Constantinople,until the Byzantine border were shrunk in the Balkans.Cannot forget the battle between the Pope and Patriarch for the territory of Bulgaria...
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"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
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Mila
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Posted: 31-Dec-2005 at 17:51 |
Slavonia, Bosnia, Dalmatia and other areas of Croatia that later
claimed their independence were never the acknowledged subjects of the
Byzantine Empire.
Portions of southeast Bosnia and Herzegovina were part of the Byzantine
Empire but these are the same regions mentioned above as having been
incorporated into the country only during the Kotromanic dynasty.
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Spartakus
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Posted: 31-Dec-2005 at 18:10 |
The specific area of Dalmatia and Bosnia was pretty much changing hands from time to time.For example,during the 9th century with the expanion of Bulgars,especially of Symewn(893-927) those territories were not in the hands of the Empire.This situation changed during the Byzantine expansion from 950 to 1050 were they were conquered by Basileius the Second "Killer of the Bulgars" (if i am not mistaked).Then again they were lost to be regained by the Byzantines during the rule of the komninoi,especially of Manuel the First(1143-80).
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"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
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Mila
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Posted: 31-Dec-2005 at 18:59 |
There are competing claims as to who was actually in control of this
region and both the Roman and Byzantine empires made unrealistic claims
that we know were not accurate. The Romans, for example, claimed to
have conquered Kotorac (near Sarajevo) - a fortified village that we
now know had vanished from existence long before Rome ever entered this
region.
What we do know is the Roman Empire had and maintained a level on
control here. Our churches were western, our roads went west, our taxes
went west, and even Serbian history books acknowledge Bosnians were
never the "acknowledged subjects" of the Byzantine Empire - whatever
that means.
Did they say they owned us, yes. Did they, probably. Did the people living here at the time even know, probably not.
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Herschel
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Posted: 31-Dec-2005 at 19:02 |
Another thread by Mila, another thread pertaining to Bosnia.
Thanks for the post, I actually found it interesting. Next time, please
post more pictures of Bosnian woman as you have in your other threads.
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Mila
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Posted: 31-Dec-2005 at 19:07 |
The border between Bosnia and Serbia was one of the strongest, most
strictly defined in the Balkans. It changed hardly at all throughout
the centuries because of the inhospitable terrain in the area,
especially along the Drina and Tara rivers.
Even when this area was part of the Ottoman province of Bosnia, which included a vast area of modern-day Serbia and Montenegro:
You see the penis-shaped appendage on the eastern flank of the
province? This is the Sandzak. It was awarded to Serbia and Montenegro
in 1912 but had, and to this day has, a population that is
overwhemingly Muslim. Until 1992, the area of Bosnia and Herzegovina
proper just across the border from the Sandzak was the most densely
Muslim region of this country as well, the Podrinje.
Even when both sides of the border were Islamic, with very close
cultural ties (The capitals of Sandzak and Bosnia were both founded by
the same man) there was very little interaction because of the border.
No roads, no ships, nothing but a few foot trails. It's more or less
the same today and nothing like the Bosnia and Herzegovina proper, which is criss-crossed by old Roman roads heading everywhere.
That border is a brick wall and the Byzantine's never controled anything, in any real sense, beyond it.
Edited by Mila
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Mila
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Posted: 31-Dec-2005 at 19:08 |
Originally posted by Herschel
Another thread by Mila, another thread pertaining to Bosnia.
Thanks for the post, I actually found it interesting. Next time, please
post more pictures of Bosnian woman as you have in your other threads.
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No man should speak to a woman with such contempt and disrespect.
If you have a problem with threads about Bosnia, don't participate in them. At least I'm posting something.
Edited by Mila
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Heraclius
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Posted: 31-Dec-2005 at 19:35 |
Originally posted by Mila
Originally posted by Herschel
Another thread by Mila, another thread pertaining to Bosnia.
Thanks for the post, I actually found it interesting. Next time, please post more pictures of Bosnian woman as you have in your other threads.
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No man should speak to a woman with such contempt and disrespect.
If you have a problem with threads about Bosnia, don't participate in them. At least I'm posting something.
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Lets not have you two arguing here if you wouldn't mind, these kind of things have a habit of getting very personal very quickly. I'm sure you can both co-exist.
Originally I to objected to the number of Bosnia related threads, however 1, like Mila said atleast she is posting something 2, they do actually tend to be very interesting and informative on a part of the world I was until recently rather unfamiliar with.
Edited by Heraclius
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A tomb now suffices him for whom the world was not enough.
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Mila
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Posted: 31-Dec-2005 at 19:42 |
Sorry Heraclius. It's just what I know the most about and like
discussing the most, showing off the most, that sort of thing. I'm
doing better though, yes? I was focussed completely on Islamic
and Jewish Bosnia at first. Now I've gotten Roman Catholic and Eastern
Orthodox Bosnia in groove.
There's only so many Bosnia's left before I have to move on more fully to Albania and Kosovo.
There's just nothing on this place that isn't an Eastern Orthodox view
of the Balkans that I didn't put here. Sssooo much more to tell!
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Heraclius
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Posted: 31-Dec-2005 at 19:52 |
I don't mind you posting on Bosnia or infact any topic you want as much as you want aslong as it's of good quality which your posts always are. I have to say I commend you on having such in-depth knowledge on your country and the regions surrounding it.
Alot of people tend to come on here and are very patriotic and ramble on constantly about how amazing their country is and how superior it is to everywhere else etc. Posts filled with nationalistic points of view and propaganda. That is entirely different from what your doing as far as I can see, so no problem with it .
I'm sure more people are sick of me talking about Byzantium every opportunity I get then there are about your Bosnia related posts.
Edited by Heraclius
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A tomb now suffices him for whom the world was not enough.
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Mila
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Posted: 31-Dec-2005 at 19:52 |
By the way, Spartakus: here's the border in that region.
The second largest canyon in the world, actually. Only the Grand Canyon in America is deeper.
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Mila
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Posted: 31-Dec-2005 at 19:53 |
Originally posted by Heraclius
I don't mind you posting on Bosnia or infact any topic you
want as much as you want aslong as it's of good quality which your
posts always are.
Alot of people tend to come on here and are very patriotic and
ramble on constantly about how amazing their country is and how
superior it is to everywhere else etc. Posts filled with nationalistic
points of view and propaganda. That is entirely different from what
your doing as far as I can see, so no problem with it .
I'm sure more people are sick of me talking about Byzantium every opportunity I get then there are about your Bosnia related posts. |
Aww, thanks. I know I'm patriotic, probably nationalist - but I try to build it up with facts and not just ramble.
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Herschel
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Posted: 31-Dec-2005 at 21:01 |
Originally posted by Mila
Originally posted by Herschel
Another thread by Mila, another thread pertaining to Bosnia.
Thanks for the post, I actually found it interesting. Next time, please
post more pictures of Bosnian woman as you have in your other threads.
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No man should speak to a woman with such contempt and disrespect.
If you have a problem with threads about Bosnia, don't participate in them. At least I'm posting something.
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I think you misunderstand me. I LIKE your topics more than most,
because they are extremely informative, and I can tell you put a lot of
effort into them. You add pictures, you have nice layouts, and I can
tell when you're moving from one point to the next.
I don't know where this contempt and disrespect came from. I made no
mention of hate, so I don't know how "contempt" could have been
included in that sentence. And there was one thread where you said
something to the effect of "Islam: the Bosian way" then you posted many
pictures of hot Bosnian women. I thought that was very cool. Again, I
think you misunderstood me, but if you did take offense, I apologize.
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Mila
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Posted: 31-Dec-2005 at 21:07 |
Originally posted by Herschel
Originally posted by Mila
Originally posted by Herschel
Another thread by Mila, another thread pertaining to Bosnia.
Thanks for the post, I actually found it interesting. Next time, please
post more pictures of Bosnian woman as you have in your other threads.
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No man should speak to a woman with such contempt and disrespect.
If you have a problem with threads about Bosnia, don't participate in them. At least I'm posting something.
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I think you misunderstand me. I LIKE your topics more than most,
because they are extremely informative, and I can tell you put a lot of
effort into them. You add pictures, you have nice layouts, and I can
tell when you're moving from one point to the next.
I don't know where this contempt and disrespect came from. I made no
mention of hate, so I don't know how "contempt" could have been
included in that sentence. And there was one thread where you said
something to the effect of "Islam: the Bosian way" then you posted many
pictures of hot Bosnian women. I thought that was very cool. Again, I
think you misunderstood me, but if you did take offense, I apologize.
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Well, I've grown so used to swallowing my own feet that I don't even notice anymore.
I'm so sorry, Herschel, I completely misunderstood. I thought you were
- what do you call it in this sense? Critiqing me? - in a rude way and
I just don't like being talked down to. I often think the worst
possible understanding of any situation is the right one and I
completely misunderstood.
I truly apologize. I'm sorry - and I was wrong.
An ordinary woman says any of those three things very rarely - and a woman like me even less, so please know it's sincere.
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Constantine XI
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Posted: 31-Dec-2005 at 22:19 |
Aw group hug
I'm glad you two sorted this out in a civilized way while i was bring in the New Year in the far east of the world.
Anyway, I was under the impression that there would have been sizable
missionary activity in Bosnia by Orthodox monks. During the reign of
Basil II the Byzantine Empire actually managed to achieve direct
sovereignty over Bosnia/Herzegovina. During that period especially we
could have expected to see a sizeable presence of Orthodox clergymen
and monks.
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Mila
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Posted: 01-Jan-2006 at 00:03 |
Originally posted by Constantine XI
Anyway, I was under the impression that there would have been sizable
missionary activity in Bosnia by Orthodox monks. During the reign of
Basil II the Byzantine Empire actually managed to achieve direct
sovereignty over Bosnia/Herzegovina. During that period especially we
could have expected to see a sizeable presence of Orthodox clergymen
and monks.
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There's no evidence of this at all.
The oldest Eastern Orthodox religious buildings in Bosnia and
Herzegovina are all from the reign of the Kotromanic dynasty, not a
single building - nor legend of or evidence of a building - predates
this era.
In the heart of Bosnia, there were several significant migrations of
Serbs. The first occured before the Serbian identity had developed so
it's pointless to even talk about. (It's like saying Serbs settled the
Balkans instead of saying Slavs settled the Balkans. The Slavs who
arrived here certainly had not developed either Serbian, Croatian, or
Bosnian national identities. Some who believe otherwise actually claim
all Slavs were Serbs, or Croats, depending on their national
allegiance.) The mass migration of Serbs away from Kosovo affected this
area slightly, though most of these Serbs settled in what is now
northern Serbia and Vojvodina. During the years of Yugoslavia there was
a massive movement of Serbs into Bosnia and Herzegovina. I forget the
statistics, but I believe it's well over 50 per cent of the overall
Serbian population in this country. Only Montenegro experienced more
"immigration" during this era, in their case Kosovar Albanians.
Most of Bosnia's cities count Orthodox Churches and Jewish Synagogues
as their most recent religious buildings. Sarajevo's oldest Orthodox
church, for example, was built at the same time as was the Gazi
Husrev-bey's Mosque; but Sarajevo is a new city. Tuzla (6000 years
inhabited) and Jajce (1000 years inhabited) both have no Orthodox
church older than 1800. All but one church in Banja Luka, now the
largest Serbian-populated city in Bosnia and Herzegovina, were built
after 1900.
Bosnia simply wasn't influenced by the Eastern Orthodox Church in any
dramatic sense. Surely it influenced those Eastern Orthodox Christians
who came under the rule of the country, or moved here - and who until
recently contributed positively to its development - but to say it
influenced the country as a whole is simply wrong.
Bosnia and Herzegovina was overwhelmingly Roman Catholic and linked
with Croatia. Then it developed a church of its own and a national
consciousness unique to its territory. Finally it associated itself
with Islam and the Ottoman Empire.
Nowhere, from start to finish, was it an Eastern Orthodox country and
certainly nowhere was an acknowledged part of Serbia whose people
referred to themselves as Serbs.
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Constantine XI
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Posted: 01-Jan-2006 at 00:35 |
Fair enough, I don't know that much about Bosnia & Herzegovina.
Considering the Papacy and Constinopolitan Patriarchate were competing
over areas such as Moravia, Bulgaria, Serbia and Russia I thought it
may have been possible the Byzantine Emperors tried to also influence
Bosnia & Herzegovina with some sort of missionary activity.
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Mila
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Posted: 01-Jan-2006 at 00:44 |
Oh I'm sure they tried. You'd never find any record that Bosnia and
Herzegovina has Jehovah's Witnesses - but we do. I've yelled at three
or four myself.
As for Constantine, he did come here. He wrote a record of the villages
in the Miljacka River valley, among other things. And he did call us
Serbs - but, at the same time, the Pope called us Croats.
Tomislav Raukar noted in "Bosnian Borders" that while there are
numerous references to Bosnia being either Croatian or Serbian, and
populated by either Croats or Serbs, none - none - came from Bosnia or
its people. They were all composed by outsiders with obvious interests
in choosing the term they did.
They (Orthodox missionaries) were certainly not as organized as were
the Franciscans - who have left a wealth of heritage and historical
evidence in Bosnia and Herzegovina of their work. There's nothing to
show they were even here, the monks you mention - still, though, I'd
bet they were in isolation.
Today there are a lot of missionaries in Bosnia and Herzegovina but the
response has not been entirely positive. I believe they've gotten 1,700
converts - all in total. Most of these, of course, were athiest
children of communist families - a small percentage were practicing
Muslims, Catholics, or Eastern Orthodox Christians.
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Mila
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Posted: 01-Jan-2006 at 00:54 |
Okay, a question for you all...
I've read many times in history books that Bosnian Muslims practice
such a relaxed, western interpretation of Islam because they've lived
among Christians for centuries.
I disagree.
Bosnians were largely indifferent to formal religion long before the
Ottoman Empire arrived and the Christians who we lived among were far
from "relaxed and Western".
If anything - given the situation in the centuries leading to Bosnians
en masse conversion to Islam and the centuries immediately following it
- I'd expect their influence would have been one to radicalize the
Bosnian population (as we've seen following the 1992-1995 war).
I believe Bosniaks are largely as relaxed and tolerant as most regions
of the Ottoman Empire were; the only difference is that we've managed
to maintain it - and other areas, like Turkey, have maintained it
almost as much, and still others, like Albania, are even more relaxed
and western in their practice.
Because we're white and European, Eurocentric historians are more open
to noticing here what existed far beyond Europe for many centuries.
So I disagree with this sentement of this affect of Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy, what do you think?
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