opps sorry for the delay
i totally forgot about replaying to you.
so lests go.
Originally posted by Seko
Originally posted by azimuth
the one Islam ordered women to wear is different , that it has to cover all the hair and the neck and to be less attracting when the women is out of their homes
...dont know how you can use the christian and the jewish wearing of hijab against the using of hijab to musilms?
these two religions are supposed to be the same in line with islam and as per muslims belive that these religions were corrupted and changed by its people, so having some wearing hijabs can be considered one of the things which werent changed or corrupted.
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Opinion or reality? Need proof from you on this one. Most traditionalists seem to follow the notion that women back then tied there hair behind their backs and all that the new revelations provided was to cover the hair fully past their necks.
- [33:59] "O prophet, tell your wives, your daughters, and the wives of the believers that they shall LENGTHEN their garments. Thus, they will be recognized and avoid being insulted. God is Forgiver, Most Merciful."
So what could this mean azimuth? Lengthen garments. But it does not say how far. Thats is up to us. Avoid being insulted. Yeah! So they would not become harrassed by aggressive men who might think of them as something less noble or conservative. Notice how no punishment is proclaimed for believers who don't lengthen the garments. But I am sure the history of traditional Islam and the taliban types love to take basic freedoms and personal choice out of the equation.
Or is this how traditionalists treat their women?
Hadith - Al-Tirmidhi 3257, narrated Talq ibn Ali
Allah's Messenger said, "When a man calls his wife to satisfy his desire she must go to him even if she is occupied at the oven."
[Tirmidhi transmitted it.]
If the religion was not changed or corrupted then you are going against your own scholars?
Hadith - Bukhari 4:668, Narrated Abu Huraira , see also Bukhari 7:786
Allah's Apostle said, "The Jews and the Christians do not dye (their grey hair), so you shall do the opposite of what they do (i.e. dye your grey hair and beards)." |
what proofs you want? how women dressed before Islam?
its even mentioned in the Quran about "Tabaruj" and "Zeenah" which was excessive before islam and women were ordered not to show their beauti to strangers. from these verses its clear that they did practice this type of clothes before islam and Islam forbid them from doing so.
also you are arguing not to follow what the scholars through history understood from the quran verses and you yourself translating the quran as per your own understanding from a translated verse!
also about the part of the verse which says "Yudnynah Alyhunah Min Jalabeebhinah"
the word Yudnynah does not mean lengthen, it means lower, the word Alyhunah means Over them ( them as the women) the Ibn Katheer , Tabari, Qurtubi and Jalalyeen Tafseers agreed on that meant to cover the full body from head to feet and show only eyes.
As i said before when any verse came the scholars had to check what the muslims did in order to obay such verse. and those people of the time of the Prophet ( his companions) did understand these verses and acted accordingly.
if you think that you would understand these verses better than them from reading the translated verses you have soley without even checking history as a reference then i assure you that your arguments wont find much ears to listen to.
and about the Hadiths you used to make fun of, i advice you to re-check the occation when they came and what it was exactly meant from them, and most importantly to check their sources and if they are reliable or weak ones.
Originally posted by Seko
Originally posted by azimuth
lol
how is that in the contrary?
how did you assume that these verses were for the prophet wives?
did you even check the reasons behind these verses and when they came on which occations and what the muslims DID in order to follow these verses??
i can see you are using different meanings of the words in the quran i wonder which dictionary you are using.
also the word hijab has more than one meaning.
you cant just make up a conclution by yourself and deciede that these verses where for prophet's wives.
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In the process of writing I wrote prophet's wives and not believers. Only the last verse specifically mentions prophet's wives. My mistake if you were confused. Obviously the two previous verses I mentioned were for women of all ages. You seemed to jump on that like you have made a great discovery. But the point and logic of my presentation has not changed. The things to keep in mind is that the best garment is righteousness modesty; covering bossoms, and lenghten garments (cover legs or chest for example) are physical ways to do so. This all helps keep the wolves at bay and brings respect to women. |
iam not arguing that the best garment is righteousness modesty, iam talking about the clothes Islam ordered women to wear.
dont see who you decided that legs and chest are the "required" parts to cover.
obviously you are making decisions on the translated verses you have and taking the orders as per your own understanding, well people has different understanding to the same verse, and all has their reasons as you do, But which one is the correct one??
thats why History of the Actions been taken by the Prophet and his companions are the Strongest proofs of what is the verse Actully saying.
Originally posted by Seko
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Originally posted by azimuth
what i meant from my quote which you used is that the quran came in the same exact languge as the Arab spoke that time WHICH means that it was understood by them faster and the Actions they took were the accurate ones regarding any order in any verse.
Arabs today do understand the Quran easly too but as you can see to know the exact requrement of certain verses Muslims had to check through history What the early muslims did when such order or requirenmt came.
iam not saying Arabs dont know what is written in the Quran unless they transtlate it. we do know whats written there and for more details about certain matter a history must be used
a simple example the prayers werent mentioned in details in the Quran.
how would you know that you are praying as God wanted?!
it was explained by the Prophet as he said Pray as you saw me Pray.
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I have no problem with the Quran today as being written in the same language as when it first was delivered. The actions taken, as you say, were shared by the prophet and followers. That is why it reminds people to follow God and the prophet. He was a role model. His guide was God and the Quran. The hadith books were not around at the time of the prophet. It would be absurd to think that his compatriots lived by contradictory standards created generations later when they were not cannonized. Muhammad received personal revelations too, like many other humans do. But, the Quran was the only revelation he was commissioned to deliver and it is the only revelation we are supposed to follow. |
lol you are saying "that is why it reminds people to follow God and the Prophet and he was a role model" a question, how would you follow the prophet without using the Hadiths???
also the Hadiths were nt created generations after the prophet, they were recorded along with the Quran, the Hadiths ( the ones agreed by all branches of Islam) are kept save from changes as the Quran. add to that the tail of sources reaching to the prophet were recorded too. you should look more into how Hadiths were collected and saved.
also as it said in more than one place " Follow the Prophet" and "Obay the Prophet"
so how would you follow and Obay him? from what sources? OR these verses has no meaning now since the Hadiths we have are "human made" and we are not supposed to consider when taking actions ?
Originally posted by Seko
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If you think a believer needs to check with history and historical responses then you do not believe God that he is the teacher of the Quran. You need scholars and historians to tell you what to believe. |
no not true , what you are saying here or what i understood from what you are saying here is that Interpert the Quran as you wish and say this what god said.
again the scholars aren't inventors of new things , most of them just collected the Historical responses from the Prophet and His companions to the verses of the Quran.
if the Prophet didnt act as God wanted Who would????????????
would it be the man who translated the verses of the quran (word by word) into english as the one who we should follow?
in this case you are not following what god says you are following what the english translator is saying and taking his translation directly as you understood.
Originally posted by Seko
[Seems that traditional believers tend to bring up this lack of detail bit into an arguement. Questions on prayers and such are given as examples. But if you look closer you will find it there in the Quran. I will show you if you do not have that info. But first, I am interested in how you get your info on prayer. Show me your hadiths on it. They must be out there somewhere. Are they detailed as you imply? |
yea sure show me where the prayers are mentioned in detail in the Quran.
about the Hadiths talking about the prayers in details i found them and they are more organised in the Arabic version of the site than the english one
in Arabic
http://hadith.al-islam.com/subject/Hier.asp?from=5070&To =6071&ID=5069
in English
http://hadith.al-islam.com/Bayan/DisplayHits.asp?Lang=eng&am p;ID=2314&From=2315&To=2885
its from Saudi Arabia's Islamic Affairs ministry.
also you didnt tell me how do the women of the "Hijab ban supporters" pray?
if they are praying using the Hijab the question would be why?
Originally posted by seko
Lastly, I am of the mind that the Islamic religion is going through a reformation. It has in the past too. Yet currently we have greater access to vast amounts of information that enables us to question, confront or reafirm our own knowledge. The traditionalists will have to answer alot of questions with sound evidence while trying persuade inquisitive minds to see things there way. And the inquisitive ones will have much to say about age old beliefs. Commands will be evaluated and rules will be changed. People will be offended. But this is all worth it if the truth has a chance to surface. No more diets perscribed by the scholars (i.e.-shelled fish are harram); no more dress codes prescribed by scholars beyond the freedom of personal choice as layed out in the Quran; no more baseless commands. Piety is not how long one grows a beard or follows the rigours of blind superstitions. To each their own.
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i think there are alot of Scholars and Religous people will be happy to answer your questions, you dont even need to meet them, just mail them.
and as i said before what you understand is not what all the people understand from the Quran its wise to see what others think and why they think so.
by others i mean people who spended longer time of their lives studing the Quran and its commands and rules and system.
you know the Quran came in more than 20 years to the prophet, it didnt come once.
why do you think is that?
were they were dumb in the past that they wont get what the verses say?
in your quick analysis and decisions about the Quran and its commands from what translation you have and talking the verses by the translated brief words, you know that there is a reason why Arabic was chosen to be the language of the Quran.
Arabs at those times were very hard to convence, and they were mastering the way of talking in all occasions , the Quran came in Arabic as a Challege to them and they faild to even try to compete.many of them converted to Islam from hearing one chapter or even one verse.
my point is that each verse has much deeper meaning in what it appears to be.
Edited by azimuth