Paris riots

Tsar

Retired AE Administrator

Joined: 20-Dec-2004
Location: Neutral Zone
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4361

Quote

Topic: Paris riots
Posted: 08-Nov-2005 at 13:13

Originally posted by pikeshot1600

Don't get too upset about this.� Our friend sees the "evil hand of
the U.S." behind many things.� And a lot of people in here think
Jews run the world (because someone told them they do, and after all
everyone knows it, etc.).....well that's enough of that.� I doubt
too many people think this is a plot by foreign agents of the nasty, evil American
Zionist imperialistic hegemonists.

This is a French man made "hurricane Katrina."

Can't help it.

But if we have to look for conspiracy theories, why go abroad, when you can stay at home.
Who will profit from the whole affair most, once the whole thing is over, and the next elections come along?

If I were a cynic, which I ain't, I would say that facing a further slide into political oblivion, the French Far-Right came up with a really innovative marketing idea.
If I were.......

Edited by Komnenos

[IMG]http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i137/komnenos/crosses1.jpg">

Maju

King

Joined: 14-Jul-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6565

Quote

Posted: 08-Nov-2005 at 15:39

Originally posted by Komnenos

Originally posted by gcle2003

Originally posted by Komnenos

It defies belief how Anti-Semitism can still rears its ugly head in corners where you least expect it.

It defies belief as much as the ability of some people to see anti-Semitism where none existed.

Don't blame me for the over-reaction of my sub-conscious that twitches uncontrollably everytime the words "zionist" and "conspiracy" reach it.
It's probably our national collective memory, that reminds us that we have heard it all before.

It has nothing to do with anti-Semitism. USA and Israel are best friends and have many shared geopolitical interests. Among them is to cause a largely artificial "Clash of Civilizations" between the Muslim World and Europe, so they can keep manipulating both and justifying their own anti-Muslim anti-Semitism. Nowadays anti-Semitism has nothing to do with being anti-Jew, it's actually about being anti-Arab or anti-Muslim, in the broad cultural sense of the word (notice that Arabs are also "Semites" so I'm not misusing the term here).

I reckon that it is a little paranoid but with the Anglo-Saxon-Zionist bloc (USA, UK, Australia and Israel) leading clearly the international scene, there are some major reasons to be wary of whatever inccident that happens to increase tensions between the two major sociological communities of Western Eurasia. It may be accidental, it may be caused by other reasons that can't be ignored... but some specific things may well be caused by foreign provocators like those SAS agents that were captured loaded with bombs in Basra.

NO GOD, NO MASTER!

Guests

Guest

Quote

Posted: 08-Nov-2005 at 17:08

Those riots in France were clearly spontaneously, they don't have a leader(ship). If it were one or two bomb attacks it would have been possible (though not likely) but it is impossible that either Israel or the US have mobilized all those people.

Loknar

Colonel

Joined: 09-Jun-2005
Location: Somalia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 666

Quote

Posted: 08-Nov-2005 at 17:36

http://www.expatica.com/source/site_article.asp?subchannel_i d=58&story_id=25151&name=Muslims+more+integrated+in+ US+than+France

Muslims more integrated in US than France

CHICAGO, Nov 8 (AFP) - While Arab Americans and Muslims suffered a spike in hate crimes after the September 11 attacks, they do not face the same level of disenfranchisement as their French counterparts, experts say.

"They're discriminated against but they have jobs -- this is the major difference from Europe," Yvonne Haddad, a professor of Islamic history at Georgetown University in Washington told AFP.

Arab and Muslim immigrants in the US generally identify themselves as Americans and integrate with relative ease into a society that prides itself on social mobility and has more tolerance for cultural and religious differences, Haddad said.

"To identify as French you have to renounce your

faith and have to renounce you previous identity as though your previous self didn't exist. In the US you don't have to," she said.

Arabs are a tiny minority in the United States, making up less than one percent of the population, according to the census bureau. They also constitute only about a quarter to a third of the country's Muslims, estimated at six million to seven million people or about two percent of the population.

Arab Americans and Muslims are better educated and have a higher income than the national average, said Edina Lekovic, communications director for the Muslim Public Affairs Council.

"There's no clear connection between the European and the American Muslim experience," she said, explaining that Muslims in the United States are less isolated and homogeneous than their European counterpart.

She cautioned against painting the riots as a religious issue rather than the result of economic and political disenfranchisement.

"This is the culmination of a series of events and it has very little or nothing to do with quote-unquote (Muslim) extremism," she said, noting that France has more Muslim-friendly foreign policy than the United States.

"French Muslims are not responding to the issues of Palestine or Iraq. They are responding to their domestic situation."

The real parallel to the French riots is the African-American race riots of the 1960s and following the Rodney King beating in Los Angeles, said James Zogby, president of the Arab American Institute.

"It's the act of an underclass with expectations that have gone unfulfilled for a long period of time striking out, out of a combination of despair and anger," he said in a telephone interview.

France and other European countries have maintained a national identity that is tied to ethnicity while the American identity has shifted over time as waves of immigrants reshape the country.

"As long as these kids grow up not only in an economic underclass but excluded from being French or Dutch it's problematic," Zogby said. "When people in my community get angry about American foreign policy they get angry as citizens and they fight back as citizens. The process is more open to including them."

Lord Pork

Immortal Guard

Joined: 07-Nov-2005
Location: Israel
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 0

Quote

Posted: 08-Nov-2005 at 17:56

like make it simple like it is....the Franch people don't disscremnat thier arbs or muslims.....beacuse who they are....but just beacuse they are in thier contry and macking more crime then the presntage of Franch people.....it's like this if someone come to live at your home...but he dosen't exept on him the rules of your house steels forks from the table and starting burning stuff at your house beacuse he feels that you don't treat him as a fool member of the house.....what would you do?

the problem that all the imegrants who imegrated from thier country like from north Africa beacuse they search a beeter life...witch neans that they were poor back in thier country....witch mean that they are not educated people who really can learn and understand the importants of the education of thier kids......and then beacuse of this there kids are also poor....and dum and resort to crime to make a living...and making big families beacuse they don't need to make a creer they don't have a job any why....and then don't have even money to send thier kids to school

and anyway thats macking circule of poor people imegrants that are a problmatic peoplation that the franch government and people need to care to.....

i think it's the tip of the isburg wich will end in a cluteral war bettwen the islam and chritians...hhh if war between china and the us will not come first

When the situation is obscure, attack !

Maju

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4419770.stm

King

Joined: 14-Jul-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6565

Quote

Posted: 08-Nov-2005 at 18:48

Loknar: Muslims migrating to America, not just the USA but also Latin America, are middle class people with relatively high studes (as average). The Muslims coming to Europe are working class, sometimes without any studies (specially previous waves, they are more learned now). European Muslim inmigrants can compare with US Mexican or Haitian inmigrants, who I don't think are better integrated in the US than for instance in Spain.

Anyhow, we're talking about 2nd or 3rd generation people. They are not inmigrants. They are mostly working class people living in suburbs and unwilling to do the menial works that their parents used to do. They have high school, professional and even universitary degrees and speak French perfectly. They demand the same opportunities as the people of European origin. But much of the European (or French for the case) population don't see them as equals. This is a mjor problem of ghettization.

But that has happened before. In my city, the industrial and portuary type of city, many Spaniards used to come as inmigrants, they were often looked upon as foreigners but nowadays their descendants are relatively well integrated. Yet, if you go to certain poor districts and ask for surnames, you will see that most of them are either Castilian or Galician, not Basque. Now in the poorest neighbourhoods they're being displaced by this new wave of African (and some Asian) inmigrants. In the future some of these districts will be like those of Paris, full of descendandts of Moroccans, Guineans and Rumanians. It's just part of a process. Mass inmigration has never been easy to assimilate.

NO GOD, NO MASTER!

�ok ge�

Arch Duke

Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 29-Aug-2005
Location: Saudi Arabia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1775

Quote

Posted: 08-Nov-2005 at 23:20

Originally posted by Lord Pork

like make it simple like it is....the Franch people don't disscremnat thier arbs or muslims.....beacuse who they are....but just beacuse they are in thier contry and macking more crime then the presntage of Franch people.....it's like this if someone come to live at your home...but he dosen't exept on him the rules of your house steels forks from the table and starting burning stuff at your house beacuse he feels that you don't treat him as a fool member of the house.....what would you do?

Muslim French and African French are discrimanted with no doubt. If you are coming to work in France, yes you have to abide by the rules, but that doesn't mean you get treated differently and will less opportunities because of what you are or what you are doing. Also most of those angry people are second generation French citizens so, they are not recent immigrants.

Anyhow, The French Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin has adimitted the existance of descrimination which all Amnesty reports and other organizations has been pointing to long time ago. Too late to realize for sure by the French:

From BBC Last Updated: Wednesday, 9 November 2005, 02:15 GMT

Headline: French riot police enforce curfew

Social improvements

The nightly protests have gripped deprived areas with large African and Arab communities where unemployment is rife and residents complain of racism and discrimination.

KEY FLASHPOINTS

Maps of the riots

Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin said on Tuesday the restoration of law and order in those suburbs would take time and hard work.

And he also outlined plans to improve opportunities for young people through jobs and education programmes and create an agency to combat racial discrimination.

"The republic is at a moment of truth," he said. "What is being questioned is the effectiveness of our integration model."

The unrest was first sparked by the deaths in the run-down Paris suburb of Clichy-sous-Bois of two youths, who were accidentally electrocuted at an electricity sub-station.

FRENCH RIOTS

One man killed

5,873 cars torched

1,500 people arrested

17 people sentenced

120 police and firefighters injured

Figures as of 8 November

Timeline: French riots

Locals said they were being chased by the police, but the police deny this.

The new emergency powers handed to local authorities have been invoked under a 1955 law.

The law was originally passed to combat violence in Algeria in its war of independence against France from 1954-62. It was also used in New Caledonia in 1985.

This is the first time the law has been implemented in mainland France.

Originally posted by Lord Pork

I think it's the tip of the isburg wich will end in a cluteral war bettwen the islam and chritians...hhh if war between china and the us will not come first

Clearly you are a promoter of the Clash of Civlizations. Again, this is a social unrest and not a religious war. All imigrants of north African and African descend are in that riot.

France either fix its policies as the French Prime Minister has noted, or it will face such riots which are by the way best way for theives and looters to engage and take advantage of that social unrest.

Edited by �ok ge�

D.J. Kaufman
Wisdom is the reward for a lifetime of listening ... when youd have preferred to talk.

Maju

King

Joined: 14-Jul-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6565

Quote

Posted: 09-Nov-2005 at 01:43

And, as someone posted in the discussion page of Wikipedia, in pure French language, these people have not seen the interior of a mosque in their lifes. They are Muslim (some) only by background but for the rest they are normal French that don't care about religion more than I do. Only that their name may be Ali instead of Alain - and they don't want to change their names either.

NO GOD, NO MASTER!

cattus

Arch Duke

Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1803

Quote

Posted: 09-Nov-2005 at 03:33

Look at the numbers on the damage in �ok ge�'s post. Who's fault, these politicians or the people that elected them? Instead of protecting the country and the property that they were suppose to, they chose play political games.

You stomp these things early and talk about them later.

Quetzalcoatl View Drop Down

General

Suspended

Joined: 05-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 984

Quote

Posted: 09-Nov-2005 at 04:59

Originally posted by cattus

Look at the numbers on the damage in �ok ge�'s post. Who's fault, these politicians or the people that elected them? Instead of protecting the country and the property that they were suppose to, they chose play political games.

You stomp these things early and talk about them later.

Chirac is getting old, it took him 13 days to declare a curfew: the senile old man. Thankfully Sarkozy has one tough personality, you just need to see his focused eyes, the way he expresses himself: there is great strength in that man and he is France's hope. He isn't giving one inch to the rioters despite all the criticism from the hippies and vandals.

I think it is better to confront the rioters head on rather than trying to settle the matter peacefully. Let all that bad blood surfaces , let the criminals express themselves so that their deeds can be exposed to the light for all good men to see. And we've seen, what more proof does the good men and women of France need?

There will be a good outcome out of these riots, either sarkozy or Le Pen will be propelled into power. A truly right wing government will come into power.

I used to think Bush was a moron, but now I'm not so sure, if I was american I would have definitely been a Republican. I think I understand Bush now, he is simple man with a complex misison but he sure has one clear vision and for that I respect him.

Edited by Quetzalcoatl

sedamoun

Baron

Joined: 18-Oct-2005
Location: Sweden
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 480

Quote

Posted: 09-Nov-2005 at 05:57

Hey guys !!! I live in Paris and the riots are nothing more than angry young arabs and africans in the suburbs burning their neighbourhoods' own cars.

Can you see the message in the gesture? They are trashing their own property, not in the inner city but on their own turf.

FYI, this happens every 10-15 years, right before elections... and by lord... next election is in 2007. This will calm down (i think) and fire up again just before the presidential first round. A great film called La Haine was made on this topic in the mid 1990's.

The second and third generation of french immigrants from the old colonies are poorly integrated and segregated against (on the labour market, can't really get housing in paris, they live in ghettos, unemployment...).

Please, Pork Lord, i ask you not to put in your 2$ sociological analysis of France... Please.

If you take a look at the schools in the french suburbs and in the inner city, there is no comparison... it is like this for everything, populations are being outcasted.

Cheers guys.

Leonidas

Tsar

Joined: 01-Oct-2005
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4613

Quote

Posted: 09-Nov-2005 at 09:29

Pork Lord wrote:
"the problem that all the imegrants who imegrated from thier country like from north Africa beacuse they search a beeter life...witch neans that they were poor back in thier country....witch mean that they are not educated people who really can learn and understand the importants of the education of thier kids......and then beacuse of this there kids are also poor....and dum and resort to crime to make a living..."

Wow, how long did it take for you to think up that theory?

My background is from uneducated, dirt poor peasants in large families, searching for a better life just like you described. In one generation; im in a family where two out of three (not 13) kids have degree, one a pilot license, we all can get jobs (no crime

) and atleast for the greek (well actaully the migrant) story in Australia my family are typical.

It wasnt easy and you still get the odd peice of racism, but this place is a whole lot better than europe in regards to migrants. The difference is we are a part of the same society.

Exarchus

General

Joined: 18-Jan-2005
Location: France
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 760

Quote

Posted: 09-Nov-2005 at 09:40

I think the rioters are mainly spoiled kids of a too social country.

My friend from of Esatern Europe are shocked, they have free healthcare, access to schools and unis. Those French poor suburbs have (or maybe had) sport arena, social activities and so on.... the standard of living of an unemployed in those suburbs have a fairly decent standard of living compared to many other places in the world and enjoy a remarquable peace and safety. So yeah, I understand my friends from poorer countries are digusted at those riots.

Vae victis!

hugoestr

Tsar

Suspended

Joined: 13-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3987

Quote

Posted: 09-Nov-2005 at 09:44

Originally posted by Maju

European Muslim inmigrants can compare with US Mexican or Haitian
inmigrants, who I don't think are better integrated in the US than for
instance in Spain.

I can't speak for Haitians, but I would say that many Mexicans families integrate to U.S. society in about three generations. There are significant exceptions to the rule, especially in Southern California, Texas, and other states in the South West, but the general trend is for integration.

From what I hear, Muslim immigrants have much harder than how Mexicans have it in the U.S..

TheDiplomat View Drop Down