Paris riots
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URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6711
Printed Date: 04-May-2024 at 15:38
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Topic: Paris riots
Posted By: Maju
Subject: Paris riots
Date Posted: 02-Nov-2005 at 06:52
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I don't know if our French members can add some useful info to this
matter but I fear that it is becoming something than a punctual
conflict: for 6 days many areas of Paris have been scenario of violent
clashes between youths and the police. Declarions of right-wing
interior minister Nicolas Sarkozy that the rioters are "scum" (or
"rabble" depending on the translation) have only fueled the imprecise
conflict that started when three people got electrocuted when
(apparently) hiding in an electric substation from a police chase. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4395294.stm - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4395294.stm http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/257461EE-4259-42A7-AB98-B712ACE87615.htm - http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/257461EE-4259-42A7-AB 98-B712ACE87615.htm Ethnic and economic tensions are behind the explosion of anger. See this background article: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4375910.stm - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4375910.stm According to Basque newspaper http://gara.euskalherria.com/idatzia/20051102/art136973.php - Gara , Socialist opposition has strongly critizied the government and particularly Mr. Sarkozy for falling into the "war dialectics" with his comments and attitude. Spanish alternative news site http://www.lahaine.org/index.php?p=10551&more=1&c=1 - La Haine comments that the causes behind are high unemployement rates among the Parisian youth of inmigrant origins and that the violent attitude of Parisian police is not doing but to fuel the conflict.  ------------- 
NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
Replies:
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 02-Nov-2005 at 07:14
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again a Revolution in Paris? it is about time, the last one was already 37 years ago ------------- |
Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 02-Nov-2005 at 07:20
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All things considered, its pretty stuoid to hide in an electricity
substation, i mean, don't they have TV adds warning kids how dangerous
this is in France?
-------------  Arrrgh!!"
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Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 02-Nov-2005 at 07:45
| We had a similar situation in sydney, (being australian on much a smaller scale 1 nite), when a aborigine kid impaled himself on a fence while being chased by police (which also denied they were chasing him) |
Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 02-Nov-2005 at 07:50
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Was it ever verified whether or not they were chasing him? The Aussie police that is.
------------- Arrrgh!!"
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Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 02-Nov-2005 at 07:59
| Nup, it was never proven. I dont remember anyone getting into trouble in the end. while the indigenous community in that part of the city (and others) feel short changed by it all. |
Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 02-Nov-2005 at 11:14
Update: president Chirac intervenes to calm down the situation.
At the following link, you can see some pictures of the clashes, in sort of a timeline of the events: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_pictures/4399456.stm - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_pictures/4399456.stm And this is a background article: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4399748.stm - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4399748.stm -------------
NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
Posted By: Constantine XI
Date Posted: 03-Nov-2005 at 00:29
He actually managed to impale himself on a SAFETY FENCE, how I don't know. In any case it opened up a flood of violence against police, vandalism and consequent sympathy for the aboriginal community from some groups. So are the police responsible for his death? Well I pose this: if the police were not chasing him, obviously they were not. If the police were chasing him, why was he running (or riding his bike as the case actually was)? It isn't like they actually pushed him onto a fence (a safety fence at that). So if one rally car driver was killed in the lead after he crashed because the other rally car drivers were "chasing" him, does that mean the other rally car drivers should be charged with his murder? POST 1000! ------------- |
Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 03-Nov-2005 at 03:17
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Damn, having a discussion with some boneheads on another forum, people
can't seem to understand that maybe people might be angry over the fact
taht they have higher unemployment rates, generaly have a harder time
finding jobs and have zero represntation in parliamanet (in sharp
contrast to some other European countries that have smaller migrant
populations). No, its, "well they shouldn't riot" or "maybe if they got good educations" or even "why should they be allowed in parliament". Nananana i can't hear you. Theres a reason France has more severe problems with immigrants than other European countries, and thats because they are relativly worse off there in many areas. But i guess we should ignore that. We need an Emporer Nero smilie. ------------- Arrrgh!!"
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Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 03-Nov-2005 at 23:41
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Update: riots continue after a week. The department of Seine-St. Denis
and (in more sporadic manner) other suburban districts of Paris keep
suffering riots with buildings and vehicles set ablaze and even
shotings against the police. In thursday there were some riots also in
the city of Dijon (Burgundy). http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4405620.stm - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4405620.stm http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/10EF1251-D5F3-4C99-B62E-E  58238A873.htm">http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/10EF12 51-D5F3-4C99-B62E-E58238A873.htm According to basque newspaper http://gara.euskalherria.com/idatzia/20051104/art137243.php - GARA , the police station of Antony (Hauts-de-Seine) was attacked yesterday with molotov cocktails (hand-made incendiary bombs). In Aulnay, three journalist of France 2 TV channel were forced to get out their vehicle that was then set ablaze. Shots have been fired against the police in some places without causing any injuried so far. Fascist leader Le Pen accuses the government of doing nothing "while France is being attacked by foreign hordes" (sic). Foreign hordes that include kids as young as 10, born all in Ille-de-France. The rebel youngsters seem to be ready to continue with the fight, an informal speaker declared that "this is going to continue until Sarkozy (Minister of the Interior) renounces". The terms "war" and "urban guerrilla" have now become widespread in European media when informing of this conflict. Even Beijing News opens with the Parisian revolt and alerts against inmigration. Tariq Ramadan, member of a special comitee of the British Government to deal with the background of the London attacks denounces that "we send police and not social services. We are confronting ghettos". He said to Sarkozy that "you can't insult people. They are French citizens. We must talk with them. They want to be part of the solution, not to be percieved just as the problem". On the ground mediators insist that police must retire to avoid provocations. How will this end? Some images (from BBC):    -------------
NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2005 at 06:59
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Its pretty funny, following the response to this on some other forums.
People who are otherwise conservative (right across the spectrum),
instead of arguing for economic reform in France to make the economy
more flexible, and thus lower unemployment and improve the lot of the
most deprived by magical supplyside economics, call for deportation of
French citizens (to where? France?) and the need to 'show those scum,
bla bla'. I guess inside most neo-liberals theres a closet protectionist waiting to come out. ------------- Arrrgh!!"
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Posted By: cattus
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2005 at 12:32
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How about jail or North Africa for the ones from there.
How would you feel if it was your company or truck they were destroying, would you be asking for more tolerance? Have they not made their point yet, what is the solution now, do nothing, tough police or an intallation of Sharia? ------------- |
Posted By: pikeshot1600
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2005 at 12:56
People are people. They often favor "doing the right thing" until that starts to affect their interests negatively. |
Posted By: hugoestr
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2005 at 13:03
Maybe Bush can lend some cells in Guantanamo Bay for the rioters. That will teach them...  ------------- |
Posted By: hugoestr
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2005 at 13:07
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Seriously, I feel deeply for the people living in the riot zones. Riots like this normally hurt the most the same communities where they happen.
At the end of the day it is not rioters hurting the government, but it is rioters hurting their own people. ------------- |
Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2005 at 13:25
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Yes, most of the cars burned obviously belong to locals, I guess that some of the buildings/stores are too. Anyhow, the deportation attitude makes no sense: these people are all French (and EU citizens) like any other. Unless people like Cattus want to repeat the "feats" of Hitler and co., there's no legal alternative. Of course you can put some of the rioters in jail but that should be according to legal procedures. When these kind of riots happened in the 90s, 80s or the 60s the ethnical issue wasn't present (though in the 90s it played a role), and nobody was so nazi as to call for the deportation of the French youth involved. These people speak French with Parisian accent, they have studied in French public schools and they have French and European passports. Here there are some BBC articles on how France, despite the legal inexistence of racism, has still a deep racist attitude that hinders the progress (and integration) of French of African ascendance:
And an impressive image of a carpet store burning:  Btw, the riots are still extending to other cities: new inccidents have been reported in Dijon, Marseilles and Rouen. -------------
NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2005 at 14:31
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That is really screwed up and unacceptable, there are other means to file a grievance than running around and ransacking the place like it's Sierra Leone. And it was the kids' fault, stupid little idiots running into a substation. Those too little so and sos should receive a Darwin award. ------------- |
Posted By: PrznKonectoid
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2005 at 23:27
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I think the French govt and The rioters are at fault. I mean when ur penned up in a ghetto u naturally are gonna explode at some point. But really these rioters are hurting their own neighborhoods and images more than anything else. ------------- Want to know more on ancient Iran? http://www.parsaworld.com - http://www.parsaworld.com or join our forums FORUM |
Posted By: cattus
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2005 at 00:29
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Maju, I said "if from there",i.e.,North Africans. Even an American minute man would not advocated kicking out foreign nationals. Expelling a Moroccan or Algerian, throwing someone that destroys private property or lighting someone on fire in jail does not make me a Hitler.
There comes a time when enough is enough and these "youths", which look like grown men to me.. should grow up. ------------- |
Posted By: Loknar
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2005 at 01:54
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If this was happening in America the riot would have been over by day 2. What are Police doing? Are they even fireing bullets? Any tear gas? random beatings?
IN CHicago back during the Vietnam war, peple were rioting when the democratic national convention came to town. The mayor called in the national guard and said "if they're looting, shoot to kill." |
Posted By: cattus
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2005 at 03:04
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Shooting is an extreme measure and just the wrong thing to do considering most of this only involves property damage. Infact, it risks excalating the tensions. ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2005 at 07:59
Still, no-one would suggest throwing a fullblooded Frenchman out of the country he does something like that. So that means that those Morrocan and Algerian French would get a different and heavier punishment solely because of their heritage. ------------- |
Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2005 at 08:54
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Are the rioters a mix of N.African and W.African? ------------- |
Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2005 at 09:16
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Zagros wrote: "Are the rioters a mix of N.African and W.African?" What does it matter? Aslong as they are french citizens then the law applys to them equally as to all other french citizens. Ive heard simliar attitudes in Aus, and they dont help. The rioting aint a good thing but is symptomatic of bigger issues. The french govn should be looking at the real source of such anger and addressing that instead. |
Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2005 at 09:17
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There are some vanilla Frenchies amoungst them too according to some reports, but that detail seems to be less newsworthy. Its gotten to the point where some people are rioting for the sake of it, last night a disabled woman was almost burned to death when some youths attacked a bus at a bus stop with passengers aboard. Its about time the authorities in France finaly did something, whilst not forgetting the big picture (that Parisan satelite towns are everely neglected). ------------- Arrrgh!!"
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Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2005 at 10:01
If you have read the news, and the former posts, you would have known they are not "from there". They are French citizens, mostly with African parents or grandparents. I doubt a single inmigrant, legal or ilegal, would take such risks. These are people that are as French as Chirac. -------------
NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2005 at 10:16
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Update: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4409854.stm - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4409854.stm French government gets tough and warns of severe prision terms for arsonists.
There's also been a rally in the one of most affected area Aulnay-sus-Boix demanding an end to violence. ... There is some more information on the enviroment that is behind the clashes: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4408972.stm - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4408972.stm
People of the neighbourhood also talk on why this is happening ( http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/picture_gallery/05/europe_paris_riot_suburb_residents/html/6.stm - source ):  Ziwyana Cherif: "I don't think it was racism, just a mistake by the police which they should admit.
"But I do see racism every day. People's faces change as soon as they
see a black or Arab face. The death of those boys was the straw that
broke the camel's back."
This sweatshirt says 'Dead - for nothing'. It's in memory of the dead boys, Bouna and Zyed. I left school two years ago but have never had a job. As soon as I say my name and where I live, they tell me the vacancy has gone. I am happy to do any job, except be a policeman. I hate the
police. As soon as they see blacks or Arabs, they just try and cause
trouble.
My parents came from Algeria and could not read or write, so they could only do menial jobs. But the kids now don't want to suffer like their parents and grandparents did. The state is being tough at the moment but later it will have to listen. In the long-term, these riots will force the government to act. Otherwise, the next round of violence will be even worse.
The police are very rude - they don't understand our problems.
We just want to be recognised as human beings, instead of being seen as Arabs or blacks. We don't all want new mosques - that's only important for a few people, yet that's what the state does.
Burning cars does not help anyone. It just gives a bad impression - we are not animals.
Even in the civil service, we are victimised. We have to work twice as hard as white French people. That's the problem with France - institutional racism. I don't approve of the violence but it's the only way of sounding the alarm. We demand equality of opportunity. The police did nothing to stop those kids running 1,000 metres
to their deaths at an electricity sub-station. If they want peace, we
need justice. Respect must be mutual.
The police come and hassle us all the time. They ask us for our papers 10 times a day. They treat us like delinquents - especially [Interior Minister Nicolas] Sarkozy. That's not the answer. It would be good to have youth clubs and other places to go - then there would be less trouble. It's not good to burn cars but that's one way of getting attention, so people can come and solve our problems.
-------------
NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
Posted By: cattus
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2005 at 13:18
Almost all of them are of North African origin in some form from what I read. Throw the citizens in Jail, kick out those there illigally if any. If they are all citizens,fine, give them the tough jail time. Not so hard, is it?
Has the alarm been heard yet? ------------- |
Posted By: Loknar
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2005 at 18:08
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These people, North African or not, are rioting. If this doesn’t stop somebody who is innocent will be killed. Some old lady was almost BURNED to death. Shoot to kill if they're rioting. Simple. It will quell everything. At this point it isn’t an extreme measure. I don’t see why some man, who is driving home in his Lexus, should be subjected to being pulled out of his car, beaten to within an inch of his life and have his car burned. I frankly value the property being destroyed over those rioters. If somebody tries to pull me from me car because there is a riot going on and they have some message to get out, I'd blow their head off with my shot gun (if i had one). I'd rather blow some damn rioters away than allow them to pull me from my car and destroy it.
As I said, this roit would have been over if it was in America. |
Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2005 at 20:15
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Loknar wrote: " Shoot to kill if they're rioting. Simple. It will quell everything" There are better non lethal ways to deal with rioting, shoot to kill will make it worse and should only be thought about as the very last option. Police with real skill and training dont have to deal with rioting like its the wild west. "If somebody tries to pull me from me car because there is a riot going on and they have some message to get out, I'd blow their head off with my shot gun (if i had one). I'd rather blow some damn rioters away than allow them to pull me from my car and destroy it." Your car is worth more than a human life? You mite not be a rioter but you'd rather be a murderer. "As I said, this roit would have been over if it was in America." Its not America |
Posted By: Loknar
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2005 at 20:43
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Actually it would stop it. There are countless examples of this in America. At the very least they could send the army in.
HELL YES. Can you give me a good reason why I should just step aside and allow my property to be vandalized? and how am I a murderer if I am defending my self and my propery? Should I also allow rioters to pull me from my car and beat me?
Yeah it isnt;.....I can tell.... |
Posted By: Genghis
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2005 at 22:45
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Do you think that Front National will be able to capitalize on these riots and convince more Frenchmen to vote for them and their extreme anti-immigrant stance? ------------- Member of IAEA |
Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2005 at 23:49
Both Le Pen and Sarkozy will capitalize these riots probably. Remember that what brought Chirac back to the presidency was that Le Pen had managed to reach the second round of the polls and it was Chirac or Le Pen. Not any nice choice for French left voters. Next time may be Sarkozy or Le Pen - hope I'm wrong anyhow. On the other side, radical groups, maybe fundamentalist Muslims but maybe also the radical left (if such thing still exists in France) may be able to capitalize in the discontent of those many voters of African background. But they are a minoritary portion of the electorate, though maybe strategical in some constituencies... assumed they even bother to vote. -------------
NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 06-Nov-2005 at 01:30
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Loknar wrote: "Actually it would stop it. There are countless examples of this in America. At the very least they could send the army in." Yeah it would but at what cost? there are also countless examples in the middle east, PRC, Russia and latin america. Most western countries would or should have sufficeint resources and training amongst its police / emergency services to deal with this. If the USA needs to pull out the shoot to kill military on its poeple, then thats its problem. Riot police with the more appriopate training are simply better for this than soldiers that are not prepared for this type of work. The army is a very much a last resort tool. "HELL YES. Can you give me a good reason why I should just step aside and allow my property to be vandalized? and how am I a murderer if I am defending my self and my propery?" Well i value my car, ive worked hard for it but would i kill for it? No way. If that was me id run and let the insurance buy me a new car. I never said dont defend yourself, i would, but pulling out guns is the wrong way of dealing with it. It means that rioters will start using guns if they get shot at, then situation gets more dangerous for everyone; you, the rioters, police and innocent passers-by. The police will have to deal with both of you and how can they tell the difference between overzelous citizens and rioters in such chaotic scenes?  |
Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 06-Nov-2005 at 07:51
Update: the situation worsens despite police threats and more than 300 arrested.
The conflict has spread to many other cities all around France: Lille, Rouen, Sttrassbourg, Rennes, Nantes, Tolouse, Marseilles, Nice are the most recently affected. The conflict has also reached Paris city itself, for the first time going farther than the suburbs of the capital. Aljazeera ephasizes an important fact: there is no religious dimension to this conflict. It is a social one. -------------
NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
Posted By: ill_teknique
Date Posted: 06-Nov-2005 at 09:54
but if they didnt would their voices be heard? ------------- |
Posted By: Decebal
Date Posted: 06-Nov-2005 at 09:59
Boy, do you ever have a lot of respect for human life. Do you really think shooting the protesters would solve the problem? It would probably only make it worse. As for the comparison with America, am I the only one who remembers the race riots in Los Angeles in 1992? http://www.emergency.com/la-riots.htm - http://www.emergency.com/la-riots.htm I find quite a few parallels between the two: both sparked by an incident with the police resulting in death, both with racial overtones, but mostly due to social factors such as poverty and unemployment. ------------- What is history but a fable agreed upon? Napoleon Bonaparte Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth.- Mohandas Gandhi 
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Posted By: Degredado
Date Posted: 06-Nov-2005 at 12:06
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Sarkozy is right, no matter what his critics say: the people doing this are scum. Burning cars, schools and shooting at ambulances? This is just about dumb people taking advantage of a bad situation. ------------- Vou votar nas putas. Estou farto de votar nos filhos delas |
Posted By: Beylerbeyi
Date Posted: 06-Nov-2005 at 12:43
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One thing which is not often mentioned is that the French police fired tear gas into a mosque during Ramadan prayers. Imagine firing tear gas into a church during christmas... There Muslims are like 8-9% of France's population, but there is not even one non-white French person in their parliament... They have much higher unemployment rates than the French, while they are being told that everyone is equal in France. They live in poor ghettos. It is no wonder all that exploded when that fascist s.o.b. Sarkozy has taken one step too far. Everyone in France has been aware of this coming, just watch the movie La Haine. From indymedia.org:
I think the official line was 'the gas canisters indeed belong to the police but the police didn't fire them'. If you buy into that. Maybe it is more convincing to say Santa Claus fired them... ------------- |
Posted By: Styrbiorn
Date Posted: 06-Nov-2005 at 13:01
Why would that be so incredibly unprobable? Most heavier weapons used during crimes here are stolen military equipment - that must mean that the Royal Army tries to fill out their miserly budget by robbing mints and cash transports then! 
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Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 06-Nov-2005 at 17:19
C'mon! And why were there the policemen to insult the women at the exit. Anyhow what kind of criminal would steal/buy a gas canister? You get a gun, a rifle, a knife or a car but... a gas canister? Let's be serious and give each one their responsability. French cops are pretty brutal and France is not absent in Amnesty International yearly reports. -------------
NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
Posted By: Illuminati
Date Posted: 06-Nov-2005 at 18:51
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I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but there are also some pretty bad riots going on in Denmark. The riots in Denmark are for many of the same economic reasons as in France, but some is also over a few political cartoons that were printed in a major Danish newspaper that was about the Prophet Mohammed. I think that this is going too far now. Continuous rioting is noy the best way to achieve your goal. The rioters are only turning the public majority against them. And as far as the political cartoons go, I think it's fine. Denmark has freedom of the press, and they have a right to print what they wish. If you don't like a politcal cartoon, then turn the page. ------------- |
Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 06-Nov-2005 at 19:44
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Weren't those drawings printed like 2-3 weeks ago? I saw a link to them
on that mediawatchwatch blog. Incidently some muslims organised a
demonstration defending freedom of expression there.
------------- Arrrgh!!"
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Posted By: Illuminati
Date Posted: 06-Nov-2005 at 19:51
yeah, but it's being treated as one of the main reason for the unrest in Denmark. They weren't necessarily the reason for the riots. The riots are also over economic and social issues, but the politcal cartoons were definitely fuel on the fire. back to the France topic. I hope the ritos end soon, but what I am afraid of is a Rioter being shot by the police. Even though the rioters have already shot at the police and nearly killed 2 of them, if the police kill a young rioter, it's going to get alot more violent. ------------- |
Posted By: cattus
Date Posted: 06-Nov-2005 at 20:37
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Here is a Bedfordshire cartoon that had to be removed because it was insensitive.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/beds/bucks/herts/4406702.stm - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/beds/bucks/herts/4406702. stm ------------- |
Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 06-Nov-2005 at 21:27
I haven't seen any info on Danish riots in English language media. I read a comment in another forum but nothing in the press. Can you inform us? -------------
NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
Posted By: Illuminati
Date Posted: 06-Nov-2005 at 22:53
http://canadafreepress.com/2005/cover110405.htm ------------- |
Posted By: Loknar
Date Posted: 07-Nov-2005 at 01:16
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I dont see why these nation accept so many Muslim immigrants into their country. They hate western socierty as it is, whaty did everybody expect to happen? Now, these nations dont have the courage to make these people assimilate into the culture, this is what happens. All because westerners are too afraid to look like racists. |
Posted By: ArmenianSurvival
Date Posted: 07-Nov-2005 at 03:09
I didnt know that all Muslims hate western society, thanks for enlightening us.
No, apparently its because these nations dont have the courage to accept them as equals. ------------- Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance Õ”Õ«Õ¹ Õ¥Õ¶Ö„ Õ¢Õ¡ÕµÖ Õ€Õ¡Õµ Õ¥Õ¶Ö„Ö‰ |
Posted By: çok geç
Date Posted: 07-Nov-2005 at 03:26
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The riot is caused by many North African Muslims and African immigrants too. But I guess you choose what you like to focus on based on your agenda. ------------- D.J. Kaufman Wisdom is the reward for a lifetime of listening ... when youd have preferred to talk. |
Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 07-Nov-2005 at 03:42
Loknar, reading your attitude is like hearing a White Australia nolstiagist . Broad statements that brush over a simple, black and white version of reality.No muslim i know or knew hates western culture, most appreciate its freedoms/opportunities, even if some dont accept all of it. Does my girlfreind's family hate me becuase im western/christian in their eyes? no way. Has any muslim treated me like that? very few. As for assimilation, you cant make people assimilate. First thing you do is treat them as french not foreigners, give them opportunity and you would see greater assimilation naturally, but hopefully not completey (thats boring). Im not complety assimilated and refuse to give up everything for the culture i live in, so i cant see why anyone else has to. Use the full strength of the law catch and lock up offenders. Calling them scum acting with insentivity around mosques (or any religoius building) is just fanning the flames. |
Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 07-Nov-2005 at 07:32
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People can't assimilate into a society if that society excludes them
anyways, so the 'they must assimilate' crowd need to make some serious
changes if they want it to actualy happen. Edit: In Belgium too? http://www.hln.be/hln/cch/det/art_138112.html - Newslink (in Dutch/Flemish) ------------- Arrrgh!!"
|
Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 07-Nov-2005 at 11:37
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Update: situation worsens as 10 police officers are injured by gunshots
and another person, a man aged 61, dies after being beaten by a hooded
agressor. References:
-------------
NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 07-Nov-2005 at 11:50
Aka, they are trying to show off how important they are but the rioters won't listen to them much. Britian has organisations like that (two main ones in fact). Just to clarify, in Brussels, there was no riot, just a gang who set fire to a handfull of cars and then ran away before the cops even showed up, its not even certain who those youths were. Nothing like the clashes seen in France. ------------- Arrrgh!!"
|
Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 07-Nov-2005 at 13:27
Actually I suspect most of the rioters aren't very religious. They are only "Muslims" (mostly) in the broad cultural sense of the term. The same that you and I are "Christians" - i.e. have a Christian cultural background. -------------
NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 07-Nov-2005 at 13:35
|
Thats my point. These orgainisations just use the circumstanses to
appear omportant and influential in the eyes of politicans and
newspapers.
------------- Arrrgh!!"
|
Posted By: Loknar
Date Posted: 07-Nov-2005 at 14:06
|
Actually you do need to force immigrants to assimilate. If not you have trouble like in the Netherlands where Arabic is on its way to being declared a national language. I should not have said Muslims hate western society. I'm just so an annoyed that the police are so incapable of stopping these people. Innocent people have already been harmed and nobody is doing anything to stop it. The French need to impose a curfew and send in the army to lock the place down. I’m not saying they should shoot people (though I think they should when a woman is doused with gasoline and set ablaze)/ OH and 10 police officers injured by gunshot? Ok, why aren’t they shooting back? This is ridiculous. This only gores to show how incapable France is to control its population and they look quite pathetic. |
Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 07-Nov-2005 at 14:17
 ------------- Arrrgh!!"
|
Posted By: Beylerbeyi
Date Posted: 07-Nov-2005 at 14:36
|
Yeah, they should get some lessons from you yankees on shooting niggers, since you are very good at this. We have all seen how successfully you controlled your population after Katrina... ------------- |
Posted By: Loknar
Date Posted: 07-Nov-2005 at 14:42
Yeah thats right, when the cops were shot at they shot back. Is that so wrong? and what does shooting blacks have to do with anything? |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 07-Nov-2005 at 15:26
is it? I didn't notice it. Also I don't think it's very likely that our current christian democrat-conservative liberal cabinet would decide such a thing. get a clue
Their being muslim has nothing to do with these riots. These riots are caused by social-economic circumstances, religion has nothing to do with it.
Innocent people have been deprived from work, wealth and respect for years, and nobody is doing anything top stop it. ------------- |
Posted By: Loknar
Date Posted: 07-Nov-2005 at 15:53
|
Yeah, but I dont see them being pulled from a bus and being set on fire.
Are you justifying their actions? |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 07-Nov-2005 at 16:06
no ------------- |
Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 07-Nov-2005 at 17:00
That you don't see it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. The abuses of
the police were clearly large part of what caused the uprising. How
would you feel if every time you get out of home you are asked for your
papers 10 or 20 times a day, just to mention the most common police
wrongdoing. That doesn't happen even in "war zones" like the Basque
Country (not even in the most agitated or fascist repressive periods). And nobody has been set on fire so far. Let's not exaggerate. -------------
NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
Posted By: Illuminati
Date Posted: 07-Nov-2005 at 18:46
Actually, an old lady was doused with gasoline by rioters and set on fire.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4991230 The rioters are clearly out of control and have lost respect for
life. They claim to be oppressed and abused, but yet they show their
anger by lighting an innocent person on fire. I read that 1,500 police
reservists have been called up. let's hope they can stop the violence. ------------- |
Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 07-Nov-2005 at 21:11
Source?  I haven't read anything about it and so far I suspect is one of the rumors that have been malevolently been spread trough the Internet to throw more wood to the fire and provoke an exaggerated reaction or justify extreme measures. -------------
NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
Posted By: Quetzalcoatl
Date Posted: 07-Nov-2005 at 21:30
|
We don't care about their fatwa, if you ask me, they are just part of the problem, I don't know why such organisations aren't banned in France. Still we see no army crushing the insurrection. 4 years ago I was shocked by Le Pen popularity, but now I understand. I see clearly. The police is overwhelmed, it is time to impose a curfew and send in the army to get rid of the criminals. All hail Le Pen
------------- |
Posted By: Genghis
Date Posted: 07-Nov-2005 at 21:55
|
http://www.chronwatch.com/content/contentDisplay.asp?aid=17753 - http://www.chronwatch.com/content/contentDisplay.asp?aid=177 53 this thread could use some humor. ------------- Member of IAEA |
Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 07-Nov-2005 at 22:36
H-A... H-A...  Tory humor is not funny. Have you ever thought that they could be foreign agents behind the uprisings and that those could actually be some sort of US-Zionist conspiration to cause confrontation between Islam and Europe wven though none of those parts actaully want it? Political engineering they call it. It may sound like a conspiration theory but who says that all conspiration theories are just nonsense? To be paranoid doesn't mean necessarily that they aren't actually going after you. -------------
NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
Posted By: Genghis
Date Posted: 07-Nov-2005 at 23:18
I hope you're kidding, that's an absurd assertion, especially since you're saying in an indirect way that "the Jews did it". ------------- Member of IAEA |
Posted By: Illuminati
Date Posted: 07-Nov-2005 at 23:45
Did you even read my post??? I posted a link to a credible source. It happened. The rioters are out of control and have no respect for human life. Thet beat a innocent person to death today. Are you gonna claim taht that's a rumor too? The rioters are out of control and need to be stopped. The police need to start getting very physical. The rioters deserve it. It's been over 12 days now. They proved their point, but obviously they like violence a little too much to stop. ------------- |
Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 08-Nov-2005 at 01:04
I'm part kidding part serious. I really don't know what to think. But I don't said "Jews", I said "US-Zionist conspiration". Not all Jews are Zionist, nor all Zionist are Jews. -------------
NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 08-Nov-2005 at 01:20
Your source does mention it like by accident, between other many things, so it actually didn't catch my eye. Anyhow what kind of source is that? And why I'm not reading anything of the like in BBC or even Wikinews? I've read of 32 police oficers injured by gunfire, of one elderly man beaten to death by a hooded agressor (presumably a rioter), of almost 5,000 cars burned, of hundreds or presumed rioters arrested, of curfews... but not a word on that lady except yours: a source that doesn't seem particularly credible to me (unknown news site with 6 attempts of setting diferent cookies included some relatively dangerous ones as doubleclick). I remain skeptic. -------------
NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
Posted By: cattus
Date Posted: 08-Nov-2005 at 02:34
|
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200511/s1498369.htm - http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200511/s1498369.htm
http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30200-13457760,00.html - http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30200-13457760,00.html
------------- |
Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 08-Nov-2005 at 02:57
|
Ok. I find it in more sites. You're right. -------------
NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
Posted By: Degredado
Date Posted: 08-Nov-2005 at 05:51
|
Nonetheless, it could easily be read "Jews". And this whole, "zionists are out to conquer the world" is beginning to reek. ------------- Vou votar nas putas. Estou farto de votar nos filhos delas |
Posted By: Komnenos
Date Posted: 08-Nov-2005 at 07:21
Of all the questionable and absurd statements in this thread, this takes some beating. And the later attempts to explain it makes it even worse. What next? The Elders of Zion's protocols? It defies belief how Anti-Semitism can still rears its ugly head in corners where you least expect it. ------------- [IMG]http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i137/komnenos/crosses1.jpg"> |
Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 08-Nov-2005 at 07:40
|
It defies belief as much as the ability of some people to see anti-Semitism where none existed. ------------- |
Posted By: Komnenos
Date Posted: 08-Nov-2005 at 08:20
Don't blame me for the over-reaction of my sub-conscious that twitches uncontrollably everytime the words "zionist" and "conspiracy" reach it. It's probably our national collective memory, that reminds us that we have heard it all before. ------------- [IMG]http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i137/komnenos/crosses1.jpg"> |
Posted By: pikeshot1600
Date Posted: 08-Nov-2005 at 09:42
Don't get too upset about this. Our friend sees the "evil hand of the U.S." behind many things. And a lot of people in here think Jews run the world (because someone told them they do, and after all everyone knows it, etc.).....well that's enough of that. I doubt too many people think this is a plot by foreign agents of the nasty, evil American Zionist imperialistic hegemonists. This is a French man made "hurricane Katrina." |
Posted By: Komnenos
Date Posted: 08-Nov-2005 at 13:13
Can't help it. But if we have to look for conspiracy theories, why go abroad, when you can stay at home. Who will profit from the whole affair most, once the whole thing is over, and the next elections come along? If I were a cynic, which I ain't, I would say that facing a further slide into political oblivion, the French Far-Right came up with a really innovative marketing idea. If I were....... ------------- [IMG]http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i137/komnenos/crosses1.jpg"> |
Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 08-Nov-2005 at 15:39
It has nothing to do with anti-Semitism. USA and Israel are best friends and have many shared geopolitical interests. Among them is to cause a largely artificial "Clash of Civilizations" between the Muslim World and Europe, so they can keep manipulating both and justifying their own anti-Muslim anti-Semitism. Nowadays anti-Semitism has nothing to do with being anti-Jew, it's actually about being anti-Arab or anti-Muslim, in the broad cultural sense of the word (notice that Arabs are also "Semites" so I'm not misusing the term here). I reckon that it is a little paranoid but with the Anglo-Saxon-Zionist bloc (USA, UK, Australia and Israel) leading clearly the international scene, there are some major reasons to be wary of whatever inccident that happens to increase tensions between the two major sociological communities of Western Eurasia. It may be accidental, it may be caused by other reasons that can't be ignored... but some specific things may well be caused by foreign provocators like those SAS agents that were captured loaded with bombs in Basra. -------------
NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 08-Nov-2005 at 17:08
|
Those riots in France were clearly spontaneously, they don't have a
leader(ship). If it were one or two bomb attacks it would have been
possible (though not likely) but it is impossible that either Israel or
the US have mobilized all those people.
------------- |
Posted By: Loknar
Date Posted: 08-Nov-2005 at 17:36
|
||||||||
Posted By: Lord Pork
Date Posted: 08-Nov-2005 at 17:56
|
like make it simple like it is....the Franch people don't disscremnat thier arbs or muslims.....beacuse who they are....but just beacuse they are in thier contry and macking more crime then the presntage of Franch people.....it's like this if someone come to live at your home...but he dosen't exept on him the rules of your house steels forks from the table and starting burning stuff at your house beacuse he feels that you don't treat him as a fool member of the house.....what would you do?
the problem that all the imegrants who imegrated from thier country like from north Africa beacuse they search a beeter life...witch neans that they were poor back in thier country....witch mean that they are not educated people who really can learn and understand the importants of the education of thier kids......and then beacuse of this there kids are also poor....and dum and resort to crime to make a living...and making big families beacuse they don't need to make a creer they don't have a job any why....and then don't have even money to send thier kids to school
and anyway thats macking circule of poor people imegrants that are a problmatic peoplation that the franch government and people need to care to..... i think it's the tip of the isburg wich will end in a cluteral war bettwen the islam and chritians...hhh if war between china and the us will not come first ------------- When the situation is obscure, attack ! |
Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 08-Nov-2005 at 18:48
|
Loknar: Muslims migrating to America, not just the USA but also Latin
America, are middle class people with relatively high studes (as
average). The Muslims coming to Europe are working class, sometimes
without any studies (specially previous waves, they are more learned
now). European Muslim inmigrants can compare with US Mexican or Haitian
inmigrants, who I don't think are better integrated in the US than for
instance in Spain. Anyhow, we're talking about 2nd or 3rd generation people. They are not inmigrants. They are mostly working class people living in suburbs and unwilling to do the menial works that their parents used to do. They have high school, professional and even universitary degrees and speak French perfectly. They demand the same opportunities as the people of European origin. But much of the European (or French for the case) population don't see them as equals. This is a mjor problem of ghettization. But that has happened before. In my city, the industrial and portuary type of city, many Spaniards used to come as inmigrants, they were often looked upon as foreigners but nowadays their descendants are relatively well integrated. Yet, if you go to certain poor districts and ask for surnames, you will see that most of them are either Castilian or Galician, not Basque. Now in the poorest neighbourhoods they're being displaced by this new wave of African (and some Asian) inmigrants. In the future some of these districts will be like those of Paris, full of descendandts of Moroccans, Guineans and Rumanians. It's just part of a process. Mass inmigration has never been easy to assimilate. -------------
NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
Posted By: çok geç
Date Posted: 08-Nov-2005 at 23:20
|
Muslim French and African French are discrimanted with no doubt. If you are coming to work in France, yes you have to abide by the rules, but that doesn't mean you get treated differently and will less opportunities because of what you are or what you are doing. Also most of those angry people are second generation French citizens so, they are not recent immigrants. Anyhow, The French Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin has adimitted the existance of descrimination which all Amnesty reports and other organizations has been pointing to long time ago. Too late to realize for sure by the French: From BBC Last Updated: Wednesday, 9 November 2005, 02:15 GMT
 Headline: French riot police enforce curfew
Social improvements The nightly protests have gripped deprived areas with large African and Arab communities where unemployment is rife and residents complain of racism and discrimination.
Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin said on Tuesday the restoration of law and order in those suburbs would take time and hard work. And he also outlined plans to improve opportunities for young people through jobs and education programmes and create an agency to combat racial discrimination. "The republic is at a moment of truth," he said. "What is being questioned is the effectiveness of our integration model." The unrest was first sparked by the deaths in the run-down Paris suburb of Clichy-sous-Bois of two youths, who were accidentally electrocuted at an electricity sub-station.
Locals said they were being chased by the police, but the police deny this. The new emergency powers handed to local authorities have been invoked under a 1955 law. The law was originally passed to combat violence in Algeria in its war of independence against France from 1954-62. It was also used in New Caledonia in 1985. This is the first time the law has been implemented in mainland France. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4419770.stm - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4419770.stm
Clearly you are a promoter of the Clash of Civlizations. Again, this is a social unrest and not a religious war. All imigrants of north African and African descend are in that riot. France either fix its policies as the French Prime Minister has noted, or it will face such riots which are by the way best way for theives and looters to engage and take advantage of that social unrest. ------------- D.J. Kaufman Wisdom is the reward for a lifetime of listening ... when youd have preferred to talk. |
Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 09-Nov-2005 at 01:43
|
And, as someone posted in the discussion page of Wikipedia, in pure
French language, these people have not seen the interior of a mosque in
their lifes. They are Muslim (some) only by background but for the rest
they are normal French that don't care about religion more than I do.
Only that their name may be Ali instead of Alain - and they don't want
to change their names either.
-------------
NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
Posted By: cattus
Date Posted: 09-Nov-2005 at 03:33
|
Look at the numbers on the damage in çok geç's post. Who's fault, these politicians or the people that elected them? Instead of protecting the country and the property that they were suppose to, they chose play political games.
You stomp these things early and talk about them later. ------------- |
Posted By: Quetzalcoatl
Date Posted: 09-Nov-2005 at 04:59
|
Chirac is getting old, it took him 13 days to declare a curfew: the senile old man. Thankfully Sarkozy has one tough personality, you just need to see his focused eyes, the way he expresses himself: there is great strength in that man and he is France's hope. He isn't giving one inch to the rioters despite all the criticism from the hippies and vandals. I think it is better to confront the rioters head on rather than trying to settle the matter peacefully. Let all that bad blood surfaces , let the criminals express themselves so that their deeds can be exposed to the light for all good men to see. And we've seen, what more proof does the good men and women of France need? There will be a good outcome out of these riots, either sarkozy or Le Pen will be propelled into power. A truly right wing government will come into power. I used to think Bush was a moron, but now I'm not so sure, if I was american I would have definitely been a Republican. I think I understand Bush now, he is simple man with a complex misison but he sure has one clear vision and for that I respect him. ------------- |
Posted By: sedamoun
Date Posted: 09-Nov-2005 at 05:57
|
Hey guys !!! I live in Paris and the riots are nothing more than angry young arabs and africans in the suburbs burning their neighbourhoods' own cars. Can you see the message in the gesture? They are trashing their own property, not in the inner city but on their own turf. FYI, this happens every 10-15 years, right before elections... and by lord... next election is in 2007. This will calm down (i think) and fire up again just before the presidential first round. A great film called La Haine was made on this topic in the mid 1990's. The second and third generation of french immigrants from the old colonies are poorly integrated and segregated against (on the labour market, can't really get housing in paris, they live in ghettos, unemployment...). Please, Pork Lord, i ask you not to put in your 2$ sociological analysis of France... Please. If you take a look at the schools in the french suburbs and in the inner city, there is no comparison... it is like this for everything, populations are being outcasted. Cheers guys.
------------- 
|
Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 09-Nov-2005 at 09:29
|
Pork Lord wrote: "the problem that all the imegrants who imegrated from thier country like from north Africa beacuse they search a beeter life...witch neans that they were poor back in thier country....witch mean that they are not educated people who really can learn and understand the importants of the education of thier kids......and then beacuse of this there kids are also poor....and dum and resort to crime to make a living..." Wow, how long did it take for you to think up that theory?
My background is from uneducated, dirt poor peasants in large families,
searching for a better life just like you described. In one generation;
im in a family where two out of three (not 13) kids have degree, one a
pilot license, we all can get jobs (no crime) and atleast for the greek (well actaully the migrant) story in Australia my family are typical. It wasnt easy and you still get the odd peice of racism, but this place is a whole lot better than europe in regards to migrants. The difference is we are a part of the same society. |
Posted By: Exarchus
Date Posted: 09-Nov-2005 at 09:40
|
I think the rioters are mainly spoiled kids of a too social country. My friend from of Esatern Europe are shocked, they have free healthcare, access to schools and unis. Those French poor suburbs have (or maybe had) sport arena, social activities and so on.... the standard of living of an unemployed in those suburbs have a fairly decent standard of living compared to many other places in the world and enjoy a remarquable peace and safety. So yeah, I understand my friends from poorer countries are digusted at those riots. ------------- Vae victis! |
Posted By: hugoestr
Date Posted: 09-Nov-2005 at 09:44
I can't speak for Haitians, but I would say that many Mexicans families integrate to U.S. society in about three generations. There are significant exceptions to the rule, especially in Southern California, Texas, and other states in the South West, but the general trend is for integration. From what I hear, Muslim immigrants have much harder than how Mexicans have it in the U.S.. ------------- |
Posted By: TheDiplomat
Date Posted: 09-Nov-2005 at 09:52
|
I had never liked the dominant class in France. We Turks are also victims of the racist remarks uttered by French politicians everytime when The EU and Turkey get closer. I am no sad for France.We all reap what we breed. ------------- ARDA:The best Turkish diplomat ever! |
Posted By: Perseas
Date Posted: 09-Nov-2005 at 11:24
|
Bottom line is that riots in France isnt a bright example of the alleged failed policy of multiculturism as some claimed these days, neither a muslim revolution in France as other rushed to label it and cannot even be counted as race riots. They are simply outcome of grievance and dissapointment from the marginalization and unemployement of people belonging in every ethnic group. ------------- A mathematician is a person who thinks that if there are supposed to be three people in a room, but five come out, then two more must enter the room in order for it to be empty. |
Posted By: çok geç
Date Posted: 09-Nov-2005 at 12:52
|
Is this a common view in France? because if it is, that explains a lot of the racist mentality that is wide spread there. You are just simply saying that why are they complaining to the racism they face in France, unemployment, marginalization, ill-treatment by the police, opportunities shut down on their faces, poor education in their ghettos, all of that becasue if those second generation kids thought about where their parents came from or other poorer countries, it is much worse than France!! So praise the Lord that they are paid higher in France than in Algeria!!! Seriously, why would they compare the sh*t they are in with other countries poorer than France? They are FRENCH and they will compare their treatment only to their fellow French men.
Well summerized. It is a social riot and uprising. Might be ugly but how many revolutions came with flowers and candies? This is a typical uprising. ------------- D.J. Kaufman Wisdom is the reward for a lifetime of listening ... when youd have preferred to talk. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 09-Nov-2005 at 13:13
It's true that Turks are often victims of racism in Europe, but I don't think one could blame the dominant class for that. Apart from a few populist rightwing politicians almost all racists are from the lower classes. ------------- |
Posted By: Exarchus
Date Posted: 09-Nov-2005 at 13:37
I think you are misinformed and uneducated on the issue, I've been in middle school in a ZEP. Zone with a special founding, and I managed to go out by being taken in a latin option that wasn't avaible in. So don't tell me about the miseducation, they have teachers and the middle and high schools in those area too and the schools are better funded, they are just trashed by their own pupills who make working in impossible. Their schools are fairly good, with modern gymnasium (sadly burned now). The rioters have absolutly no excuses at all, they must not be bargained with, just calm them down one way or another. It's not the streets that are rioting, only bands of vandals, the largest part of them are suffering of this, who do you think they are burning the cars of? The Mercedes and BMW are not in their neightbourhoods, they burn their neightbours car, cheap and low quality cars people working in the suburbs bought. As for the unemployment, they can create their own entreprises. Don't tell me it's not possible it is, think of Mecca Cola. They should have to rely on us to create job for them, we are not a socialist republic. There are examples of them succeeding. And for racism, the sword swing two ways mind you. ------------- Vae victis! |
Posted By: Spartakus
Date Posted: 09-Nov-2005 at 14:04
|
God bless unrestrained Capitalism......All for profit.No social justice,goverments who refuse deliberately to see people's misery.The right to work is A HUMAN RIGHT.It is not a matter of France only.It's a matter of Europe.And it is not only concern 2d or 3rd generation immigrants,but all poor people.Hunger my friends,is the worst form of violence.
------------- "There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. " --- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996) |
