Author |
Share Topic Topic Search Topic Options
|
Maju
King
Joined: 14-Jul-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6565
|
Quote Reply
Topic: Paris riots Posted: 10-Nov-2005 at 19:24 |
They don't follow Islam. They just have (most) an Islamic cultural
background but the rioters don't go to the mosque, at least most of
them. They are as agnostic and irreligious as any other French or
European. In this sense I think that they are well integrated.
|
NO GOD, NO MASTER!
|
|
Guests
Guest
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 10-Nov-2005 at 19:49 |
Originally posted by Loknar
Democracy and Republic are 5th century BC ideology. |
Democracy meant something completely different in ancient Athens than it means know. Modern democracy is 18th/19th century BC.
|
|
ok ge
Arch Duke
Retired AE Moderator
Joined: 29-Aug-2005
Location: Saudi Arabia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1775
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 11-Nov-2005 at 04:05 |
Originally posted by Exarchus
People who were expecting a revolution will be disapointed, and proven wrong. |
I don't think anyone here expected a revolution more than just a social riot.
Also, the LCI poll is not a quiet great measurement to be taken seriously. I still recall LCI showing 52% for Yes to EU constitution on April 30th 2005, which proved wrong later. Anyhow, I don't think the social riot will go beyod its current situation. Though the riot was unorganized and not clear in its demands, it defnitely woke up France to a painful reality whcih caused the establishment of anti-racism agencies, promises of social reform, and employment plan correction. A more honest approach to the public than pre-riot France
|
D.J. Kaufman
Wisdom is the reward for a lifetime of listening ... when youd have preferred to talk.
|
|
Exarchus
General
Joined: 18-Jan-2005
Location: France
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 760
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 11-Nov-2005 at 05:34 |
Solving
unemployment will not go through more social reform. We need an
economic policy for once and not a social one. We are all hammered by
taxes. If those people want employment, they shouldn't ask for more
social, if they do so they didn't understand a damn thing, they first
have to create their employments and not wait for the government to
create them.
|
Vae victis!
|
|
Exarchus
General
Joined: 18-Jan-2005
Location: France
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 760
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 11-Nov-2005 at 05:37 |
Originally posted by Maju
They don't follow Islam. They just have (most) an Islamic cultural
background but the rioters don't go to the mosque, at least most of
them. They are as agnostic and irreligious as any other French or
European. In this sense I think that they are well integrated.
|
If only, I know one, who doesn't eat pork because of his religion. I
say fair enough, it doesn't matter to me. But I had him at my gates
completly drunk one night. So much for islam.
They are religious, but they twist islam in their own way.
|
Vae victis!
|
|
Guests
Guest
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 11-Nov-2005 at 05:51 |
Has anyone got any link with what other ethnic or religious groups beside the N.African Blacks and Arabs Muslims are taking part in the riots??
If the rioters are unhappy with French social system then perhaps they should go to a different EU state and search for a job or start their own business or if they don`t like Europe perhaps they should imigrate back to their ancestral countries. Dissapointment shouldnt be expressed by violence.
|
|
ArmenianSurvival
Chieftain
Joined: 11-Aug-2004
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1460
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 11-Nov-2005 at 06:26 |
Originally posted by Exarchus
They are religious, but they twist islam in their own way. |
Same thing with people who call themselves "Christian" and go to church
when they have had plenty of pre-marital sex and drunken episodes.
Every group has people like this.
|
Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance
Քիչ ենք բայց Հայ ենք։
|
|
Exarchus
General
Joined: 18-Jan-2005
Location: France
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 760
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 11-Nov-2005 at 07:19 |
Originally posted by Deng
Has anyone got any link with what other ethnic
or religious groups beside the N.African Blacks and Arabs
Muslims are taking part in the riots??
If the rioters are unhappy with French social system
then perhaps they should go to a different EU state and search for
a job or start their own business or if they don`t
like Europe perhaps they should imigrate back to
their ancestral countries. Dissapointment shouldnt be expressed by
violence.
|
As much as telling them to move out is out of proportion, I would say
living in a rich and develloped country like France, with a strong
social protection and so on is no birthright.
@Amerniansurvival, I 100% agree (I'm agnostic myself, with atheist tendencies).
|
Vae victis!
|
|
Maju
King
Joined: 14-Jul-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6565
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 11-Nov-2005 at 17:56 |
Originally posted by Exarchus
As much as telling them to move out is out of proportion, I would say
living in a rich and develloped country like France, with a strong
social protection and so on is no birthright.
|
Actually it is birthright.
|
NO GOD, NO MASTER!
|
|
The Hidden Face
Chieftain
Ustad-i Azam
Joined: 16-Jul-2005
Location: Mexico
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1379
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 11-Nov-2005 at 18:23 |
A short time ago, I watched a tv news-show on turkish tv. The subject is Paris riots and the announcer introduced a turkish guy who joined in
the rioters as if a national hero. The guy proudly told us what he did.
The editing of the show wants that we should get sympathy for him.
But...
We Turks have similar situation. In Istanbul there are a lot of kurdish suburban and unfortunately most of these people are drug dealers, burglars etc.
The turkish guy said that he is unemployed person but most
probably he is a guy who does illegal jobs. So I can understand french
people. Sarkozy might be a fasist but he is right, the rioters are virus. Unemployed
and culturally/socially unintegrated Turks in France should back to
Turkey. Turkish government knows very well to cope with this
challengers.
|
|
Maju
King
Joined: 14-Jul-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6565
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 11-Nov-2005 at 20:22 |
Put the blame on the Kurds, like if they are living in Turkey because if it's their wish.
|
NO GOD, NO MASTER!
|
|
Beylerbeyi
Chieftain
Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Cuba
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1355
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 12-Nov-2005 at 08:21 |
We Turks have similar situation. In Istanbul there are a lot of kurdish suburban and unfortunately most of these people are drug dealers, burglars etc. |
Where do those Kurds come from?
Hint: where did the 300k-1 million poor Kurdish peasants without any skills other than agriculture, whose villages were evacuated by the state during the PKK war go?
Turkish government knows very well to cope with this challengers. |
Turkish government is the cause of the social problem in Turkey, not the Kurds.
|
|
Maju
King
Joined: 14-Jul-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6565
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 12-Nov-2005 at 15:55 |
Update: riots in the center of Lyon despite the many police and the announced curfew.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4430540.stm
The trouble in Lyon began at about 1700 (1600 GMT) on
Place Bellecour where a large number of riot police were on duty as a
preventative measure.
About 50 youths attacked stalls and damaged vehicles, witnesses were quoted as saying by Reuters news agency.
The strongest unrest yesterday night was reported in
Lyon and Tolouse, while Paris is under a ban of any kind of meetings
for all the weekend.
|
NO GOD, NO MASTER!
|
|
Leonidas
Tsar
Joined: 01-Oct-2005
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4613
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 13-Nov-2005 at 08:23 |
Exarchus wrote:
"I would say
living in a rich and develloped country like France, with a strong
social protection and so on is no birthright."
Is that for all french born or just ones born with names like ali or
mehmed? You seem to dismiss the issue of racism yet provide the best
example of it.
I found a good arcticle on the BBC on the muslim minority
9.2% unemployment rate for people of French origin
14% unemployment for people of foreign origin (adjusted for education)
5% overall unemployment for university graduates
26.5% unemployment for "North African" university graduates
[It says such discrimination is particularly
rife in the retail and hospitality industries - but also for jobs involving no
contact with the public.
"Some companies believe that to be
responsible for marketing you must have roots in mainland France over several
generations to understand the French consumer attitudes," according to a
recent SOS Racisme report.
"Doors
are closed when you are an Arab," says Yazid Sabeg, a businessman and
writer.
For many young people, the first time they notice
the closed door is when they try to go clubbing.
"The first time the guy at the entrance
says: 'You're not coming in', you accept it," says Nadir Dendoune, a
journalist from lace>Saint-Denislace>.
"But after two or three times, you go
home carrying a bag of hatred on your shoulders."
And when you can't find a job, Mr Dendoune
adds, despondency turns to paranoia.
"Every rejection - even those that may
not be racially motivated - undermines your self-confidence. You feel you will
never make it because you are Arab."]
As I was saying in a earlier post on this thread bad treatment breeds
bad behavoiur. Even if the rioters are all arrested but the crap
treatement continues, it most probably will happen again.
Edited by Leonidas
|
|
Cywr
King
Retired AE Moderator
Joined: 03-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6003
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 13-Nov-2005 at 16:38 |
Modern democracy is 18th/19th century BC. |
BC?
Has anyone got any link with what other ethnic or religious groups
beside the N.African Blacks and Arabs Muslims are taking part in the
riots?? |
Theres been mention of regular French kids taking part. bare in mind
that much of the 'rioting' is just teenagers ziping around on scooters,
torching stuff, and then zipping away again. Theres a lot of people
joining in for kicks inevitably. Some of the 'rioiting' that apparently
'splled over' into Belgium, was actualy some extreme leftists throwing
a molotov cocktail at some Flams Blok (extreme rightists) place, which
isn't especialy related, but got swept in the whole' riots all over
Europe' reporting vibe.
They are religious, but they twist islam in their own way. |
It is my understanding that in France, just like in the Netherlands,
Mosque attendance has been falling for a decade. The younger generation
may identify with the religion as an identity within their society, but
they aren't intrested in hanging around in mosques listening to older
farts. Which is why stuff like that council issuing a fatwa is
worthless, more intended for those groups to appear important and
influencial as self-appointed community leaders in the eyes of the
press and politicians than anything else.
|
Arrrgh!!"
|
|
Guests
Guest
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 13-Nov-2005 at 17:13 |
Originally posted by Cywr
Modern democracy is 18th/19th century BC. |
BC? |
I meant AD of course
Edited by Mixcoatl
|
|
Maju
King
Joined: 14-Jul-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6565
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 14-Nov-2005 at 00:11 |
Some other comments/updates from local Basque press ( http://gara.euskalherria.com/idatzia/20051114/art138631.php):
The EU tries to avoid the debate on the excluded ones despite the French explossion.
Fights increase in in Lyon, while Belgian police arrests half a hundred youngsters in Brussels.
The European Union looks cautiously
to the uprising that started already more than two weeks but doesn't
want to treat in depth a phenomenon that is common to many member
states: the increasing social and economic exclusion and
marginalization of wide layers of society. The uprising meanwhile has
expanded from Paris, taken by the police, to neighbour states,
particularly Belgium, with massive police interventions.
So far the header, now let's see some most interesting remarks:
...
Greek diary "Ta Nea" confirmed this weekend that "France is the capital of European failure in inmigration matters".
...
Jos Saramago, Nobel Prize of
Literature, advses on the urgency of dealing with the situation of the
excluded of Europe before uprisings of this sort extend to other
countries of the Union.
The Prime Minister of the Republic of
Ireland, Bertie Ahern, made an appeal to watch to prevent the creation
of inmigrant ghettoes that can exlode as in the French case.
...
Confronted to the image of France as
"the country of art, fashion, culture and gastronomy", Japanese [media]
can't hide their surprise. [Russian] sociologst Lev Godukov points out
that "France is for Russians an ideal country, kind of a utopy of
civilized country (...) We are in a state of shock". The press of the
USA attacks without compassion "a country willing to give lessons to
everyone".
|
NO GOD, NO MASTER!
|
|
Leonidas
Tsar
Joined: 01-Oct-2005
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4613
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 14-Nov-2005 at 02:21 |
AS the smoke clears those that talked along the lines of Mr "scum"
Sarkozy will see their knee jerk comments and overall attitudes are
just narrow calls that ignore the bigger issues.
Update: Opinion polls are starting to favour the softer line (of the two) Villepin (52% vs 44%) source
Riots are a class act - and often they're the only alternative
"By the end of last week
it looked as though the fortnight of struggle between minority French
youth and the police might actually have yielded some progress.
Condemning the rioters is easy. They shot at the police, killed an
innocent man, trashed businesses, rammed a car into a retirement home,
and torched countless cars (given that 400 cars are burned on an
average New Year's Eve in France, this was not quite as remarkable as
some made out).
But shield your ears
from the awful roaring waters for a moment and take a look at the
ocean. Those who wondered what French youth had to gain by taking to
the streets should ask what they had to lose. Unemployed, socially
excluded, harassed by the police and condemned to poor housing, they
live on estates that are essentially open prisons. Statistically
invisible (it is against the law and republican principle to collect
data based on race or ethnicity) and politically unrepresented
(mainland France does not have a single non-white MP), their aim has
been simply to get their plight acknowledged. And they succeeded."
Editorials in france (also sourced from the guardian) have said:
Le Figaro:"France is paying for its arrogance. In the eyes of the world, our famous model of social integration is going down the drain.."
L'Humanite:"Nicolas Sarkozy's arrogance evidently has no limits.....After having deliberately lit the fuse, he happily surveys the damage, and wants time to think about it.
Le Monde: "A country that regards
itself as the birthplace of human rights and a model of social welfare
has shown itself, in everyone's eyes, to be incapable of giving its
young people the opportunities they deserve.."
Edited by Leonidas
|
|
Maju
King
Joined: 14-Jul-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6565
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 14-Nov-2005 at 02:47 |
Originally posted by Leonidas
AS the smoke clears those that talked along the lines of Mr "scum"
Sarkozy will see their knee jerk comments and overall attitudes are
just narrow calls that ignore the bigger issues.
Update: Opinion polls are starting to favour the softer line (of the two) Villepin (52% vs 44%) source
|
Obviously the nice cop is always the favorite of the two... but they work in a team.
Anyhow, while I don't have right now any source, I recall yesterday
reading that the opinion polls also showed a major increase of Le Pen
and the sinking of Socialists, who inmersed in their own inner disputes
have been as invisible as Chirac or more.
While obviously this is a major challenge for France and all Europe and
I hope we have heard the alarm and will react constructively, the fact
is that for many people of native background, whose xenophobic
tendencies were already strong, this conflict seems only to mean an
obscure danger that they may want to deal with in a fascist way.
Europe (and France specially) has already strong neo-fascist xenophobic
political currents and this may even reinforce them, I fear. Meanwhile
the class war component (dominant, no doubt) may remain hidden behind
the curtain of ethnic conflict.
|
NO GOD, NO MASTER!
|
|
Leonidas
Tsar
Joined: 01-Oct-2005
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4613
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 14-Nov-2005 at 06:18 |
well its the case of the lesser of the two evils i guess. I just hope
atleast his rhetoric is partly to blame for this shift and there is a
line that french arent comfortible with. The strength of the right is
worrisome, but these things come in cycles, when the right dont delever
or stop delivering then they get chucked out and the
otherside get a turn agian.
|
|