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ok ge
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Topic: Paris riots Posted: 09-Nov-2005 at 14:23 |
Originally posted by Exarchus
I think you are misinformed and uneducated on the issue, I've been in middle school in a ZEP. Zone with a special founding, and I managed to go out by being taken in a latin option that wasn't avaible in. So don't tell me about the miseducation, they have teachers and the middle and high schools in those area too and the schools are better funded, they are just trashed by their own pupills who make working in impossible. Their schools are fairly good, with modern gymnasium (sadly burned now). As for the unemployment, they can create their own entreprises. Don't tell me it's not possible it is, think of Mecca Cola. They should have to rely on us to create job for them, we are not a socialist republic. There are examples of them succeeding. And for racism, the sword swing two ways mind you. |
Obviously you are in denial. So I am suppose to believe that everything was nice and quiet till those evil rioters exploded for no reason? Why we don't have that large scale riot in Britain? or US?
Regarding school conditions, I am just going to use against your own witness, the witness of another:
Originally posted by sedamoun
If you take a look at the schools in the french suburbs and in the inner city, there is no comparison... it is like this for everything, populations are being outcasted. |
I personally would believe the second witness , who has lived in Paris, more than you. At least his witness goes hand in hand with all the reports I've read about France social injustice.
And what are you talking about? Mecca Cola? Mecca Cola is produced as a way to boycott Coca Cola. This product came because there is a demand for a subtitute for Coca Cola, not that there are unemployment. You are definitely a hardcore anti-immigrant. According to you, creating jobs is not the role of the govenment? So who should care about unemployment? The Green Peace movement? pffff.
Do you know that France is a more social republic than the United States? and despite that, the US federal government don't think that creating employment is not its job.
Anyhow, just make your prime minister job easier please. He has admitted the situation in France and the least you can do for your country is to cooperate in fixing the issue instead of hiding your head under the ground and calling those who punch your legs "scum". If you want to use force on them, go ahead, but offer an initiative in reforming their status. Unless again, you are in denial of their worse status as usual.
Edited by ok ge
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D.J. Kaufman
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Exarchus
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Posted: 09-Nov-2005 at 14:59 |
Denial? You're moking me right? Ever heard of the riots in Birnimgham, it was recently.
Or about the riots in Los Angeles who killed 60, sending those actual riots back to a shame?
Truth is you're just ignorant and see this from your blind eyes.
You've never set foot in one of those French suburbs, I've been in, and
I've also been in Eastern European suburbs and no they have nothing to
complain at, it's us that should complain at our money drained in
social wealthare and to get riots in return.
Because, yes they have the same free healthcare than us, the same
educative system (don't tell me their schools suck, if they do that's
because you just can't learn in as there are too much mess in class).
Their neightbourhoods drain a lot of money in renovation, or simply
cleaning their destructions.
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ok ge
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Posted: 09-Nov-2005 at 16:12 |
Originally posted by Exarchus
Denial? You're moking me right? Ever heard of the riots in Birnimgham, it was recently. Or about the riots in Los Angeles who killed 60, sending those actual riots back to a shame?
Truth is you're just ignorant and see this from your blind eyes. |
I don't think Im ignorant. The problem here is that you don't read carefully before you post. Read what I posted earlier:
"Why we don't have that large scale riot in Britain? or US?"
Do you see this underlined thing? Large scale riot? Yes, there is a huge difference between a city riot or incident and a whole country on riot. I hope you understand now better?
Originally posted by Exarchus
You've never set foot in one of those French suburbs, I've been in, and I've also been in Eastern European suburbs and no they have nothing to complain at, it's us that should complain at our money drained in social wealthare and to get riots in return. |
Yes, it happens that they are not North African or African. That is the only thing they are missing to be marginalized.
Originally posted by Exarchus
Because, yes they have the same free healthcare than us, the same educative system (don't tell me their schools suck, if they do that's because you just can't learn in as there are too much mess in class). Their neightbourhoods drain a lot of money in renovation, or simply cleaning their destructions. |
Ok, I will try my best to ignore all the reports we pointed out earlier and the admission of the French Prime Minister and believe you. No promises though.
Edited by ok ge
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D.J. Kaufman
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Exarchus
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Posted: 09-Nov-2005 at 16:32 |
So
what does it take to be a large scale riot? The riots in LA
killed 60 and was large by all mean, what riots from blacks?. At
the difference is there is laws against discrimination in France. The
French riots only killed 1 so far and are calming down. And if you're
such a genius, why Turkey or Saudi are not in civil war? Unless I'm
wrong, France is a liberal paradise where human rights take their real
meaning compared to those.
Yeah, they are French, it doesn't mean we owe them everything or
anything. I don't think I owe them anything neither I do to my
neightbour, if they rely on me or the state to create their employment
they can keep on dreaming or migrate to N Korea or any communist
country.
What admission of our Prime Minister?
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Spartakus
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Posted: 09-Nov-2005 at 16:39 |
Originally posted by Exarchus
it's us that should complain at our money drained in social wealthare and to get riots in return.
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The existence of guettos is a sign of social decay.
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"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
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ok ge
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Posted: 09-Nov-2005 at 16:50 |
Originally posted by Exarchus
So what does it take to be a large scale riot? The riots in LA killed 60 and was large by all mean, what riots from blacks?. At the difference is there is laws against discrimination in France.. |
100 people dying or 1, that is not a magnitude of how large a scale of a riot is, it is a measure how burtal is. The scale of the French riot is a clear evidance the whole country is practicing social segregation.
Plus, the fact that only one person died, shows how peaceful they are compared to LA riots.
Originally posted by Exarchus
And if you're such a genius, why Turkey or Saudi are not in civil war? Unless I'm wrong, France is a liberal paradise where human rights take their real meaning compared to those. |
No riots in Saudi Arabia because we don't have second class citizens. We have either a citizen or a mistreated foriegner. I don't know about Turkey.
But let us say that no riots in Saudi Arabia and Turkey because we are evil and we will suck their blood. Why would this be a concern to you? Still comparing other countries?
For God sake, do you really understand that they are French? Stop refering other countries to support your collapsing argument. French citizens who needs an equal treament as their other French fellow men. What do you tell them?
Originally posted by Exarchus
Yeah, they are French, it doesn't mean we owe them everything or anything. I don't think I owe them anything neither I do to my neightbour, if they rely on me or the state to create their employment they can keep on dreaming or migrate to N Korea or any communist country. |
Unless you are a government official, you owe them nothing. If you are a government official, you owe them everything. Otherwise what is your job? set down and drink coffee early morning?
Originally posted by Exarchus
What admission of our Prime Minister?
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Go back to earlier posts.
Edited by ok ge
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D.J. Kaufman
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Exarchus
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Posted: 09-Nov-2005 at 17:53 |
And how do you know how many people participate in? The rioters are not
a majority of people, even only counting the suburbs. We're not in
1968, the rioters are only a minority of vandals and must be treated as
just. We are not in civil war.
As for Turkey and Saudi I was drawing a comparison between your idea:
Arabs are better integrated in the USA and UK than France. You didn't
see the analogy, that bad, you have no point. And I never said
they weren't French, find me a single quote about this? Yet, some of
them aren't and that's fact (and they'll get out). Don't you have any
single point than making people saying thing they didn't say?
And your don't have any single point, so stop saying my argument is
collapsing, I said and I maintain those rioters are only vandals and
have no clear revendication, if it was a large portion of people the
country would be in civil war. De Gaulle in 1968 had to find asylum in
Germany, we're far from that so stop making up points to support you
argument built on sand.
And no, the government don't owe us or them everything. We have all a
national responsability, what is this way of thinking? The government
owes us everything? Is this a joke? We're not the USSR or whatever, if
you can't get your finger out of your ass you deserve nothing. Nothing
is aquired, and having our social wealthare and support is NOT A RIGHT
BUT A PRIVILEGE.
And I saw your BBC article saying the government will mobilize money, I
saw it way before this thread because I've followed it. But I don't see
our PM admiting there are discriminations, one more fact you've made up?
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Exarchus
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Posted: 09-Nov-2005 at 17:56 |
As a proof those cars burning are only vandalism, if you speak French
you just have to look for blogs in skyblog.com and you'll see they do
burning car contests only to get in Sarkozy's list of violent suburbs.
Then, if you expect a revolution or a social unrest you go it all
wrong, it is only about violence and that's all.
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khalid bin walid
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Posted: 09-Nov-2005 at 18:02 |
People may tolerate poverty, but no one will tolerate 2nd class status for long, especially when they are brought up to believe in equality. The two togethar will always erupt in protests.
Unfortunatly these flames are usually fanned by the extreme right wing, who have even more to gain from them then the protesters.
There have never been large scale riots of any sort in Britain, and this may be an indicator of the underlying difference between British and French society. Anyone who has travelled the eurotunnel will have noticed the difference between British and French police for example.
Sad, as the French aspire to such high ideals.
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ok ge
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Posted: 09-Nov-2005 at 18:16 |
Ok, I think the argument is exhausted here. I see a lot of people getting the real picture here except you. So I don't think I can get you to see what you yourself cannot see while you are in France!
I will just comment on these two points and call if off:
Originally posted by Exarchus
As for Turkey and Saudi I was drawing a comparison between your idea: Arabs are better integrated in the USA and UK than France. You didn't see the analogy, that bad, you have no point. |
Ok, very nice. so far I remember we are concerned here about France, not Mangolia or Turkey.
In asnwering your question, go back to the article posted by Loknar titled "Muslim better integrated in US than France". In case you have no time to read and follow post, I can summerize it in one sentance:
Immigrants in France from third world countries are segregated socially and in treatment. They don't feel they are French as what their French Europeans feel.
That is the difference buddy. Maybe you should ask yourself better, why is France different than Britain and US? Both are secular states, majority are Christians and mainly white Europeans origin.
Originally posted by Exarchus
And I saw your BBC article saying the government will mobilize money, I saw it way before this thread because I've followed it. But I don't see our PM admiting there are discriminations, one more fact you've made up? |
My article was one of tens available online. However, Let me point to you what you failed reading it. Fellow the underlined section because I don't have time to further hold your hand and read it with you:
Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin said on Tuesday the restoration of law and order in those suburbs would take time and hard work.
And he also outlined plans to improve opportunities for young people through jobs and education programmes and create an agency to combat racial discrimination.
"The republic is at a moment of truth," he said. "What is being questioned is the effectiveness of our integration model."
Originally posted by khalid bin walid
Anyone who has travelled the eurotunnel will have noticed the difference between British and French police for example.
Sad, as the French aspire to such high ideals. |
Yes Khalid. Very sad. France is one of the few countries that employs self-consciousness internationally. Very sad they cannot maintain that for their own citizens.
Edited by ok ge
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D.J. Kaufman
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Exarchus
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Posted: 09-Nov-2005 at 18:43 |
I won't comment the first part which only personnal attacks and irrelevant observations.
Third world immigrant, once they have the French citizenship have
access to education and healthcare. Education is mostly free in France
(I have to be frank, we pay a few hundred € for the administrative
papers and to buy the books and furnitures) and healthcare is totaly
free for serious diseases (not everything's free, drugs that are judged
unefficients or obsoletes aren't reimboursed but that's for everyone).
In the suburb, I'll tell you what's the problem, I was in one,
remember? They go to schools, who receive bigger founding, have better
and more modern buildings than the old style ones the riches go to (I
can draw a comparison myself). In France we decided everyone should
have the same chances and so people are all mixed in class. It resulted
being a disaster because 2 or 3 bastards in a classroom can screw it
all. And it's worse in the suburbs than in the middle class college.
And then puppills just can't learn, so they are less educated while the
programs in school and exams are the same (and anonymous for the
laters, talking of discrimination). That's why, I'm a strong advocate
of spliting people in classrooms according to the way they behave in
classes (instead of randomly) because better put them in
quarantine and allow the 80% of the suburb children to raise in society
while today everyone's stuck.
But you're right in a point, they don't feel French, they refer to them
as arabs (the term muslim and arab are switchable in France, as nearly
all the muslims are arabs here) or worse as muslim (I've got nothing
against islam, but if a citizen put his religion over his nationality
then I'm worried, especially in a secular state and that would be true
for a christian or a jew too).
As for drawing a comparison between France and UK, you forgot THE MOST
IMPORTANT POINT. It is than most immigrant to France those years were
Algerians and only Algerians, there is still the grief of the Algerian
war, + being one big group the conflict between Algerian immigrants and
native French are more evident. Britain had a much more diversified
immigration and there is no big group comparable to the French/Algerian
opposed to the native British.
Beside this, Britain is not secular, there is an established Anglican
Religion with the Queen at its head and every British citizen as to
make an Oath to her as head of the state.
So instead of looking for reasons that are not the source you shouldn't
miss the elephant in front of you, France had a massive immigration
from Algeria, the USA and UK had a much more diversified one.
And in your bolded and underlined part, I still don't see him admiting there is a segregation in education and healthcare here.
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ok ge
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Posted: 09-Nov-2005 at 18:52 |
First you ask:
Originally posted by Exarchus
But I don't see our PM admiting there are discriminations, one more fact you've made up? |
Then after I had to walk you step by step reading, you went saying:
Originally posted by Exarchus
And in your bolded and underlined part, I still don't see him admiting there is a segregation in education and healthcare here. |
So fix your mind, what are you looking for? "descrimination" or "segregation in education and healthcare"? I think you just like to argue, don't you?
If he is not admitting there is a "racial discrimenation" why is he creating a whole agency for that? Welcome back my friend, as your Prime Minster had said "moment of truth".
Originally posted by Exarchus
I won't comment the first part which only personnal attacks and irrelevant observations. |
I didn't know criticizing your government is an insult to you personally.
Edited by ok ge
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D.J. Kaufman
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Exarchus
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Posted: 09-Nov-2005 at 19:00 |
Originally posted by �ok ge�
I think you just like to argue, don't you?
If he is not admitting there is a "racial discrimenation" why is he creating a whole agency for that? |
Maybe to call the spirits and the riots don't you think? Though the rioters will still be dealed with.
I didn't know criticizing your government is an insult to you
personally. As your Prime Minster had said "moment of truth".
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I was refering to your comment saying I see nothing while I'm in France. I see that better than you certainly though.
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Exarchus
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Posted: 09-Nov-2005 at 19:06 |
Originally posted by Exarchus
Because, yes they have the same free
healthcare than us, the same educative system (don't tell me their
schools suck, if they do that's because you just can't learn in as
there are too much mess in class). Their neightbourhoods drain a lot of
money in renovation, or simply cleaning their destructions. |
Ok, I will try my best to ignore all the reports we pointed out
earlier and the admission of the French Prime Minister and believe you.
No promises though. |
Back to the first points and when you first talked of admissions....
I was talking of healthcare and educative system. I never moved of my
point, you did though.
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Leonidas
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Posted: 09-Nov-2005 at 21:50 |
Exarchus, I think you are missing the point. You can
claim and even maybe really provide all the education , social services
and houses you want. It means nothing if the actual community is
treated badly. Its the day to day stuff that can mess it up, if i
citizen is made to feel like a forigner or less than "french" then, inevitably this
will impact behavoiur. If you treat some one like they're sh*t
for long enough they eventually think and act accordingly, without even
knowing why themselves. Then the (very hard to break) cycle of
bad treatment and bad behavoiur begins. To understand the one point you have to understand the other.
Using the US example, it was the already long established underclass
that rioted in LA and the 60's, not muslim immigrants. THis only emphasis the social
aspect of the riots and how bad treatment breeds bad behavoiur.
Edited by Leonidas
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strategos
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Posted: 09-Nov-2005 at 22:28 |
I think after 2 weeks, it should of been time to bring out the military,perhaps to scare off some protesters. Its not like the troops are off fighting anywhere..
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sedamoun
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Posted: 10-Nov-2005 at 03:56 |
Exarchus,
How would you feel to live in a ghetto for all you life where the people are all poor? did you know that in some places - La Courneuve, Aulnay Sous Bois, Trappes - unemployment peaks at 40% ? 40% !!!! That s worse than many thirld world countries.
And don't forget... I bet you're French, right? And it was France that brought these people from the old colonies because they needed labour force - the Citron factories, Constructing firms... - in the 1950's.
What now? These people started living in the peripheral areas of all major industrial cities, does LE BIDONVILLE DE NANTERRE (i.e Nanterre's favela) ring a bell. North african workers were forced to live in poor conditions and were isolated by a "wall" of barbed wire after they manifested their miscontent by a demonstartion.
Please, you French think of these people as disposable. You seem to forget to easy that you brought them here and that you failed to integrate them (in my opinon, because you did not want to).
Si tu veux, on peut passer sur le chat franais pour poursuivre ce dbat dans la langue de Molire...
Here is an article retracing the history and the social reasons of the BANLIEUES.
http://www.well.ac.uk/cfol/lesannees.asp
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sedamoun
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Posted: 10-Nov-2005 at 04:02 |
If you don't want to read it, i ll make it easier for you, here's the conclusion:
Conclusion
The crisis in les banlieues is far from resolved. The recent success of le Front National in the presidential elections of 2002 revealed the persistence of fears about the 'crisis in the suburbs' and France's troubled acceptance of its multicultural society.
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Exarchus
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Posted: 10-Nov-2005 at 05:49 |
Originally posted by sedamoun
Exarchus,
How would you feel to live in a ghetto for all you
life where the people are all poor? did you know that in some places -
La Courneuve, Aulnay Sous Bois, Trappes - unemployment peaks at 40% ?
40% !!!! That s worse than many thirld world countries.
And don't forget... I bet you're French, right? And it
was France that brought these people from the old colonies because they
needed labour force - the Citron factories, Constructing firms... - in
the 1950's.
What now? These people started living in the
peripheral areas of all major industrial cities, does LE BIDONVILLE DE
NANTERRE (i.e Nanterre's favela) ring a bell. North african workers
were forced to live in poor conditions and were isolated by a "wall" of
barbed wire after they manifested their miscontent by a demonstartion.
Please, you French think of these people as disposable. You
seem to forget to easy that you brought them here and that you failed
to integrate them (in my opinon, because you did not want to).
Si tu veux, on peut passer sur le chat franais pour poursuivre ce dbat dans la langue de Molire...
Here is an article retracing the history and the social reasons of the BANLIEUES.
http://www.well.ac.uk/cfol/lesannees.asp
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I would be pissed, but I would not go out burning car. The rioters have
no excuse at all, so lefists should stop trying to justify the riots
this is just a disgrace that I"ll call socialist stupidy (awwww they
burned my car but I should listen to them), and even unemployed those
people are still several times under the poverty rate. France has 10%
unemployment and 6,5% beyond the poverty rate (compare to 12% in the
USA adn 17% in UK since people like to compare France to those. Even if
standards change depending of the country, we're still more or less at
the same one between western develloped countries). It means in one
sentence: "It's possible to be unemployed while not being poor in
France". Beside you're comparing block area to countries, you should be
comparing blocks to blocks France has a 10% unemployment while Saudi
has a 25% unemployment for example, so if areas of France are at 50%
(even your French bashing stats aren't accurate) I prefer not to know
the values of the poor area in those countries, and do you seriously
believe unemployment in Paris suburbs is higher than Sao Paulo's slums
and the poorest areas of 3rd world country? You are implying this in
your post and that's totaly ludicrous.
And we did not brought them in, this is just communist propaganda. We
made a lot of crimes in Algeria that's for sure and I recognise them
(because and as I've told, Algerians are the big group of immigrants
with the Portuguese but those are one generation before), but that do
not include deporting Algerians in France, that wouldn't have made any
sense in the politic of colonisation. They came here because there were
employments and that they had none in Algeria, and because they often
spoke French.
About Nanterre Slum (a bidonville is a slum) it does not exist anymore.
There is no slum in France anymore for several decades, they have been
replaced by those huge tower blocks. So I don't know what you've been
reading but your points are obviously biased, if you look for extreme
poverty just go in Paris proper and see the illegal immigrants, those
really have nothing. What does it have to do with today's problem?
Every countries had slums in the past, France was no exeption. It's
irrelevant today. So what was the purpose of bringing this?
I gave my points why the integration of those immigrants was very hard,
because it wasn't diversified and that has built antagonism. When
France received precedent waves of immigrations there were less
troubles because it was diversified (Portuguese, Spaniards, Poles and
Italians) and please don't mention the racist lame point, antagonism is
created by the communautarism and not the opposite.
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sedamoun
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Posted: 10-Nov-2005 at 07:21 |
Did people come because they needed jobs AND/OR because France needed labour Force ?
You talk about integration for Portuguese? Come on... they are still not integrated to the full. Have you been to Paris? All the concierges are Portuguese and Spanish, they stay in their community, marry their own.
I have a friend from Portugal, he is so called French, but he will not marry anything else but a woman from Portugal.
Regarding the fact that, as you say, those were the generations befor [this one] it only strengthens the fact that the Maghrebins (north africans) and the Africans are not being assimilated to the French. There is a lot of segregation on the labour market for these young guys, only a few of them make it. Some of them work with me... brilliant guys, really smart, but they had to wait a long time before they found a permanent job.
Do you think that there are many illegal immigrant living in Paris? Look at the fires that occured a month and a half ago... many of these illegal immigrant are being relocalised by Bertrand Delan (Mayor of Paris) to the poor suburbs, seen the market value of Paris' real estate.
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