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ill_teknique
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Topic: Paris riots Posted: 06-Nov-2005 at 09:54 |
Originally posted by hugoestr
Seriously, I feel deeply for the people living in the
riot zones. Riots like this normally hurt the most the same communities
where they happen.
At the end of the day it is not rioters hurting the government, but it is rioters hurting their own people.
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but if they didnt would their voices be heard?
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Maju
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Posted: 06-Nov-2005 at 07:51 |
Update: the situation worsens despite police threats and more than 300 arrested.
The conflict has spread to many other cities all around France: Lille,
Rouen, Sttrassbourg, Rennes, Nantes, Tolouse, Marseilles, Nice are the
most recently affected. The conflict has also reached Paris city
itself, for the first time going farther than the suburbs of the
capital.
Aljazeera ephasizes an important fact: there is no religious dimension to this conflict. It is a social one.
Edited by Maju
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NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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Leonidas
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Posted: 06-Nov-2005 at 01:30 |
Loknar wrote:
"Actually it would stop it. There are countless examples of this in America. At the very least they could send the army in."
Yeah it would but at what cost?
there are also countless examples in the middle east, PRC, Russia and
latin america. Most western countries would or should have sufficeint
resources and training amongst its police / emergency services to deal
with this. If the USA needs to pull out the shoot to kill military on
its poeple, then thats its problem.
Riot police with the more appriopate training are simply better for
this than soldiers that are not prepared for this type of work. The
army is a very much a last resort tool.
"HELL YES. Can you give me a good reason why I should just step aside
and allow my property to be vandalized? and how am I a murderer if I am
defending my self and my propery?"
Well i value my car, ive worked hard for it but would i kill for it? No way. If that was me id run and let the insurance buy me a new
car. I never said dont defend yourself, i would, but pulling out guns is
the wrong way of dealing with it.
It means that rioters will start using guns if they get shot at, then
situation gets more dangerous for everyone; you, the rioters, police
and innocent passers-by. The police will have to deal with both of you
and how can they tell the difference between overzelous citizens and
rioters in such chaotic scenes?
Edited by Leonidas
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Maju
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Posted: 05-Nov-2005 at 23:49 |
Originally posted by Genghis
Do you think that Front National will be able to
capitalize on these riots and convince more Frenchmen to vote for them
and their extreme anti-immigrant stance? |
Both Le Pen and Sarkozy will capitalize these riots probably. Remember
that what brought Chirac back to the presidency was that Le Pen had
managed to reach the second round of the polls and it was Chirac or Le
Pen. Not any nice choice for French left voters. Next time may be
Sarkozy or Le Pen - hope I'm wrong anyhow.
On the other side, radical groups, maybe fundamentalist Muslims but
maybe also the radical left (if such thing still exists in France) may
be able to capitalize in the discontent of those many voters of African
background. But they are a minoritary portion of the electorate, though
maybe strategical in some constituencies... assumed they even bother to
vote.
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NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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Genghis
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Posted: 05-Nov-2005 at 22:45 |
Do you think that Front National will be able to capitalize on these riots and convince more Frenchmen to vote for them and their extreme anti-immigrant stance?
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Loknar
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Posted: 05-Nov-2005 at 20:43 |
Originally posted by Leonidas
Loknar wrote: " Shoot to kill if they're rioting. Simple. It will quell everything" There are better non lethal ways to deal with rioting, shoot to kill will make it worse and should only be thought about as the very last option. Police with real skill and training dont have to deal with rioting like its the wild west.
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Actually it would stop it. There are countless examples of this in America. At the very least they could send the army in.
Your car is worth more than a human life? You mite not be a rioter but you'd rather be a murderer.
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HELL YES. Can you give me a good reason why I should just step aside and allow my property to be vandalized? and how am I a murderer if I am defending my self and my propery?
Should I also allow rioters to pull me from my car and beat me?
"As I said, this roit would have been over if it was in America." Its not America
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Yeah it isnt;.....I can tell....
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Leonidas
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Posted: 05-Nov-2005 at 20:15 |
Loknar wrote:
" Shoot to kill if they're rioting. Simple. It will quell everything"
There are better non lethal ways to deal with rioting, shoot to kill
will make it worse and should only be thought about as the very last
option. Police with real skill and training dont have to deal with
rioting like its the wild west.
"If somebody tries to pull me from me car because there is a riot going
on and they have some message to get out, I'd blow their head off with
my shot gun (if i had one). I'd rather blow some damn rioters away than
allow them to pull me from my car and destroy it."
Your car is worth more than a human life? You mite not be a rioter but you'd rather be a murderer.
"As I said, this roit would have been over if it was in America."
Its not America
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Loknar
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Posted: 05-Nov-2005 at 18:08 |
These people, North African or not, are rioting. If this doesnt stop somebody who is innocent will be killed. Some old lady was almost BURNED to death. Shoot to kill if they're rioting. Simple. It will quell everything. At this point it isnt an extreme measure. I dont see why some man, who is driving home in his Lexus, should be subjected to being pulled out of his car, beaten to within an inch of his life and have his car burned.
I frankly value the property being destroyed over those rioters. If somebody tries to pull me from me car because there is a riot going on and they have some message to get out, I'd blow their head off with my shot gun (if i had one). I'd rather blow some damn rioters away than allow them to pull me from my car and destroy it.
As I said, this roit would have been over if it was in America.
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cattus
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Posted: 05-Nov-2005 at 13:18 |
Almost all of them are of North African origin in some form from what I read. Throw the citizens in Jail, kick out those there illigally if any. If they are all citizens,fine, give them the tough jail time. Not so hard, is it?
I don't approve of the violence but it's the only way of sounding the alarm. We demand equality of opportunity. |
Has the alarm been heard yet?
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Maju
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Posted: 05-Nov-2005 at 10:16 |
Update: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4409854.stm
French government gets tough and warns of severe prision terms for arsonists.
Police arrested more than 250 people on Friday night as
arsonists attacked nurseries and a school and unrest spread to Nice,
Lille, Marseille and Toulouse.
"The republican state cannot accept violence," Mr
Sarkozy said after a meeting of government ministers called by Prime
Minister Dominique de Villepin.
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There's also been a rally in the one of most affected area Aulnay-sus-Boix demanding an end to violence.
...
There is some more information on the enviroment that is behind the clashes: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4408972.stm
Those who live there say that when they go for a job, as
soon as they give their name as "Mamadou" and say they live in Clichy,
they are immediately told that the vacancy has been taken.
When high numbers of unemployed young men live together, the outcome is often violence.
A young woman, Maratt Sabek, said that black and Arabic
women do not face nearly as much discrimination in the job market as
their brothers.
But what will the violence achieve?
Many Clichy residents see a bleak future among the tower blocks
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"It's catastrophic - we're the ones who suffer," said one young woman, who was too afraid to give her name.
The cars and shops which are burnt belong to those who
have managed to find a job and save up despite all the obstacles they
face.
One woman who is visiting friends and relations in
Clichy said she was astonished to see the flames and hear the police
sirens, saying it reminded her of home - Algeria, where a decade-long
civil war has just about finished.
This may be an exaggeration but it is a comparison which
would still shock many French people who have never seen the near-third
world deprivation in their midst.
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People of the neighbourhood also talk on why this is happening ( source):
Ziwyana Cherif: "I don't think it was racism, just a mistake by the police which they should admit.
"But I do see racism every day. People's faces change as soon as they
see a black or Arab face. The death of those boys was the straw that
broke the camel's back."
Mamadou Nyang, 19
This sweatshirt says 'Dead - for nothing'. It's in memory of the dead boys, Bouna and Zyed.
I left school two years ago but have never had a job. As soon as I say
my name and where I live, they tell me the vacancy has gone.
I am happy to do any job, except be a policeman. I hate the
police. As soon as they see blacks or Arabs, they just try and cause
trouble.
Ahmed Belmokhtar, taxi driver
My parents came from Algeria and could not read or write, so they could only do menial jobs.
But the kids now don't want to suffer like their parents and
grandparents did. The state is being tough at the moment but later it
will have to listen.
In the long-term, these riots will force the government to act. Otherwise, the next round of violence will be even worse.
The police are very rude - they don't understand our problems.
Maratt Sabek
We just want to be recognised as human beings, instead of being seen as Arabs or blacks.
We don't all want new mosques - that's only important for a few people, yet that's what the state does.
Burning cars does not help anyone. It just gives a bad impression - we are not animals.
Bilal, 29, civil servant
Even in the civil service, we are victimised. We have to work twice as
hard as white French people. That's the problem with France -
institutional racism.
I don't approve of the violence but it's the only way of sounding the alarm. We demand equality of opportunity.
The police did nothing to stop those kids running 1,000 metres
to their deaths at an electricity sub-station. If they want peace, we
need justice. Respect must be mutual.
Mehmet Altun, 15
The police come and hassle us all the time. They ask us for our papers 10 times a day.
They treat us like delinquents - especially [Interior Minister Nicolas] Sarkozy. That's not the answer.
It would be good to have youth clubs and other places to go - then there would be less trouble.
It's not good to burn cars but that's one way of getting attention, so people can come and solve our problems.
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NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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Maju
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Posted: 05-Nov-2005 at 10:01 |
Originally posted by cattus
Maju, I said "if from there",i.e.,North Africans. Even an
American minute man would not advocated kicking out foreign nationals.
Expelling a Moroccan or Algerian, throwing someone that destroys
private property or lighting someone on fire in jail does not make me a
Hitler.
There comes a time when enough is enough and these "youths", which look like grown men to me.. should grow up. |
If you have read the news, and the former posts, you would have known
they are not "from there". They are French citizens, mostly with
African parents or grandparents. I doubt a single inmigrant, legal or
ilegal, would take such risks. These are people that are as French as
Chirac.
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NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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Cywr
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Posted: 05-Nov-2005 at 09:17 |
There are some vanilla Frenchies amoungst them too according to some reports, but that detail seems to be less newsworthy.
Its gotten to the point where some people are rioting for the sake of
it, last night a disabled woman was almost burned to death when some
youths attacked a bus at a bus stop with passengers aboard.
Its about time the authorities in France finaly did something, whilst
not forgetting the big picture (that Parisan satelite towns are everely
neglected).
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Arrrgh!!"
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Leonidas
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Posted: 05-Nov-2005 at 09:16 |
Zagros wrote:
"Are the rioters a mix of N.African and W.African?"
What does it matter? Aslong as they are french citizens then the law applys to them equally as to all other french citizens. Ive heard simliar attitudes in Aus, and they dont help.
The rioting aint a good thing but is symptomatic of bigger issues. The
french govn should be looking at the real source of such anger and
addressing that instead.
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Zagros
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Posted: 05-Nov-2005 at 08:54 |
Are the rioters a mix of N.African and W.African?
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Guests
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Posted: 05-Nov-2005 at 07:59 |
Originally posted by cattus
Expelling a Moroccan or Algerian, throwing someone that
destroys private property or lighting someone on fire in jail does not
make me a Hitler. |
Still, no-one would suggest throwing a fullblooded Frenchman out of the
country he does something like that. So that means that those Morrocan
and Algerian French would get a different and heavier punishment solely
because of their heritage.
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cattus
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Posted: 05-Nov-2005 at 03:04 |
Shooting is an extreme measure and just the wrong thing to do considering most of this only involves property damage. Infact, it risks excalating the tensions.
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Loknar
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Posted: 05-Nov-2005 at 01:54 |
If this was happening in America the riot would have been over by day 2.
What are Police doing? Are they even fireing bullets? Any tear gas? random beatings?
IN CHicago back during the Vietnam war, peple were rioting when the democratic national convention came to town. The mayor called in the national guard and said "if they're looting, shoot to kill."
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cattus
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Posted: 05-Nov-2005 at 00:29 |
Maju, I said "if from there",i.e.,North Africans. Even an American minute man would not advocated kicking out foreign nationals. Expelling a Moroccan or Algerian, throwing someone that destroys private property or lighting someone on fire in jail does not make me a Hitler.
There comes a time when enough is enough and these "youths", which look like grown men to me.. should grow up.
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PrznKonectoid
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Posted: 04-Nov-2005 at 23:27 |
I think the French govt and The rioters are at fault. I mean when ur penned up in a ghetto u naturally are gonna explode at some point. But really these rioters are hurting their own neighborhoods and images more than anything else.
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Zagros
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Posted: 04-Nov-2005 at 14:31 |
That is really screwed up and unacceptable, there are other means to file a grievance than running around and ransacking the place like it's Sierra Leone. And it was the kids' fault, stupid little idiots running into a substation. Those too little so and sos should receive a Darwin award.
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