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Super Goat (^_^)
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Topic: Who conquered who? Turk or Arab Posted: 23-Oct-2005 at 19:44 |
lol i shouldnt have said middle eastern, i didnt know that all this was gona happen
and umm, palestine, lebonon, and syria arent really a desert climate, so it cant be said the desert is a middle easter climate
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The Hidden Face
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Posted: 23-Oct-2005 at 20:26 |
Both culturally and geographically Turkey, Egypt and Iran (Istanbul, Cairo, Tehran) are the centre of middle east. This is a fact. Not an opinion.
Edited by THE TURK
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oTToMAn_TurK
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Posted: 24-Oct-2005 at 03:55 |
LOL @ Super Goat (^_^)
guys theres no need to have this discussion we are all middle eastern and as THE TURK siad "This is a fact. Not an opinion"
get back to the orignal topic please, who influenced who more, Turks or Arabs.
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Either your a slave to what MADE-MAN
Or your a slave to what MAN-MADE
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kotumeyil
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Posted: 24-Oct-2005 at 04:14 |
"Middle East" is a subjective concept created by the Western Europe. Eastern Europe was considered as the Near East, Asia Minor, Arabia, Iran, etc. were cosidered as Middle East and the rest was "Far East" and we, the "Middle Easterners" still use this Euro-centric concept. We define ourselves according to Europe. America is more eastern than Japan. Why don't we call there Far Far East?
As for the topic, Arabic culture has a stronger but indirect influence in the cultural sphere but in the political sphere Turkish influence was stronger since the Abbasid times...
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The Hidden Face
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Posted: 24-Oct-2005 at 05:03 |
Originally posted by kotumeyil
"Middle East" is a subjective concept created by the Western Europe. Eastern Europe was considered as the Near East, Asia Minor, Arabia, Iran, etc. were cosidered as Middle East and the rest was "Far East" and we, the "Middle Easterners" still use this Euro-centric concept. We define ourselves according to Europe. America is more eastern than Japan. Why don't we call there Far Far East?
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Kotumeyil, look at your country's name, Who has named Turkey (Turkiye)? The West or the Turks? So Euro-Centric concept should be very acceptable for us. And Cultural boundaries explain very well middle east. Istanbul is in Europe, Tehran is in Asia and Cairo is in Africa.
Edited by THE TURK
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The Hidden Face
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Posted: 24-Oct-2005 at 05:07 |
As for the topic, Ofcourse Arab.
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kotumeyil
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Posted: 24-Oct-2005 at 05:16 |
I'm not opposing what you say, The Turk. I just mention the physical positioning. We just accept that every place on the earth should be defined with reference to Europe: East of Europe, west of Europe, etc. There's the implicit vision of orientalism is embedded in our brains.
On the other hand, there aren't strict cultural boundaries between peoples. There's always interaction between them. But of course always some feature is dominant in a country or region...
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OSMANLI
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Posted: 24-Oct-2005 at 05:48 |
Those who voted Turks, please explain. Would be interesting to hear why
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Rakhsh
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Posted: 25-Oct-2005 at 08:11 |
Well i would say there is Turkish influence in certain Arab countires maybe not all the Arab wolrd but yes there is some influences on some of them
WHp cares who influenced who the fact is Turkey is a Muslim Sunni country, I hight doubt they even cared back then! To them a muslim was a muslim reardless of background.
We are just pawns in a the game of nationalism the blight on Humanity and our souls
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Never under estimate the predictablity of stupidity! - Bullet Tooth Tony
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Kapikulu
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Posted: 27-Nov-2005 at 18:15 |
They both influenced each other in some different ways. And we can't make a generalisation on that either, each other's culture affected some groups in the one other's country
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We gave up your happiness
Your hope would be enough;
we couldn't find neither;
we made up sorrows for ourselves;
we couldn't be consoled;
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Infidel
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Posted: 27-Nov-2005 at 19:59 |
I think the arab culture influences anyone who is or becomes a muslim. It's almost inevitable - it comes with the package. So I would say the arabs. Because the religion has always been a central part of life, so I guess the turks arabized as well as the persians arabized.
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An nescite quantilla sapientia mundus regatur?
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Hamoudeh
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Posted: 08-Dec-2005 at 22:00 |
I think the subject should be approached a little bit different, and I'll give a few examples of influences by Turks on Arabs in different fields.
1) Turkish words do exist in Arabic dialects, and indeed some people used to know Turkish back in the Ottoman days. My grandfather was a Syrian Arab, and he knew Turkish as well.
2) The crescent moon and star "symbol" were first used by the Ottomans, and are now used worldwide in many ways.
3) In Egypt but most of all Syria, the Hanafi school of jurisprudence has a prominent role because of the Ottomans. The same goes for the Ash`ari school of theology.
4) The Ottoman Caliphate produced many outstanding scholars of Islam that contributed to various Islamic sciences. This influence is not solely on Arabs, but it includes Arabs who rely on these scholars and their contributions.
5) The Ottoman Caliphate left many mosques and influenced others in their design in Arab lands.
This is not to say that the Turks influenced the Arabs more than the Arabs influenced the Turks, but there certainly was influence for the Turks had an important role in the Muslim world for many centuries. As for who conquered who, Islam is what conquered them both. Turks used to be pagan slaves and they became Sultans, while from the Arabs came the Prophet and the Caliphs. The dynamics of religion is what makes it very hard to measure it all between them.
Also, as for Islam being a way of life; in Islam religion is understood as something that is central in all aspects of ones living, inward and outward. This is not something fundamentalist, but something orthodox. If orthodoxy is to be considered fundamentalist, then that is fine by me.
Ma`salam
Edited by Hamoudeh
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Guests
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Posted: 06-Feb-2006 at 23:14 |
Paju, Arabs never conqiered Turks. The Arabic conquests were stopped in the border of Iranic and Turkic lands.
Culturally, Arabs never directly influenced Turks.
Arabs conquered Persians. When Turks conquered Persians, they both gave Turkish culture to their Persian subjects and took Persian culture from their subjects.
But with the Persian culture, the embedded Arabic culture also came.
I know, Turkic Dynasties of Ottomans, Seljuks, Timurids, Safavids, Mamelukes governed Arabs but not all of them.
So in overall both have influences on each other. Turks did not suppress their subjects. We also have Greek, Balkan, Chinese influences too. Overall if you ask, whom influeced us most? Well, Turks of Anatolia are definetely influenced by Romans and Persians. Rest of Turkic world is Persian influenced.
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Guests
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Posted: 06-Feb-2006 at 23:56 |
Actually , Turks were invited by Arabs, Turks did not really conquered Arabs, they just governed them. Strange but really, Abbasid Caliph called Toghril Begh to Baghdad.
Khazars, Gok Turks, Turgish, Karluks fought against Arabs but in the middle of 8th century, peace was restored between Turks and Arabs.
That is why despite the various fanatism on both Turks and Arabs, we really get on well with each other. I personally like them.
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Omar al Hashim
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Posted: 07-Feb-2006 at 02:33 |
Original Turkish culture would have to be Turkic, as in the culture
from Turks in Turkestan (not the modern one, the real one in central
asia). I don't really know how close Turkic and Turkish culture is, but
the difference would be due to Arab, Persian and Greek (Roman if you
prefer) influences on the Turks who moved west.
Also how many Turks are Turkic, and how many are Anatolians who
converted? Because influence between Anatolians and the peoples now
called Arabs goes back thousands of years and make the question very
difficult to answer.
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Seko
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Posted: 07-Feb-2006 at 10:33 |
Side note:
Does anyone know how many Arabic words are used in the Turkish language of Turkey? The more I think about it seems that one could speak Turkish and include an Arabic word in each sentence and not lose a beat. The flow and meaning would remain.
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azimuth
Caliph
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Posted: 07-Feb-2006 at 10:36 |
dont know how many words still there but i read somewhere that Ataturk banned 10,000 words from Turkish language.
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Bashibozuk
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Posted: 07-Feb-2006 at 11:38 |
It is wrong. You can't change a whole language spread from Balkans into Mesopotamia just by a revolution, and Ataturk didn't intend to do that. He wanted to create a new court language that is the same with the regular people's language. So the Turks of the Ottoman Empire have spoke nearly the same amount of Arabic words with modern Turks. Most Arabic words were just used by official documents, that neither an anatolian villager or a Turk in Bosnia used to understand much of it.
So basically, we just purified some of the regular language, just like Egyptians and Syrians did in theirs.
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Garibim, namima Kerem diyorlar,
Asli'mi el almis, harem diyorlar.
Hastayim, derdime verem diyorlar,
Marasli Seyhoglu Satilmis'im ben.
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DayI
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Posted: 07-Feb-2006 at 11:52 |
Originally posted by azimuth
dont know how many words still there but i read somewhere that Ataturk banned 10,000 words from Turkish language. |
Still around 5000 words exists in Turkish, little more then 7000 thousand is persian and the most is french.
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DayI
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Posted: 07-Feb-2006 at 11:53 |
As for the question;
We Turks ruled practically, but arabs and also persians ruled mentally, filosophically.
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