Yes, i know the Turks governed the Arabs thanks to Sultan Selim. although who had the most influence. It seems to me that Turkish culture has had a major impact thanks to the Arabs, although one finds it hard to find such influence on the Arabs by the Turks.

Your thoughts...

Is it Important? Coz u guys are all the same...

I meant in relation to who had the most influence.

Oh please.... Just because he advertises that he is a Muslim?

What is a necessary signature and an unncessary signature? Everyone's signature is up to him as long as it does not intend in bothering others.

Now, going to the question,

  Your poll asked about who conquered who, but your post asks about influence. Conquering is not a sign of influencing. To answer the question per se, I have to ask the following question: Are the Abbassid an Arab empire, and are the Ottomans a Turkish empires? After answring that, we can answer the poll question about who conquered who.

   However, your post question about who has the most influence, i guess Arab had more influence on Turks indirectly (language influence through the Persian borrowed words & embarassing Islam which its Quran being written in Arabic brings language influences, not necessary cultural ones). That is similar to the question of influence between the Latin Romans and many unconquered regions that absorbed Latin influence through adopting Christianity, including language influence through the Vulgate Latin bible.

Every time i send a message, one will also get to see two Turkish Republic flags and two TRNC flags. And yet you do not seem to have a problem with 4 Turkish flags being displayed. The writting of Islams core belief is also displayed in both English and Arabic (its orginal form). Does this meen that i am an Arab? perhaps as there is also english writting that iam trying to be English? Islam is not an ethnicity

Does it in some way offend you? if it does then its time to get over it because i will not be wasting my time again on such comments.

Back to the topic, cok gec some good points and to be honest i did not think of it in that way. In order to clarify the matter shall we agree to say the Turkish and Arab populations and the mentioning of the Ottomans as Turks and the Abbasid as Arab.

Perhaps we could mention the populations as well as the governing systems separatly to see the influence on each of these

it really is hard to find turkish influence on the arabs even with the 1000 year rule of the seljuk and ottomans in the middle east. but i also dont think arabs had too much influence on the turks eathier.

i mean we still speak turkish dont we and even when we used the arabic alphabet, we introduced a few different letters to suit the turkish wordings.

the only influence the turks gained from the arabs was Islam. although the first muslim turk empire converted without arab influence and came from a dream that the sultan had, when he woke up he sed the shahadah. he then invited his people to accept as well in which they quickly accepted. thats what i herd anyway ill look into it a bit more.

Ottoman Turk, how about words such as Merhaba, DÜnya, Kalp, portakal etc. At the moment iam trying to learn Arabic in my spare time and am amazed by the amount of words that the Turkish language has accumalated from the Arabs. Are there any Turkish words in Arabic or any other influence? Any Arabs out there?

All i know is that i have met Algerians that know Turkish as well as northern Iraqis.

Turks and Arabs didn't influence each others directly. Culturally, I cannot speak of, but linguistically, Turks were heavily influenced with Arabic but not from their contact with Arabs. It is with their contact with Persians, which is by itself contains a lot of Arabic vocabularies. Words that Osmanli mentioned and others show an Arabic origin with a Persian pronounciation even after removing 10,000 Arabic original words, you will still notic words such as Zaman, Muhasebe, haber, aþk, Helal sana, tarihi, millet, istiklal...etc

We have to realize that the weak influence of Turkish on Arabic is due only because most of the Ottoman sultans gave the regions under their empire an autonomous status and usually appointed local governers, thus less contact with the central government, its culture, and its language. Also, there was no Turkish immigration to the deep of Arab speaking terretories such as deeper Syria and Egypt or north Africa.

Most people who speaks Turkish are intellectuals and educated old individuals at the time when learning the Turkish language was an advantage in taking high commanding positions in the terretories of Ottoman control, or if they were turkmen immigrant as the turkmen of Iraq.

Osmanli, you can still find a weaker but considerablly clear Turkish influence on Arab language on street dialects, but not the classical arabic. Thus, when many educated people rose up and TV programming such as News..etc was in Classical Arabic, people started using the classical terms to look educated which are again purely Arabic.

You still hear words like Odah (Oda in Turkish)=room, Kushuk (TR=köþk)=a selling koisk, Dosh (TK=Duþ)= Shower Bath,Hanim (TK=Haným), Bey, Afendem...etc.  These are used in street, but when you want to speak in academic sense, TV interview, in a discussion, you want to look educated and so you will use Fus-ha, which is the Arabic Classical Language.

Culturally or geographically? Israel is geographically a middle eastern country, but culturally no.

Originally posted by Barýþ Originally posted by çok geç Culturally or geographically? Israel is geographically a middle eastern country, but culturally no. Why don't you simply put Turkey there instead of Israel and answer my question without asking more questions?

You have to be clear when asking about a definition or classification if you don't want questions back. Be precise in your question, and you will get  precise answers.

I think it is almost no-sense to say Turkey is not a Middle Eastern country. So, don't be so excited for my answer.  My answer will not deviate from that clearly.

I was more interested in defining who is a Middle Eastern. I think culturally, and not geographically. In fact, Libya or Afghanistan have closer cultures to Middle Eastern than Israel for example. Location is just an imaginary border, that is all.

Did anyone here talk about being a Muslim in order to be a Middle Eastern? Follow the posts please. 

Originally posted by Barýþ Hmm, so how is Turkey Middle-Eatern besides being Muslim? .

hmm, culture and geography? It is obvious.  Anyhow, if you disagree with it, sure. If you think Turkey is not a middle eastern country, no one really cares. But as I said earlier, it is almost "non-sense".

I have no clue what you are thinking here. The English is not clear, but are you saying the Middle East is only a desert? Is this a new theory? Lebanon by the way has no desert, what shall we do with Lebanon? count it part of Europe or Africa?

Baris said

Anyway, I don't Turkey is geographically Middle-Eastern, because Middle-East is simply a desert.

the middle east is from anatolia, syria and mesapotamia(iraq) in the north. Down to arabia and yemen to the south. Iran and even Afghanistan to the east and could sometimes involve egypt in the west aswell.

sorry buddy, no matter what u think, Turkey is most definately a middle eastern country. if ur talking geography. theres nothing wrong with that!

hmmm... nice question/thread....  answering you I would  say Arabs...

And another yes, that is Arabs and Turks are so simmilar... sometimes{not always though} you can't tell who is who... Let alone they both mixed with other poeple{and each others}... 

However, Turks  later had lots of affectes on Arabs...

sorry, if I confused you even more arkadas..

By the way, Im laughing at you, not with you.

Both culturally and geographically Turkey, Egypt and Iran (Istanbul, Cairo, Tehran) are the centre of middle east. This is a fact. Not an opinion.

LOL @ Super Goat (^_^)

guys theres no need to have this discussion we are all middle eastern and as THE TURK siad "This is a fact. Not an opinion"  

get back to the orignal topic please, who influenced who more, Turks or Arabs.

"Middle East" is a subjective concept created by the Western Europe. Eastern Europe was considered as the Near East, Asia Minor, Arabia, Iran, etc. were cosidered as Middle East and the rest was "Far East" and we, the "Middle Easterners" still use this Euro-centric concept. We define ourselves according to Europe. America is more eastern than Japan. Why don't we call there Far Far East?

As for the topic, Arabic culture has a stronger but indirect influence in the cultural sphere but in the political sphere Turkish influence was stronger since the Abbasid times...

Kotumeyil, look at your country's name, Who has named Turkey (Turkiye)? The West or the Turks? So Euro-Centric concept should be very acceptable for us. And Cultural boundaries explain very well middle east. Istanbul is in Europe, Tehran is in Asia and Cairo is in Africa.

I'm not opposing what you say, The Turk. I just mention the physical positioning. We just accept that every place on the earth should be defined with reference to Europe: East of Europe, west of Europe, etc. There's the implicit vision of orientalism is embedded in our brains.

On the other hand, there aren't strict cultural boundaries between peoples. There's always interaction between them. But of course always some feature is dominant in a country or region... 

Well i would say there is Turkish influence in certain Arab countires maybe not all the Arab wolrd but yes there is some influences on some of them

WHp cares who influenced who the fact is Turkey is a Muslim Sunni country, I hight doubt they even cared back then! To them a muslim was a muslim reardless of background.

We are just pawns in a the game of nationalism the blight on Humanity and our souls

I think the subject should be approached a little bit different, and I'll give a few examples of influences by Turks on Arabs in different fields.

1) Turkish words do exist in Arabic dialects, and indeed some people used to know Turkish back in the Ottoman days. My grandfather was a Syrian Arab, and he knew Turkish as well.

2) The crescent moon and star "symbol" were first used by the Ottomans, and are now used worldwide in many ways.

3) In Egypt but most of all Syria, the Hanafi school of jurisprudence has a prominent role because of the Ottomans. The same goes for the Ash`ari school of theology.

4) The Ottoman Caliphate produced many outstanding scholars of Islam that contributed to various Islamic sciences. This influence is not solely on Arabs, but it includes Arabs who rely on these scholars and their contributions.

5) The Ottoman Caliphate left many mosques and influenced others in their design in Arab lands.

This is not to say that the Turks influenced the Arabs more than the Arabs influenced the Turks, but there certainly was influence for the Turks had an important role in the Muslim world for many centuries. As for who conquered who, Islam is what conquered them both. Turks used to be pagan slaves and they became Sultans, while from the Arabs came the Prophet and the Caliphs. The dynamics of religion is what makes it very hard to measure it all between them.

Also, as for Islam being a way of life; in Islam religion is understood as something that is central in all aspects of ones living, inward and outward. This is not something fundamentalist, but something orthodox. If orthodoxy is to be considered fundamentalist, then that is fine by me.

Ma`salam

Paju, Arabs never conqiered Turks. The Arabic conquests were stopped in the border of Iranic and Turkic lands.

Culturally, Arabs never directly influenced Turks.

Arabs conquered Persians. When Turks conquered Persians, they both gave Turkish culture to their Persian subjects and took Persian culture from their subjects.

But with the Persian culture, the embedded Arabic culture also came.

I know, Turkic Dynasties of Ottomans, Seljuks, Timurids, Safavids, Mamelukes governed Arabs but not all of them.

So in  overall both have influences on each other.  Turks did not suppress their subjects. We also have Greek, Balkan, Chinese influences too. Overall if you ask, whom influeced us most? Well, Turks of Anatolia are definetely influenced by Romans and Persians. Rest of Turkic world is Persian influenced.

Actually , Turks were invited by Arabs, Turks did not really conquered Arabs, they just governed them. Strange but really, Abbasid Caliph called Toghril Begh to Baghdad.

Khazars, Gok Turks, Turgish, Karluks fought against Arabs but in the middle of 8th century, peace was restored between Turks and Arabs.

That is why despite the various fanatism on both Turks and Arabs, we really get on well with each other. I personally like them.

Side note:

Does anyone know how many Arabic words are used in the Turkish language of Turkey? The more I think about it seems that one could speak Turkish and include an Arabic word in each sentence and not lose a beat. The flow and meaning would remain.  

It is wrong. You can't change a whole language spread from Balkans into Mesopotamia just by a revolution, and Ataturk didn't intend to do that. He wanted to create a new court language that is the same with the regular people's language. So the Turks of the Ottoman Empire have spoke nearly the same amount of Arabic words with modern Turks. Most Arabic words were just used by official documents, that neither an anatolian villager or a Turk in Bosnia used to understand much of it.

So basically, we just purified some of the regular language, just like Egyptians and Syrians did in theirs.

As for the question;

We Turks ruled practically, but arabs and also persians ruled mentally, filosophically.

Now Im asking you,

Have you ever seen an arab wearing a furcap with a recurved composite bow in hand? anywhere in the world?

though ALL OF YOU know that turks had used turban and fez for a time period...

I think it explains everything

Turban is not an Arabic tradition. It was also used by Persians and Indians. What is your point? It is not even an Islamic tradition, non-Muslim Indians use turban too.

For the recurved composite bow, after the Turkic conquests, Arabs did not involve in military issues.

For the fez, wasn' t it a moorish invention? Moors are not Arabs, they are not even Semitic, am I correct?

Islam is not equal to Arab, it has many civilizations in it, Sumerian, Egyptian, and off course Persian, and even Greeks, and yet Turkic-Mongoloid nomadic culture (grammar rules for instance).

Using Arabic words does not make us Arabs, like we use many Greek words or French words. It is always like that, older civilization all the time influences the younger. Greeks influenced Romans, Romans influenced Germanics. Off course these were just influences.

Bleh i won't vote.

This just incites tension. I think both influenced each other equally. But thats my opinion.

Actually the Ottoman 'Osmanli' language was the politacal language. However the Ottoman language was heavily influenced by Arabic along with Persian.

Seko:

It is hard to differentiate the impact one group has over another. This thread is the type that eventually ends up with a battle of egos.

That trully was not my intention upon opening this thread. The Arabic and Turkish cultures are so similar that it would be good to learn from were the similarities originated from. AE is the perfect place to find this out with the high numbers of both Turks and Arabs. So far this topic is in its 4th page and so much has been revealed to us.

Topic is just a topic ..But we The TURKS had been protector of the Islam, and we will save u again.

This is just a post to incite, they have much common history and most it pretty ok. I think even in the Great Mosque of Mecca(where hajj is performed) there are large sections remaining built by turks.

"This is just a post to incite"

Firstly look at who made this post. You will see that it is i, Osmanli. Have you even read any of my threads? If so you would know that i am not anti-Arab. I speak for what i belive to be true. Even at times upsetting many of the Turks. So dont try and claim that i created this post to incite.

The argument of who conquered who is one that even many historians discuss. Those that have an imature level of nationalism should leave this forum. The topic should not be condemend.

Hint: Read the pages prior, you may learn new things.

 "they have much common history and most it pretty ok"

Turkic and Arab culture in its pure form is not similar. This common history inwhich there was influences from both sides is what this topic is about. Ofcourse we know that the Turks conquered the Arabs, but the title is not meant to be taken literally and on the whole all the posters for this topic realised this.

"I think even in the Great Mosque of Mecca(where hajj is performed) there are large sections remaining built by turks."

There we go, now even you are contributing. Hope to hear more constructive information soon

I think what you mean is Berber. Since a Moor is someone of mixed Berber and Arab heritage. They make up the majority in old Berber lands (Algeria, Tunisia, Morroco)

Although your right about the fez not being a Turkish invention.

Both conquered each other... Except for Morocco who was never occupated by the [HUGE] Ottoman Empire.

Cheers. 

I have to say, my hometown has an interesting flag

http://img406.imageshack.us/my.php?image=35627594uae1222mv.jpg">

A part of modern day Morocco was however was part of the Ottoman Empire.

Fizzil which flag is that

Does any of you know if sweets such as Baklawa is eaten in the wider Turkic world?

Because i know that both Arabs and Turks share many foods.

Osmanli,

I am not sure that "a part" of modern morocco was under Ottoman ruling, under influence (the whole Moroccan Sultana at the time), that's for sure.

It is for that reason that we don't have (we eat it very rarely) Baklawa as they do in Algeria or Tunis. The same goes for Narguile.  

Cheers Kardas. 

The problem with maps of the Ottoman empire is that they always have diffrences.

I just checked, and although diffrent maps show diffrent things. It is most likely that you are right.

One thing is for certain the Morrocan Sultanate was never under Ottoman control.

"It is for that reason that we don't have (we don't eat it very rarely) Baklawa as they do in Algeria or Tunis. The same goes for Narguile.  "

Are you Morrocan Sedamoun?

Cheers akhi.

My father is from Northern Morocco, not far from the Tangiers. It is a very nice country, I have a huge family over there.

I very much liked Turkey, very rich from a cultural point of view, and the people are very generous and welcoming. I did quite the touring.

Halevi, where were you in morocco?

yaþamak ve saðlýklý olmak.

It is you, indeed; one of the few favorite posters of mine!

But I must add, Osmanli:  This thread does seem "insightful."

There are many kinds of berbers in north Africa (in Algeria - Kabyls and Morocco - Chlouh in arabic).

The southern ones are more dark skinned than the ones living in the Atlas mountains for example, or the Kabyls in Eastern Algeria who frankly look more like euro-mediteraneans than middle-eastern (or arab).

The "Arabs" in North Africa are the result, as Halevi said it, of Muslim conquerors mixing with the local Berber tribes.

The most important "Moor" dynasties, Almohad and Almoravid, were both Berber.

The Almohad Dynasty (From Arabic الموحدون al-Muwahhidun, i.e. "the monotheists" or "the Unitarians," the name being corrupted in Spanish) were a Berber Muslim religious power which founded the fifth Moorish dynasty in the 12th century, and conquered all northern Africa as far as Egypt, together with Muslim Spain.

Almoravides (In Arabic المرابطو 06; al-Murabitun, sing. مرابط Murabit), is a Berber dynasty from the Sahara which, in the 11th century. Under this dynasty the Moorish empire was extended over Morocco, Gibraltar ,Tlemcen (in modern Algeria) and a great part of Spain and Portugal. The name is derived from the Arabic Murabit, variously translated as religious ascetic or warrior monk.

MOORS: The name derives from the old tribe of the Mauri and their kingdom, Mauretania. It became a Roman province after its last king Bocchus II willed it to Caesar Augustus in 33 BC. Mauretania lay in present-day Morocco and Western Algeria, and must not be confused with the country of Mauritania, which lies more to the south. The name of Mauri was applied by the Romans to all North African natives who were still ruled by their own chiefs, until the 3rd century. The Islamic conquest of Iberia was undertaken by the Moors of the Umayyad caliphate in 711. The Arab Umayyad dynasty of Damascus was transplanted to Muslim Spain, and was responsible for the incorporation of much of the culture and architecture from the old Umayyad capital.

In AD 711, the Moors invaded Visigoth Christian Spain. Under their Berber leader Tariq ibn-Ziyad, they landed at Gibraltar on April 30 and brought most of the Iberian Peninsula under Islamic rule in an eight-year campaign. They attempted to move northeast across the Pyrenees Mountains toward France, but were defeated by the Frankish Christian Charles Martel at the Battle of Tours in 732. The Moors ruled in North Africa, Spain and Portugal (except for small areas in the northwest and largely Basque regions in the Pyrenees) for seven hundred years.

Cheers.

-------------

What makes bellydancing just Arabic? It is a common culture of Middle East, and expanded even until Greece, Balkans, North Africa etc.

Hummus is an Arabic dish, though there are many dishes we share and origins aren't much definate at all. Such as the mezes like Baba Gannush, very popular in Syria, and Turkish origined for sure.

And what about shoarma?

Again, a regional culture, not national for Arabs or any others.

That is definately not Arabic. Though no Arab states use those today except Tunusia and Algeria, which were heavily influenced by Ottomans for several reasons, both cultural and historical.

The word may be Arabic in origin, but baths in hammam style are inherited from the Roman/Byzanthine culture, not Arabic.

Arabs have never conquered Turkic lands, but many different Turkic empires did conquer most of the Arabic lands in history. From Turgish to Seljuks, and to Ottoman Empire. Culturally, they both shared many cultural elements from each other, as the result of centuries of life together. And Islam, of course...

Osmanli, that flag is the official flag of Umm al Quwain, in the UAE.

Looks like a rip off flag of turkey but with a white rectangular thing on the left of it  

Could be very possibly ottoman influence you know!

Shukran Fizzil

BasiBozuk. When you say regional surely the culture was started by a people of a land. So it would be much more interesting to see who started such customs.

"BTW, when you say 'Turk', do you mean the people of Anatolia or the nomadic Turkic speaking peoples who came in successive waves from Central Asia? Or do you mean the Ottomans, specifically? "

Hmm. How about we concentrate on Ottoman Turks and Arab influence, however adding Turkic peoples would also add depth. Lets just put anything relevent and of interest

O and before i forget Jazaki to Mira for your lovely comments

There is little direct Arabic influence on Turks. Turks got Islam and the Arabic words and literature from Iran. This was before the Seljuk's and later Ottomans' invasion of Arab lands, because we see the same Islamic terms in Turkic languages of Central Asia, where the Seljuks and Oghuz originally came from.

Also, many of these Arabic/Islamic terms and words in Turkish are pronounced the same way as in Persian, which further shows that they came from Persian. Some dont even exist in Arabic, such as 'namaz'.

Looking at the Ottoman Empire, it was found 200 years before invading Arabia. For the Ottomans, Arab lands were not central, they were peripheral, and their cultural influence was limited. Unlike the Balkans (Byzantine culture) and Anatolia (Byzantine, Oghuz and Iranian culture), which were the cultural and economical heartland. 

Simply looking at the Ottoman empire is limiting the Tukish/Arab relations though. The Seljuks had significant relations with Arabs.

I do agree however on your point about many Arabic influences coming though Iran.

Request: Digines i would very much like to hear your contribution. However please could you stay with the topic. Thanks 

Arabs never conquered Turks. They just took the provinces of Turkish states like Azerbaijan (From Khazars) and Soghdia (From Gok Turks). In those days, Iranic people were living in those regions. Turks reconquered those lands in the 10th and 11th centuries and off course after that, Turkified the regions.

Turks also did not conquer Arabs literally. Seljuks were invited by Arabic Caliph to Iraq. Seljuks kicked the Shiite Buwayhids, restored the Sunni order. After that all Sunnite Arabs except Andulucians became reluctantly the subject of Seljuk Turks. So we can not consider this a real conquest.

THe Shiite Arabs were conquered by Zengi or his lieutenant Salahaddin Eyyubi. Zengi was Turk, though we discussed the origin of Salahaddin and could not agree.

Anyway, Mameluke Turks, who were sold to fatimids by Seljuks, soon regained the control over the Ayyubids. In between 12th and 18th centuries, all Muslims, except Moroccans,  some Arabic Beduins in the central part of Arabian Peninsula, and Indonesians, were under the control of Turkic Dynasties such as Ottomans, Seljuks, Safavids, Khwarezmians, Timurids, Sheep series states , Mamelukes, Timurids, Baburids, Shaybanids, Afsarids, etc...

Turks actually rivalled by Turks themselves in the Islamic era. Turks controlling Roman lands all the time struggled with the Turk governing Iran. It was like the old days of Romans and Parthians/Sassanids, or even Greeks and Persians.

Arabs and Turks had considerably minor conflicts. Yes Khazars and Arabic Caliphate fought for 100 years but, in my opinion, must be considered in the minor importance. And as I have told you, Turkish expansions in the Arabic world is relatively peaceful. The disagreements happened for the sections of Islam. Actually it was not the Turks, but the Sunni Islamic Seljuk forces who was expanding and suppressing the Shiites.

The question is deceiving, people think the question as military.

Azimuth, I think, lets add the word "culture" to the topic, like:

Who conquered who, culturally? Arabs or Turks?

Take care

i cannot do that without the authorization of the author of the this thread.

There is no need my freind, if i may show you my opening comments on page 1:

"Yes, i know the Turks governed the Arabs thanks to Sultan Selim. although who had the most influence. It seems to me that Turkish culture has had a major impact thanks to the Arabs, although one finds it hard to find such influence on the Arabs by the Turks.

Your thoughts..."

Digenis i see what you mean. Just as the Greeks were militaristicaly ruled by the Romans. However the Greeks by far were dominant in relation to infuence. Nice example, i think it wraps it up perfectly although as far as i know the Arabs themselves did not gain many important roles in the empire. The Greeks however were important for being doctors in the Roman empire.