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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Romans vs Germans
    Posted: 06-Nov-2005 at 13:27

The only reasons battle like Carrhae and Adrianople are so famous is because they are so unique and rare...That is, Romans loosing so badly...Overall they did have the best system and the most successAnd there were many other great powers too...Germans, Persians, and Ottomans...etc.



Edited by Komnenos with an unofficial warning sent via PM.

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  Quote ulrich von hutten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Nov-2005 at 12:02
however , who knows the really fellings ,ideas and aims of the germans. they couldnt wrote down neither their  history nor their thoughts. but at 9ac they defeated the roman legions at the so called varus-battle. the victory was surely not a sign of the german dominanc , but of the roman ignoranc. but latest excravations at kalriese ,the place it happens ,shown that there were no german countrymen ,who beat the romans , but well trained germans in roman uniforms. let their bones rest in peace and think to the second italian - german battle in 1970 wc in mexico.






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  Quote Janissary Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Oct-2005 at 12:33

I am an exchange student in USA, so I am not as good as u

ok??

sorry

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  Quote Heraclius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Oct-2005 at 00:07

 When I make mistakes I just sneakily edit my post

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  Quote Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2005 at 23:09
It's alright, Janissary. Everyone makes mistakes.
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  Quote Janissary Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2005 at 22:37
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  Quote Heraclius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2005 at 11:30

 Carrhae is a tired example by now Janissary, it wasnt even Romes heaviest defeat or one of the most important in the grand scale of the history of the empire. Infinitely outweighed by the fact the Persian capital was turned into little more than a source of loot for the Romans.

 Septimius Severus sacked Ctesiphon in 197AD, suffice to say Ctesiphon was sacked and captured many times by the Romans. Its also worth pointing out Heraclius won the last great war between these two ancient titans the Roman/Byzantine empire and the Sassanids in the 7th century, just prior to the arrival on the scene of the Arabs.

 Anyway that isnt particularly important, since we could go on all day about the Romans capturing a city the Parthians/Sassasnids taking another etc and it would become very tedious.

 Janissary "http://fixedreference.org/en/20040424/wikipedia/Marius

30 000 ROMANS were killed in Sextiae

less than 1000

hmmmm

30 000 < 1000

What was grade from MAth???Or u have problem with History???"

 I believe the problem is with your English Janissary, not Belisarius' math. Please show more respect.

 From that link you gave it says;

 "The leading contingent of the Germans, the Ambrones, foolishly attacked the Roman position without waiting for re-enforcements and 30,000 were killed."

 That says 30,000 Ambrones died not Romans like you said, so read it carefully next time before spouting off.

 Examples have been given of massive victories the Roman army gained over equally massive German armies, clearly showing the general superiority of the Roman armed forces to the Germanic armies of the time.

 The Germans scored victories against Rome, the Teutoburg forest and Adrianople are the most famous, but Romes defeats are always more famous than her victories. Try as Belisarius pointed out the battle of Aquae Sextiae, Vecallae, and then theres Naissus and lake Benacus.

 There are other German and Roman victories, to list them all would be pointless, my point is that everybody revels in the defeats Rome suffered, but conveniantly ignore Romes victories. Everybody has heard of Carrhae god knows we never hear the end of it from you Janissary, but how many people know much about Naissus? Lake Benacus? why arent these even greater battles as famous as Romes famous defeat at Carrhae? Seems there is more bias against Rome than there is for.

 Finally Janissary, I hope you realise I have no personal stake in this, by that I mean you can criticise the Roman empire/army all you wish, it doesnt bother me in the slightest aslong as your criticism is correct and justified. As impartial a view as possible is what I want, ive never tried to play down defeats like Adrianople, why would I? its well known fact it was a massive defeat and exposed Roman weakness, I could just as easily continue pointing out how weak Parthia once was against Rome in Trajans day, could easily point out that the Sassanids were defeated by Byzantium in the last great war between them. It goes both ways.

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  Quote Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2005 at 10:42
You're awfully hostile you know that? Whether you are Persian or not has nothing to do with my argument. I am merely stating the superiority of the Romans over the Persians. Never once did I state that the Roman Empire was superior to all empires.

It seems you misunderstood what you read.
"The leading contingent of the Germans, the Ambrones, foolishly attacked the Roman position without waiting for re-enforcements and 30,000 were killed."

The Ambrones were the ones who foolishly attacked the Roman position without waiting for reinforcements. 30,000 Ambrones were killed.

My math grades are quite high, thank you, but not as high as my history marks.
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  Quote Janissary Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2005 at 00:17

http://fixedreference.org/en/20040424/wikipedia/Marius

30 000 ROMANS were killed in Sextiae

less than 1000

hmmmm

30 000 < 1000

What was grade from MAth???

Or u have problem with History???

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  Quote Janissary Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2005 at 00:10

I am not Persian

Turkish Captured your Canstantionople and just ince, untill today

How many Byzans Armies was became martyrs Becouse of Arabs, Sassanids, Khazars, Avars, Bulgars, Slavians??????

How many times Did Rome took Ctesifon????

Trayan????

What about VAlerian that laid under the legs of Shapur and prayed him to let him freee????????

Thank u for links, lets do not talk about battles that were won, becouse, if it was an empire, then it needed to won a battles in order to be

Why u do not talk about weakness of that empire

That would be better discussion

I kniow why, becouse, u will answer:

-there was no weak parts of Roman empire-

That is why Italy was under the horses of Hannibal 14 years????

that is why, more than 250 000 roman Princeps and Hastatiis died there, becouse Roma was not wea?????

Come on, be truthfull, nobody will hurt u, Just think

think that Romas was good, But was not the bes, and think why I think so

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  Quote Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Oct-2005 at 23:58
Sure! Always happy to direct a fellow history buff to the wonders of Wikipedia!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Aquae_Sextiae

and...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Vercellae

However, I see we are back to the Persians vs the Romans. Let me ask you this. How many times did the Romans and Byzantines capture Ctesiphon? From that I ask how many times did the Persians capture Rome? How many times did they capture Constantinople?

Ctesiphon was captured by Roman or Byzantine forces five times. Rome and Constantinople... zero.


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  Quote Janissary Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Oct-2005 at 23:56

Carrhae:

30000 romans killed including 10 000 preatorian

10000 were sent to captivity

Less than 500 Parthians died

But, i am ok/

Give me a link, I wanna learn about those battles

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  Quote Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Oct-2005 at 23:43
I have the perfect example of such an event. It is known as the Battle of Vercellae, fought in 101 BCE. This battle between the Roman Republic and the Germanic Cimbri was fought in Cisalpine, Gaul. The Cimbri numbered over 200,000 while the Romans had about 50,000 men under Gaius Marius. The Romans won a spectacular victory, killing 140,000 and taking the rest prisoner, all the while losing less than a thousand men.

There is another such event fought in Gaul in the previous year, 102 BCE, known as the Battle of Aquae Sextiae. In this battle, 110,000 Teutones faced about 40,000 Romans under Gaius Marius once more. This too was a spectacular victory with 90,000 Teutones killed, and the rest captured. The Romans lost less than a thousand men.
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  Quote Janissary Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Oct-2005 at 21:32

Yeah, off cource, u will have no any information about it

Ok, Heraclius, Tell me The name of the battle That was More Than against 100 000 germans and Rome lost less than a thousand

Thell me The general that fought that battle, please

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  Quote Heraclius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Oct-2005 at 13:37

 The size of an empire isnt always particularly relevant, the Roman empire was big enough, it had no need to extend its territory, it had everything what else was there to gain? it was incredibly rich, had a large population, it had many natural frontiers which could be easily defended if adequately guarded.

 All that would of happened is the Roman empire would have had to pay a fortune to conquer new territory, occupy it with legions, hold it and begin the process of romanization for little to no gain.

 Being a Roman obviously doesnt make you more courageous just because your a Roman. However the vastly superior training, discipline and equipment gave the legionary supreme confidence that he would prevail against any and all enemies.

 The Germans were incredibly brave, but often lacked organisation this largely negated the fact that the Germans were excellent individual fighters, because they were charging into a mass of legionaries who were trained to cut them to pieces and more often than not, did just that.

 The legions could defeat Germanic armies of 100,000 or more and only lose a couple of thousands themselves. That says something about how deadly a force the Roman legion could be.

 It took centuries for the Germans to get the upper hand on Rome, by then Rome was way WAY past its best.

 

 

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  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Oct-2005 at 03:09
Originally posted by Janissary

And do not forget the 260 year battle, when Valerian laid under knees of Persian King and felt sorry for Atacking Sassanid empire

And remember Attila, crossing Po River, meeting Pop Leo and returning back without destroyong Rome in 452.

So, There was times that Sassanids made Empire bigger thatn Rome, or Arabians, maybe 1.5 times bigger, or Gokturks, may be 2 times bigger and Chinese TAN, may be 2 tuimes beggier and 2 times stronger than Rome

That is why I prefer Germans

But, Heraclius, I liked your 1 word-That Romans were not better in Courage than Garmans!!!

Good Spoken



To be honest I completely dismiss any theory that Attila could have taken Rome even if he did march on it in 452.
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  Quote Janissary Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Oct-2005 at 22:16

And do not forget the 260 year battle, when Valerian laid under knees of Persian King and felt sorry for Atacking Sassanid empire

And remember Attila, crossing Po River, meeting Pop Leo and returning back without destroyong Rome in 452.

So, There was times that Sassanids made Empire bigger thatn Rome, or Arabians, maybe 1.5 times bigger, or Gokturks, may be 2 times bigger and Chinese TAN, may be 2 tuimes beggier and 2 times stronger than Rome

That is why I prefer Germans

But, Heraclius, I liked your 1 word-That Romans were not better in Courage than Garmans!!!

Good Spoken

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  Quote Heraclius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Oct-2005 at 11:57

 The Parthians goals appear to have been little more than raiding Roman territory, obviously they knew their own limitations which is always a good thing. The Sassanids were a real menace in the east and definately a threat to likes of Asia Minor and Syria and more, the Sassinids took over at the perfect time, the Roman empire was on the verge of entering the most traumatic time in its history the crisis of the 3rd century, seeing the Roman empire almost collapse. The Roman empire then and after was almost constantly in civil war, economic crisis and suffering from massive barbarian invasions as the decline of the army increased more and more.

 Your right Belisarius about the Sassanids wish to restore the empire back to where it was under the Achaemenid empire.

 "Shapur King of Kings, brother of the sun and moon, sends salutation. Your own authors are witness that the entire territory within the river Strymon and the borders of Macedon was once held by my forefathers; were I require you to restore all this, it would not become ill of me... but because I take delight in moderation I shall be content to recieve Mesopotamia and Armenia"

 A letter from obviously King Shapur to the then Emperor Constantius in 360 I believe, suffice to say Constantius did not hand over any territory to Shapur. However it clearly shows the intentions of the Sassanids to reclaim territory they believed to be rightfully theirs. Undoubtedly Armenia and Mesopotamia would have been used to launch campaigns into Roman territory in the future making this *reconquest* a far more realistic goal.



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  Quote Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Oct-2005 at 11:23
It was never the intention of the Parthians or the Sassanids to conquer the whole Roman Empire. I am not sure about the Parthians' goals but the Sassanids wanted to restore the borders of the old Achaemenid Empire. The Sassanids were a serious contender for the rule of the eastern provinces.

Really, it is all about leadership. Both empires had their share of capable rulers, but it was the Sassanids that were unable to produce a continuous line of capable rulers. The Romans, with their much better resources, could stand to bear with a few incompetent emperors, but not the Sassanids.
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  Quote Heraclius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Oct-2005 at 10:32

 Nobody has tried to make out that the Romans were superior right throughout their history, at one time it was defeated by the Gauls and Rome itself was captured, there was a time when Rome had no decent navy and Carthage ruled the seas, there were times when Greek armies could dominate the legion on the battlefield. Pyrrhus of Epirus for example.

 Rome over time adapted, overcame and conquered the Gauls, destroyed Carthages navy and eventually the Carthaginian empire, survived Pyrrhus captured the Greek territories in south Italy and eventually conquered Macedonia and ruled the Greeks overall. Then onto the Diodochi in the east Selceucia being the biggest.

 The relationship between Parthia and then the Sassinids and Rome was one of fluctuating fortunes, a civil war for example could give the Parthians a great oppounity to raid Imperial territory and loot a few cities before the imperial army could return. The same the way when a poor ruler or weakened Parthia was about Rome could avenge the earlier raids by weakening its ancient foe further perhaps sacking the Parthian capital again and setting up puppet kings as a buffer.

 The difference is between Rome and the Parthians it the Parthians never threatened the existance of the Roman empire, they could raid and at times conquer territory such as Armenia, parts of Syria, Mesopotamia the Holyland etc. But the imperial armies would then return and either drive the Parthians out or the Parthians would withdraw rather than give battle.

 Never did the Parthians have a chance of actually conquering the Roman empire, the Roman armies were to big and powerful, its population much much larger than the Parthians and then Sassinids controlled, Rome was also fantastically wealthy. It could afford to replace armies it had the population to do it and the funds to pay for it.

 The Huns were a flash in the pan when it comes to Rome, they looted alot of cities and territory defeated alot of Barbarians and had its confrontations with Rome. Rome had had this for centuries already anyway, during the crisis of the 3rd century things were much much worse, by the time the Huns arrived the western Roman empire was as good as doomed anyway. But the Hunnic empire collapsed and were actually then used by the same empire they had once fought against, as mercenaries, the Byzantine empire used Huns in its mercenary forces in the North African campaigns and in Italy.

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