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Help! Tatar versus Tartar

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  Quote Kubrat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Help! Tatar versus Tartar
    Posted: 03-Oct-2004 at 10:18
Ohhhh, the Cumans..

You always spell things differently than I'm used to .

As for the Tatar language, that is used in Tatarstan?
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2004 at 13:21
The official languages of Tatarstan are the Tatar language and Russian.  I believe that Tatarstan is changing their alphabet from Cyrillic to the Latin alphabet.
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  Quote ihsan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2004 at 14:11
Hehe Kubrat, you can write it with many ways but they would still be pronounced in the same way. Examples are Kpak, Kypchak, Qypchaq, Qpchaq, Kipchak, etc...
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  Quote Kubrat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Oct-2004 at 18:41

I believe that Tatarstan is changing their alphabet from Cyrillic to the Latin alphabet.

They used the latin characters between 1929 - 1929, when Stalin imposed Cyrillic on them.  In 2001, they switched to a modified version of Latin.

Hehe Kubrat, you can write it with many ways but they would still be pronounced in the same way. Examples are Kpak, Kypchak, Qypchaq, Qpchaq, Kipchak, etc...

Well, it still looks different.  .  It's usually because of trivialities like these, though, that many historical inaccuracies are made.
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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Oct-2004 at 19:52
oh BTW, I finally found out why Qypchak are said to be blond. obviously Kuman translates as yellow and some historician must have assuemd that actually refers to hair colour...
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Nov-2004 at 18:04
If this message board is still open, I'd like to post some questions
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Nov-2004 at 18:06
About Tatarstan and Volga Bulgaria
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Nov-2004 at 18:18
The connection seems much stronger, than it's officially admitted! It's interesting how Tatarstan is such a stable republic in an unstable region! The same as Danube Bulgaria on the Balkans!
I think that the fact itself is very interesting, if the historical facts are not!
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  Quote Akskl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Nov-2004 at 23:05
Tatars were always Turkic-speaking tribe (or people) - both before Genghis Khan (see Orkhon inscriptions), and after Genghis Khan times, and they are Turkic speaking peoples now too. As well as Naimans, Kereits, Jalairs,  Qongirrats, Qypchaks/Polovtsy/Cumans, Qangly, etc.  -  parts of the modern Kazaks (or Kazakhs - i.e. in Russian spelling).
Westerners always called all the Steppe Turkic-speaking tribes as "Tartars" - without detailing who is who within them, same as in mediaeval times everybody called all the West Europeans as "Franks".  Even now most of the Western historians do not realize the importance of the tribes/clans (military unions) and tribal origins of the Steppe historical figures (except Rene Grousset, Igor de Rachewiltz, and few other serious historians).   
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  Quote ihsan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Dec-2004 at 13:21

The Tatars before the time of Chinggis Khaan got nothing to do with the Tatars of Eastern Europe (15th-21th c.). The Pre-13th century Tatars of Mongolia were a Mongolic people related with other Mongolic peoples such as the Khitans, Tataby, Shiwei, etc.

The Jalairs and Unggirrats were Mongol clans too.

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  Quote xi_tujue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Aug-2006 at 08:39
Originally posted by Skolotai

Originally posted by Temujin

tatar is the name for the tribe that was subdued by Chingis Khan, Tartar is the word used by the European west (especially Russians) for all Mongols.
Are ye crazy or what? There is no word in russian as tartar or similar,tatar is the right form.Tartar is the invention of europeans,as ye.AngryAngryAngry(Stop tellin' bullsh*t,dude.I don't think ye know russian.)
wow such a bright lad you are 9 post ab allready calling post of teh mods bullClap.
 
btw what do russians call them
I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage
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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Aug-2006 at 09:37
Skolotai's post today was offensive and removed. Such language will lead to removal of membership if it continues.
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  Quote Akskl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Aug-2006 at 15:42
All the above-mentioned so-called "Mongol" tribes of Genghis Khan spoke TURKIC language. Please read beginning of the book below (click on the right edge of the page):

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0631189491/ref=sib_dp_pt/102-8945389-6424103#reader-link


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  Quote gok_toruk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2006 at 12:16

Turkic inscriptions classified Tatars as a Turkic group which had a good relationshp with Oghuzes. In fact, they, many times, united to defend each other.

Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.
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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2006 at 12:27
gok toruk, do you have any info or links on the pre-Cengiz Tatars? Thats a part of their history I'm deficient in.

The Tatars of Cengiz's time was a confederation that included his tribe of the Borchigin. But that means that tribe was part of what is later called Mongol.
After leaving the forest areas they, Borchigin, teamed up with pastoral nomad Tatars, who were most likely Dadan/Shao'to.
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  Quote gok_toruk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2006 at 12:35
See, though they were part of Mongol horde, the name (with this spelling and using two tough 't's) is somehow not valid in a Mongol's tongue. Ask Mongols (as I've asked my Mongol friends online) and they will say it's kind of an accent.
 
I mostly buy books, rather than searching for stuff online. At least, they would be part of my archives. So, for the time being, I really can't help sorry. But, I'm about to finish my research I've been recently working on. I'll be able provide you a few links, I suppose, in 2 or 3 days.


Edited by gok_toruk - 28-Aug-2006 at 12:37
Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.
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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2006 at 12:38
Thanks for the quick response. I'll wait for the links when your done with your research.
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  Quote gok_toruk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Sep-2006 at 03:46
1- History of Mongols (3 Vol.) ___ Sir H. Haworth

2- Social Organization of Mongol - Turkic Pastoral Nomads - L. Krader
Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.
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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Sep-2006 at 10:58
Thanks for the resources, gt. I don't think I'll but the last book. It costs too much. I'll check the library instead.

Edited by Seko - 03-Sep-2006 at 10:58
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  Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Sep-2006 at 12:24
Originally posted by gok_toruk

Turkic inscriptions classified Tatars as a Turkic group which had a good relationshp with Oghuzes. In fact, they, many times, united to defend each other.

 
Can you provide us the exact quote from the inscription that classified them as Turkic people except the designation of Turkic number? 
 
I'd agree with Seko that they had mixed nature.  It seems, according to another mongol forumers explanation of the word, they were a confederacy of nomadic Mongol and Turkic tribes.  If they self designated themselves with a Mongolic word, then there is no reason to say they were exclusively or mainly Turkic tribes.
 
 
Either make a history or become a history.
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