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Help! Tatar versus Tartar

Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: Ethnic History of Central Asia
Forum Discription: Discussions about the ethnic origins of Central Asian peoples. All topics related to ethnicity should go here.
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=579
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Topic: Help! Tatar versus Tartar
Posted By: Guests
Subject: Help! Tatar versus Tartar
Date Posted: 13-Sep-2004 at 06:09
What IS the difference? I know there is one but I'm hard pressed to sort it out from the numerous pieces of  amazing info I've been reaping on the net.

You all seem the wise and well-read sort who could help me out here...


Thanks for any assistance and enjoy your Sunday.


J



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Replies:
Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 13-Sep-2004 at 16:19
tatar is the name for the tribe that was subdued by Chingis Khan, Tartar is the word used by the European west (especially Russians) for all Mongols.

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Posted By: Imperator Invictus
Date Posted: 13-Sep-2004 at 16:28
Right.

Tatar comes from chinese ta-ta-er, a nomadic tribe conquered by Chingiz
Tartar comes from greek/latin Tartaros, meaning the underworld.

When Chingiz and his successors went west, they called his men Tartars, as people from hell. Coincidentally, this was similar to Tatar, so the two are confused, and became almost interchangible in use. Some modern sholars prefer to use Tatar to describe the "Mongols" who settled west, although in old european documents, the word "Tartar" was used.


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Posted By: Scytho-Sarmatian
Date Posted: 14-Sep-2004 at 02:34

This is what I've read, but I'm not sure how much of it is fiction or truth:

The Tatars were a Turkic (?) tribe on the western border of Mongolia that had been subjugated by the Mongols.  Consequently, they provided a large contigent of forces which the Mongols used primarily in the invasions of Central Asia, Eastern Europe, and West Asia.  In other words, the majority of the troops used by the Mongols in those areas would actually have been Tatars, while a smaller core of "true" Mongols maintained command.  Therefore, the Europeans would probably have known the invaders as "Tatars," which they re-interpreted as "Tartars," or people from Tartarus.

Or something like that.



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 14-Sep-2004 at 06:26

Though I hate smileys, you folks have made my day!

Thank you veeery much. I start teaching English classes to a wide range of students tomorrow and one of them works for the Tatar-Bashkir language service of Radio Free Europe. I didn't want to risk insulting the student on the first day or anything like that.

Found a thesis on Thomas of Spalato (Split) 13the cent. where the author says:
Although Thomas consistently employs the name “Tartar” he knows that hey called themselves Mongols (mangoli).  He also shows an awareness of a distinction between “Tartar” and “Tatar”, but makes no attempt to resolve the question of which name is to be preferred.  The name “Tartar” is derived, he says, either from a “certain stream which flows past their territory,” or “according to some ‘Tatar’ signifies the same as ‘horde’ (multitudo).”

Though this Thomas is convinced they're are hellish people who consort with demons.

Sounds about right, eh?


Thanks again and happy reading!


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Posted By: Snafu
Date Posted: 14-Sep-2004 at 09:41

Both terms, Tatar and Tartar probably originate from the Mongol word "tata" which means "to haul". Evidence shows that this was once a generic term for all steppe nomads, not just the Tatar tribe.

 

 



Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 14-Sep-2004 at 10:00

Originally posted by Imperator Invictus

Tartar comes from greek/latin Tartaros, meaning the underworld.

Just to add a little trivia, Tartaros were the depths of the underworld where Zeus and the other gods on his side have thrown and locked the defeated Titanes after the "Titanomachia" (battle of gods). He has fought the battle along with other Olympian gods against his father Cronus, the Titans, Giants and Python (not Monty).



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The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin


Posted By: Chono
Date Posted: 14-Sep-2004 at 15:36

The first tatars were a mongol tribal confederation which dwelled in today's inner Mongolia. They were bigger and more exposed to other peoples than the original "mongols", so back then tatar was a term describing all mongols. The word itself derives itself from a joujan khaghan named Tatar (means "taker, or hauler" in mongolian), who lived around 550 A.D.

When "mongols" came to power, people were still calling them tatar, but that was a "bad" word, because of some violent history, and was gradually banned and became obscure in the east. In the west, the word stick to the Golden Horde and it's numerous descendant khanates, so we got now very many kinds of tatars living in Siberia to Crimea.



Posted By: Scytho-Sarmatian
Date Posted: 15-Sep-2004 at 01:52

Chono-

That's interesting that you would describe all Tatars as having a Mongolian origin.  I guess some people seem to think they are of Turkic or even Finnic stock.  BTW, did you know there are Tatar villages in Poland?



Posted By: Berosus
Date Posted: 15-Sep-2004 at 05:20
Don't forget that in modern-day Russia there is a tribe that calls itself the Tatars, on the upper Volga River near Ulyanovsk.  They number almost 4 million, are descended from the former inhabitants of the Khanate of Kazan, and maybe also the Volga Bulgars who lived there previously.  The Tatars are Moslem, but unlike Chechnya, the Russian government was able to work out an autonomy deal with Tatarstan to prevent revolts.

Once I read that Lenin's mother may have been from this group.  The Mongolians made a big deal of this in the days of the USSR, giving rise to the saying, "Scratch a Russian and find a Tartar."


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Nothing truly great is achieved through moderation.--Prof. M.A.R. Barker


Posted By: Berosus
Date Posted: 15-Sep-2004 at 05:26
It just occurred to me, we have a similar derivation for the term "Saracen."  The word was originally a Greek name, "Sarakenoi," and was used by the Byzantine Empire to identify an Arab tribe in the Sinai peninsula.  After the Islamic conquests of the seventh century, people began applying it to all Arabs, and by the time of the Crusades, to all Moslems.

Likewise, here we see the name Tatar/Tartar go from being the name of a small Mongolian tribe to the name of all nomads from Asia's interior.


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Nothing truly great is achieved through moderation.--Prof. M.A.R. Barker


Posted By: Scytho-Sarmatian
Date Posted: 15-Sep-2004 at 07:06

Berosus-

I believe the saying goes, "scratch a Russian and you'll wound a Tartar."  The origin of this goes way back before the time of the U.S.S.R. to the time when the Mongols/Tatars ruled Russia, which was roughly the 1200's through the 1400's.

I might also add that there is another Mongolian people in southeastern Russia known as the Kalmyks.  They are traditionally Lamaist Buddhist and they look very East Asian in appearance.  Their arrival in Russia was relatively recent -- 16th to 17th centuries.



Posted By: Imperator Invictus
Date Posted: 15-Sep-2004 at 14:59
Originally posted by Snafu

<>Both terms, Tatar and Tartar probably originate from the Mongol word "tata" which means "to haul". Evidence shows that this was once a generic term for all steppe nomads, not just the Tatar tribe.


Tartar is from Tartaros, which was conveniently confused with "Tatar" the tribe.

John Carpini wrote a famous acount of his visit to the great khan: Historia Mongalorum quos nos Tartaros appellamus (History of the Mongols, whom we called Tartars).

Marco polo remarked that the Mongols did not like being called "Tartars" and doing so was not correct:

"It is not correct, however, to call the people Tartars, which in those days they were not, but of a race named Cumani, with a mixture of other nations."

The Mongols probably misheard Tartar and thought it meant Tatar.
 


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Posted By: Chono
Date Posted: 16-Sep-2004 at 09:42

I said the word stuck to the Golden Horde subjects. Of course, in the GH only a few ruling class people had mongol origin, the vast majority was of turkic, ugrian and slav origin. But they all pretty much molded into one ethnicity, of course with major divisions among themselves, like kazan tatars - mostly ugrs (if you look at them) or nogai tatars - mostly turkic.

Now I believe tatars are the second most numerous ethnicity in Russia, actually they're doing pretty good. Tatarstan is one of the few self-reliant federal republics. Tatars speak a turkic language, practice islam. They have a pretty strong ethnic identity too, they had a quarrel with Moscow about making turkish latin alphabet official in their republic. Russians of course refused it.



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 18-Sep-2004 at 14:58
I should have hooked up with this forum a while ago.  I did a research paper on Genghis Khan last year for Fantasy/Sci-fi class and I couldn't tell the difference.  The teacher was really cool though, so he wouldn't have cared if I mixed up "Tatar" with "Tartar."

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Posted By: Kubrat
Date Posted: 18-Sep-2004 at 16:21
The way I have heard it, Tatar was a term for the peoples the Mongols subjugated and made fight for them.  So it probably started out as one tribe, and then became a general term for all of them.

As for Tatarstan:

http://www.kcn.ru/tat_en/history/h_bulge.html - http://www.kcn.ru/tat_en/history/h_bulge.html

http://kazan.ws/cgi-bin/eng/view.pl?idr=29&mr=11 - http://kazan.ws/cgi-bin/eng/view.pl?idr=29&mr=11

It seems to me like the people of Tatarstan view themselves as descendants of the Volga Bulgars.


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Hell is empty and all the devils are here.
-William Shakespeare


Posted By: ihsan
Date Posted: 20-Sep-2004 at 05:45

The original Tatars of the 6th-12th centuries were a people or several peoples (not tribe) of Mongolic stock, they were related with the Tatabi, Khitans, Shiwei and eventually the Xianbei, their ancestors. These Tatars were also recorded as a subject and foe of the Tujue in the Orkhon Inscriptions of the early 8th century; though according to Tujue-Uyghur sources, there were two types of Tatars: Toquz Tatar (Nine Tatar tribes) and Otuz Tatar (Thirty Tatar tribes).

These Tatars were finally defeated by Temujin Khan (the future's Chinggis Kha'an), their tribal structure was broken and they were both massacred, divivded and merged into other Turko-Mongol peoples living under Mongol rule.

The Russians and Europeans also used the name "Tatar" for the subjects of the Uls of Jochi (aka the 'Golden Horde'). Today there are several types of Tatars, all of them being Turkic, incluiding the Crimean Tatars (descendents of Qypchaq-Cuman Turks) and Tatars of Kazan/Tataristan (mix between Qypchaq refugees and local Volga Bulgars who themselves were and are Turkic).



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Qaghan of the Vast Steppes

http://steppes.proboards23.com - Steppes History Forum


Posted By: Kubrat
Date Posted: 30-Sep-2004 at 21:55
Qypchaq Ihsan?  Remind me who they were?

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Hell is empty and all the devils are here.
-William Shakespeare


Posted By: ihsan
Date Posted: 01-Oct-2004 at 06:58

The Qypchaqs were one of the major Turkic peoples of the Medieval Times, they were knowm in Hungary as Kun and in Europe as Kuman/Cuman. Before the Mongols destroyed their state in the 1220s, they ruled the Pontic-Caspian Steppes, which was named "Desert of the Qypchaqs" by the Muslims. The majority of Egyptian Mamlûks were Qypchaqs.

Today, Northwestern Group of Turkic languages in knows as the Qypchaq grop. This incluedes Crimean Tatar, Tatar, Kazak, Kyrgyz, Nogai, Karachai, Balkar, Kypchak-Uzbek, Karakalpak etc...



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[IMG]http://img50.exs.cx/img50/6148/ger3.jpg">

Qaghan of the Vast Steppes

http://steppes.proboards23.com - Steppes History Forum


Posted By: Kubrat
Date Posted: 01-Oct-2004 at 18:32
Edit:  Post out of order...



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Hell is empty and all the devils are here.
-William Shakespeare


Posted By: Kubrat
Date Posted: 03-Oct-2004 at 10:18
Ohhhh, the Cumans..

You always spell things differently than I'm used to .

As for the Tatar language, that is used in Tatarstan?


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Hell is empty and all the devils are here.
-William Shakespeare


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 05-Oct-2004 at 13:21
The official languages of Tatarstan are the Tatar language and Russian.  I believe that Tatarstan is changing their alphabet from Cyrillic to the Latin alphabet.

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Posted By: ihsan
Date Posted: 05-Oct-2004 at 14:11
Hehe Kubrat, you can write it with many ways but they would still be pronounced in the same way. Examples are Kýpçak, Kypchak, Qypchaq, Qïpchaq, Kipchak, etc...

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Qaghan of the Vast Steppes

http://steppes.proboards23.com - Steppes History Forum


Posted By: Kubrat
Date Posted: 06-Oct-2004 at 18:41

I believe that Tatarstan is changing their alphabet from Cyrillic to the Latin alphabet.

They used the latin characters between 1929 - 1929, when Stalin imposed Cyrillic on them.  In 2001, they switched to a modified version of Latin.

Hehe Kubrat, you can write it with many ways but they would still be pronounced in the same way. Examples are Kýpçak, Kypchak, Qypchaq, Qïpchaq, Kipchak, etc...

Well, it still looks different.  .  It's usually because of trivialities like these, though, that many historical inaccuracies are made.

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Hell is empty and all the devils are here.
-William Shakespeare


Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 06-Oct-2004 at 19:52
oh BTW, I finally found out why Qypchak are said to be blond. obviously Kuman translates as yellow and some historician must have assuemd that actually refers to hair colour...

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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 17-Nov-2004 at 18:04
If this message board is still open, I'd like to post some questions

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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 17-Nov-2004 at 18:06
About Tatarstan and Volga Bulgaria

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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 17-Nov-2004 at 18:18
The connection seems much stronger, than it's officially admitted! It's interesting how Tatarstan is such a stable republic in an unstable region! The same as Danube Bulgaria on the Balkans!
I think that the fact itself is very interesting, if the historical facts are not!

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Posted By: Akskl
Date Posted: 17-Nov-2004 at 23:05
Tatars were always Turkic-speaking tribe (or people) - both before Genghis Khan (see Orkhon inscriptions), and after Genghis Khan times, and they are Turkic speaking peoples now too. As well as Naimans, Kereits, Jalairs,  Qongirrats, Qypchaks/Polovtsy/Cumans, Qangly, etc.  -  parts of the modern Kazaks (or Kazakhs - i.e. in Russian spelling).
Westerners always called all the Steppe Turkic-speaking tribes as "Tartars" - without detailing who is who within them, same as in mediaeval times everybody called all the West Europeans as "Franks".  Even now most of the Western historians do not realize the importance of the tribes/clans (military unions) and tribal origins of the Steppe historical figures (except Rene Grousset, Igor de Rachewiltz, and few other serious historians).   


Posted By: ihsan
Date Posted: 06-Dec-2004 at 13:21

The Tatars before the time of Chinggis Khaan got nothing to do with the Tatars of Eastern Europe (15th-21th c.). The Pre-13th century Tatars of Mongolia were a Mongolic people related with other Mongolic peoples such as the Khitans, Tataby, Shiwei, etc.

The Jalairs and Unggirrats were Mongol clans too.



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[IMG]http://img50.exs.cx/img50/6148/ger3.jpg">

Qaghan of the Vast Steppes

http://steppes.proboards23.com - Steppes History Forum


Posted By: xi_tujue
Date Posted: 27-Aug-2006 at 08:39
Originally posted by Skolotai

Originally posted by Temujin

tatar is the name for the tribe that was subdued by Chingis Khan, Tartar is the word used by the European west (especially Russians) for all Mongols.
Are ye crazy or what? There is no word in russian as tartar or similar,tatar is the right form.Tartar is the invention of europeans,as ye.AngryAngryAngry(Stop tellin' bullsh*t,dude.I don't think ye know russian.)
wow such a bright lad you are 9 post ab allready calling post of teh mods bullClap.
 
btw what do russians call them


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I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage


Posted By: Seko
Date Posted: 27-Aug-2006 at 09:37
Skolotai's post today was offensive and removed. Such language will lead to removal of membership if it continues.

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Posted By: Akskl
Date Posted: 27-Aug-2006 at 15:42
All the above-mentioned so-called "Mongol" tribes of Genghis Khan spoke TURKIC language. Please read beginning of the book below (click on the right edge of the page):

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0631189491/ref=sib_dp_pt/102-8945389-6424103#reader-link




Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 28-Aug-2006 at 12:16

Turkic inscriptions classified Tatars as a Turkic group which had a good relationshp with Oghuzes. In fact, they, many times, united to defend each other.



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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.


Posted By: Seko
Date Posted: 28-Aug-2006 at 12:27
gok toruk, do you have any info or links on the pre-Cengiz Tatars? Thats a part of their history I'm deficient in.

The Tatars of Cengiz's time was a confederation that included his tribe of the Borchigin. But that means that tribe was part of what is later called Mongol.
After leaving the forest areas they, Borchigin, teamed up with pastoral nomad Tatars, who were most likely Dadan/Shao'to.

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Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 28-Aug-2006 at 12:35
See, though they were part of Mongol horde, the name (with this spelling and using two tough 't's) is somehow not valid in a Mongol's tongue. Ask Mongols (as I've asked my Mongol friends online) and they will say it's kind of an accent.
 
I mostly buy books, rather than searching for stuff online. At least, they would be part of my archives. So, for the time being, I really can't help sorry. But, I'm about to finish my research I've been recently working on. I'll be able provide you a few links, I suppose, in 2 or 3 days.


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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.


Posted By: Seko
Date Posted: 28-Aug-2006 at 12:38
Thanks for the quick response. I'll wait for the links when your done with your research.

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Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 03-Sep-2006 at 03:46
1- History of Mongols (3 Vol.) ___ Sir H. Haworth

2- Social Organization of Mongol - Turkic Pastoral Nomads - L. Krader

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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.


Posted By: Seko
Date Posted: 03-Sep-2006 at 10:58
Thanks for the resources, gt. I don't think I'll but the last book. It costs too much. I'll check the library instead.

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Posted By: barbar
Date Posted: 03-Sep-2006 at 12:24
Originally posted by gok_toruk

Turkic inscriptions classified Tatars as a Turkic group which had a good relationshp with Oghuzes. In fact, they, many times, united to defend each other.

 
Can you provide us the exact quote from the inscription that classified them as Turkic people except the designation of Turkic number? 
 
I'd agree with Seko that they had mixed nature.  It seems, according to another mongol forumers explanation of the word, they were a confederacy of nomadic Mongol and Turkic tribes.  If they self designated themselves with a Mongolic word, then there is no reason to say they were exclusively or mainly Turkic tribes.
 
 


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Either make a history or become a history.


Posted By: Tangriberdi
Date Posted: 03-Sep-2006 at 15:48
Originally posted by barbar

 
 If they self designated themselves with a Mongolic word, then there is no reason to say they were exclusively or mainly Turkic tribes.
 
There are some linguistic assumptions regarding the proper name Tatar.
Some Anatolian Turkish academician and linguistis claim that the self designation name Tatar can not be necessarily of Monolian origin., although the name showing Mongolic characteristics.
I think I am fish minded. I always forget the names of books or articles that I can provide.  So I do not remember again in where I read it. But Some Turkish scientists and experts on the topic says that the Tatar name was consisted of two parts which later amagamated and formed a name.  Acording to this , Tatar is a combination of Tat and Er. The first one meant Foreign , Stranger, Non-native . This tat was used to other peoples that are not of Turkic stock , later it was used to specifically for Iranian peoples.
Er meant man, human
So Tat er meant Foreign man, Foreigner.
Tat+er later turned into Tatar.
If this assumption is true, it also confirms that Turkic speaking Tatars also included some non-Turkic elements and that is why they were called foreigners.
I do not know if this is true. You know some Turkish scientists are really in love with pseudo science. Tongue


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Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 04-Sep-2006 at 01:53
Well, we've got the word and its derivations in Turkmen. The most famous one, is: 'woshy tataq' = somebody who has lived in deserts. Totally, 'tatar' means 'man who lives in the desert'. It's almost equal to 'qyrqiz'.

And I don't know which line it is, but I'll quote from the book:

'Otuz tatar 9 Oghuz beklery; budunuM; bu sabymyn ügüty eshyt qatyghty tyngla (Orkhon Inscriptions - p22
Ergin - p49)

I'll look for other lines, since it's very frequent in Turkic inscriptions.


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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.


Posted By: Tangriberdi
Date Posted: 04-Sep-2006 at 13:01
Originally posted by gok_toruk

Well, we've got the word and its derivations in Turkmen. The most famous one, is: 'woshy tataq' = somebody who has lived in deserts. Totally, 'tatar' means 'man who lives in the desert'. It's almost equal to 'qyrqiz'.

And I don't know which line it is, but I'll quote from the book:

'Otuz tatar 9 Oghuz beklery; budunuM; bu sabymyn ügüty eshyt qatyghty tyngla (Orkhon Inscriptions - p22
Ergin - p49)

I'll look for other lines, since it's very frequent in Turkic inscriptions.
I heard that some people here in Turkey especially in Aegean region   use the word Tat(adj.) to refer to incovenient soil, improper land, uninhabited area. But the sources I have do not contain information regarding this meaning .
Uninhabited area may be a dessert?
 


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Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 04-Sep-2006 at 15:31
By desert, I mean a totally isolated place. It doesn't necessarily mean 'no water; no jungle'. It's exactly as you explained.

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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.



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