Author |
Share Topic Topic Search Topic Options
|
gok_toruk
Arch Duke
9 Oghuz
Joined: 28-Apr-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1831
|
Quote Reply
Topic: Help! Tatar versus Tartar Posted: 04-Sep-2006 at 15:31 |
By desert, I mean a totally isolated place. It doesn't necessarily mean 'no water; no jungle'. It's exactly as you explained.
|
Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.
|
|
Tangriberdi
Earl
Joined: 03-Aug-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 267
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 04-Sep-2006 at 13:01 |
Originally posted by gok_toruk
Well, we've got the word and its derivations in Turkmen. The most famous one, is: 'woshy tataq' = somebody who has lived in deserts. Totally, 'tatar' means 'man who lives in the desert'. It's almost equal to 'qyrqiz'.
And I don't know which line it is, but I'll quote from the book:
'Otuz tatar 9 Oghuz beklery; budunuM; bu sabymyn gty eshyt qatyghty tyngla (Orkhon Inscriptions - p22 Ergin - p49)
I'll look for other lines, since it's very frequent in Turkic inscriptions.
|
I heard that some people here in Turkey especially in Aegean region use the word Tat(adj.) to refer to incovenient soil, improper land, uninhabited area. But the sources I have do not contain information regarding this meaning .
Uninhabited area may be a dessert?
Edited by Tangriberdi - 04-Sep-2006 at 13:02
|
|
gok_toruk
Arch Duke
9 Oghuz
Joined: 28-Apr-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1831
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 04-Sep-2006 at 01:53 |
Well, we've got the word and its derivations in Turkmen. The most famous one, is: 'woshy tataq' = somebody who has lived in deserts. Totally, 'tatar' means 'man who lives in the desert'. It's almost equal to 'qyrqiz'.
And I don't know which line it is, but I'll quote from the book:
'Otuz tatar 9 Oghuz beklery; budunuM; bu sabymyn gty eshyt qatyghty tyngla (Orkhon Inscriptions - p22
Ergin - p49)
I'll look for other lines, since it's very frequent in Turkic inscriptions.
|
Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.
|
|
Tangriberdi
Earl
Joined: 03-Aug-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 267
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 03-Sep-2006 at 15:48 |
Originally posted by barbar
If they self designated themselves with a Mongolic word, then there is no reason to say they were exclusively or mainly Turkic tribes.
|
There are some linguistic assumptions regarding the proper name Tatar.
Some Anatolian Turkish academician and linguistis claim that the self designation name Tatar can not be necessarily of Monolian origin., although the name showing Mongolic characteristics.
I think I am fish minded. I always forget the names of books or articles that I can provide. So I do not remember again in where I read it. But Some Turkish scientists and experts on the topic says that the Tatar name was consisted of two parts which later amagamated and formed a name. Acording to this , Tatar is a combination of Tat and Er. The first one meant Foreign , Stranger, Non-native . This tat was used to other peoples that are not of Turkic stock , later it was used to specifically for Iranian peoples.
Er meant man, human
So Tat er meant Foreign man, Foreigner.
Tat+er later turned into Tatar.
If this assumption is true, it also confirms that Turkic speaking Tatars also included some non-Turkic elements and that is why they were called foreigners.
I do not know if this is true. You know some Turkish scientists are really in love with pseudo science.
Edited by Tangriberdi - 03-Sep-2006 at 15:50
|
|
barbar
General
retired AE Moderator
Joined: 10-Aug-2005
Location: Italy
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 781
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 03-Sep-2006 at 12:24 |
Originally posted by gok_toruk
Turkic inscriptions classified Tatars as a Turkic group which had a good relationshp with Oghuzes. In fact, they, many times, united to defend each other. |
Can you provide us the exact quote from the inscription that classified them as Turkic people except the designation of Turkic number?
I'd agree with Seko that they had mixed nature. It seems, according to another mongol forumers explanation of the word, they were a confederacy of nomadic Mongol and Turkic tribes. If they self designated themselves with a Mongolic word, then there is no reason to say they were exclusively or mainly Turkic tribes.
|
Either make a history or become a history.
|
|
Seko
Emperor
Spammer
Joined: 01-Sep-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8595
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 03-Sep-2006 at 10:58 |
Thanks for the resources, gt. I don't think I'll but the last book. It costs too much. I'll check the library instead.
Edited by Seko - 03-Sep-2006 at 10:58
|
|
gok_toruk
Arch Duke
9 Oghuz
Joined: 28-Apr-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1831
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 03-Sep-2006 at 03:46 |
1- History of Mongols (3 Vol.) ___ Sir H. Haworth
2- Social Organization of Mongol - Turkic Pastoral Nomads - L. Krader
|
Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.
|
|
Seko
Emperor
Spammer
Joined: 01-Sep-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8595
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 28-Aug-2006 at 12:38 |
Thanks for the quick response. I'll wait for the links when your done with your research.
|
|
gok_toruk
Arch Duke
9 Oghuz
Joined: 28-Apr-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1831
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 28-Aug-2006 at 12:35 |
See, though they were part of Mongol horde, the name (with this spelling and using two tough 't's) is somehow not valid in a Mongol's tongue. Ask Mongols (as I've asked my Mongol friends online) and they will say it's kind of an accent.
I mostly buy books, rather than searching for stuff online. At least, they would be part of my archives. So, for the time being, I really can't help sorry. But, I'm about to finish my research I've been recently working on. I'll be able provide you a few links, I suppose, in 2 or 3 days.
Edited by gok_toruk - 28-Aug-2006 at 12:37
|
Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.
|
|
Seko
Emperor
Spammer
Joined: 01-Sep-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8595
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 28-Aug-2006 at 12:27 |
gok toruk, do you have any info or links on the pre-Cengiz Tatars? Thats a part of their history I'm deficient in.
The Tatars of Cengiz's time was a confederation that included his tribe of the Borchigin. But that means that tribe was part of what is later called Mongol.
After leaving the forest areas they, Borchigin, teamed up with pastoral nomad Tatars, who were most likely Dadan/Shao'to.
|
|
gok_toruk
Arch Duke
9 Oghuz
Joined: 28-Apr-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1831
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 28-Aug-2006 at 12:16 |
Turkic inscriptions classified Tatars as a Turkic group which had a good relationshp with Oghuzes. In fact, they, many times, united to defend each other.
|
Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.
|
|
Akskl
Samurai
Joined: 31-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 132
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 27-Aug-2006 at 15:42 |
All the above-mentioned so-called "Mongol" tribes of Genghis Khan spoke
TURKIC language. Please read beginning of the book below (click on the
right edge of the page):
http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0631189491/ref=sib_dp_pt/102-8945389-6424103#reader-link
|
|
Seko
Emperor
Spammer
Joined: 01-Sep-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8595
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 27-Aug-2006 at 09:37 |
Skolotai's post today was offensive and removed. Such language will lead to removal of membership if it continues.
|
|
xi_tujue
Arch Duke
Atabeg
Joined: 19-May-2006
Location: Belgium
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1919
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 27-Aug-2006 at 08:39 |
Originally posted by Skolotai
Originally posted by Temujin
tatar is the name for the tribe that was subdued by Chingis Khan, Tartar is the word used by the European west (especially Russians) for all Mongols. | Are ye crazy or what? There is no word in russian as tartar or similar,tatar is the right form.Tartar is the invention of europeans,as ye.(Stop tellin' bullsh*t,dude.I don't think ye know russian.) |
wow such a bright lad you are 9 post ab allready calling post of teh mods bull .
btw what do russians call them
|
I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage
|
|
ihsan
General
Retired AE Moderator
Joined: 06-Aug-2004
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 831
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 06-Dec-2004 at 13:21 |
The Tatars before the time of Chinggis Khaan got nothing to do with the Tatars of Eastern Europe (15th-21th c.). The Pre-13th century Tatars of Mongolia were a Mongolic people related with other Mongolic peoples such as the Khitans, Tataby, Shiwei, etc.
The Jalairs and Unggirrats were Mongol clans too.
|
|
|
Akskl
Samurai
Joined: 31-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 132
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 17-Nov-2004 at 23:05 |
Tatars were always Turkic-speaking tribe (or people) - both before
Genghis Khan (see Orkhon inscriptions), and after Genghis Khan times,
and they are Turkic speaking peoples now too. As well as Naimans,
Kereits, Jalairs, Qongirrats, Qypchaks/Polovtsy/Cumans, Qangly,
etc. - parts of the modern Kazaks (or Kazakhs - i.e. in
Russian spelling).
Westerners always called all the Steppe Turkic-speaking tribes as
"Tartars" - without detailing who is who within them, same as in
mediaeval times everybody called all the West Europeans as
"Franks". Even now most of the Western historians do not realize
the importance of the tribes/clans (military unions) and tribal origins
of the Steppe historical figures (except Rene Grousset, Igor de
Rachewiltz, and few other serious historians).
|
|
Guests
Guest
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 17-Nov-2004 at 18:18 |
The connection seems much stronger, than it's officially admitted! It's interesting how Tatarstan is such a stable republic in an unstable region! The same as Danube Bulgaria on the Balkans!
I think that the fact itself is very interesting, if the historical facts are not!
|
|
Guests
Guest
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 17-Nov-2004 at 18:06 |
About Tatarstan and Volga Bulgaria
|
|
Guests
Guest
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 17-Nov-2004 at 18:04 |
If this message board is still open, I'd like to post some questions
|
|
Temujin
King
Sirdar Bahadur
Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Eurasia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5221
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 06-Oct-2004 at 19:52 |
oh BTW, I finally found out why Qypchak are said to be blond. obviously Kuman translates as yellow and some historician must have assuemd that actually refers to hair colour...
|
|