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Help! Tatar versus Tartar

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Help! Tatar versus Tartar
    Posted: 13-Sep-2004 at 06:09
What IS the difference? I know there is one but I'm hard pressed to sort it out from the numerous pieces of  amazing info I've been reaping on the net.

You all seem the wise and well-read sort who could help me out here...


Thanks for any assistance and enjoy your Sunday.


J



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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Sep-2004 at 16:19
tatar is the name for the tribe that was subdued by Chingis Khan, Tartar is the word used by the European west (especially Russians) for all Mongols.
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  Quote Imperator Invictus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Sep-2004 at 16:28
Right.

Tatar comes from chinese ta-ta-er, a nomadic tribe conquered by Chingiz
Tartar comes from greek/latin Tartaros, meaning the underworld.

When Chingiz and his successors went west, they called his men Tartars, as people from hell. Coincidentally, this was similar to Tatar, so the two are confused, and became almost interchangible in use. Some modern sholars prefer to use Tatar to describe the "Mongols" who settled west, although in old european documents, the word "Tartar" was used.


Edited by Imperator Invictus
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  Quote Scytho-Sarmatian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Sep-2004 at 02:34

This is what I've read, but I'm not sure how much of it is fiction or truth:

The Tatars were a Turkic (?) tribe on the western border of Mongolia that had been subjugated by the Mongols.  Consequently, they provided a large contigent of forces which the Mongols used primarily in the invasions of Central Asia, Eastern Europe, and West Asia.  In other words, the majority of the troops used by the Mongols in those areas would actually have been Tatars, while a smaller core of "true" Mongols maintained command.  Therefore, the Europeans would probably have known the invaders as "Tatars," which they re-interpreted as "Tartars," or people from Tartarus.

Or something like that.

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Sep-2004 at 06:26

Though I hate smileys, you folks have made my day!

Thank you veeery much. I start teaching English classes to a wide range of students tomorrow and one of them works for the Tatar-Bashkir language service of Radio Free Europe. I didn't want to risk insulting the student on the first day or anything like that.

Found a thesis on Thomas of Spalato (Split) 13the cent. where the author says:
Although Thomas consistently employs the name Tartar he knows that hey called themselves Mongols (mangoli).  He also shows an awareness of a distinction between Tartar and Tatar, but makes no attempt to resolve the question of which name is to be preferred.  The name Tartar is derived, he says, either from a certain stream which flows past their territory, or according to some Tatar signifies the same as horde (multitudo).

Though this Thomas is convinced they're are hellish people who consort with demons.

Sounds about right, eh?


Thanks again and happy reading!


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  Quote Snafu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Sep-2004 at 09:41

Both terms, Tatar and Tartar probably originate from the Mongol word "tata" which means "to haul". Evidence shows that this was once a generic term for all steppe nomads, not just the Tatar tribe.

 

 

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  Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Sep-2004 at 10:00

Originally posted by Imperator Invictus

Tartar comes from greek/latin Tartaros, meaning the underworld.

Just to add a little trivia, Tartaros were the depths of the underworld where Zeus and the other gods on his side have thrown and locked the defeated Titanes after the "Titanomachia" (battle of gods). He has fought the battle along with other Olympian gods against his father Cronus, the Titans, Giants and Python (not Monty).

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  Quote Chono Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Sep-2004 at 15:36

The first tatars were a mongol tribal confederation which dwelled in today's inner Mongolia. They were bigger and more exposed to other peoples than the original "mongols", so back then tatar was a term describing all mongols. The word itself derives itself from a joujan khaghan named Tatar (means "taker, or hauler" in mongolian), who lived around 550 A.D.

When "mongols" came to power, people were still calling them tatar, but that was a "bad" word, because of some violent history, and was gradually banned and became obscure in the east. In the west, the word stick to the Golden Horde and it's numerous descendant khanates, so we got now very many kinds of tatars living in Siberia to Crimea.

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  Quote Scytho-Sarmatian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Sep-2004 at 01:52

Chono-

That's interesting that you would describe all Tatars as having a Mongolian origin.  I guess some people seem to think they are of Turkic or even Finnic stock.  BTW, did you know there are Tatar villages in Poland?

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  Quote Berosus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Sep-2004 at 05:20
Don't forget that in modern-day Russia there is a tribe that calls itself the Tatars, on the upper Volga River near Ulyanovsk.  They number almost 4 million, are descended from the former inhabitants of the Khanate of Kazan, and maybe also the Volga Bulgars who lived there previously.  The Tatars are Moslem, but unlike Chechnya, the Russian government was able to work out an autonomy deal with Tatarstan to prevent revolts.

Once I read that Lenin's mother may have been from this group.  The Mongolians made a big deal of this in the days of the USSR, giving rise to the saying, "Scratch a Russian and find a Tartar."
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  Quote Berosus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Sep-2004 at 05:26
It just occurred to me, we have a similar derivation for the term "Saracen."  The word was originally a Greek name, "Sarakenoi," and was used by the Byzantine Empire to identify an Arab tribe in the Sinai peninsula.  After the Islamic conquests of the seventh century, people began applying it to all Arabs, and by the time of the Crusades, to all Moslems.

Likewise, here we see the name Tatar/Tartar go from being the name of a small Mongolian tribe to the name of all nomads from Asia's interior.
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  Quote Scytho-Sarmatian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Sep-2004 at 07:06

Berosus-

I believe the saying goes, "scratch a Russian and you'll wound a Tartar."  The origin of this goes way back before the time of the U.S.S.R. to the time when the Mongols/Tatars ruled Russia, which was roughly the 1200's through the 1400's.

I might also add that there is another Mongolian people in southeastern Russia known as the Kalmyks.  They are traditionally Lamaist Buddhist and they look very East Asian in appearance.  Their arrival in Russia was relatively recent -- 16th to 17th centuries.

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  Quote Imperator Invictus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Sep-2004 at 14:59
Originally posted by Snafu

<>Both terms, Tatar and Tartar probably originate from the Mongol word "tata" which means "to haul". Evidence shows that this was once a generic term for all steppe nomads, not just the Tatar tribe.


Tartar is from Tartaros, which was conveniently confused with "Tatar" the tribe.

John Carpini wrote a famous acount of his visit to the great khan: Historia Mongalorum quos nos Tartaros appellamus (History of the Mongols, whom we called Tartars).

Marco polo remarked that the Mongols did not like being called "Tartars" and doing so was not correct:

"It is not correct, however, to call the people Tartars, which in those days they were not, but of a race named Cumani, with a mixture of other nations."

The Mongols probably misheard Tartar and thought it meant Tatar.
 


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  Quote Chono Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2004 at 09:42

I said the word stuck to the Golden Horde subjects. Of course, in the GH only a few ruling class people had mongol origin, the vast majority was of turkic, ugrian and slav origin. But they all pretty much molded into one ethnicity, of course with major divisions among themselves, like kazan tatars - mostly ugrs (if you look at them) or nogai tatars - mostly turkic.

Now I believe tatars are the second most numerous ethnicity in Russia, actually they're doing pretty good. Tatarstan is one of the few self-reliant federal republics. Tatars speak a turkic language, practice islam. They have a pretty strong ethnic identity too, they had a quarrel with Moscow about making turkish latin alphabet official in their republic. Russians of course refused it.

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Sep-2004 at 14:58
I should have hooked up with this forum a while ago.  I did a research paper on Genghis Khan last year for Fantasy/Sci-fi class and I couldn't tell the difference.  The teacher was really cool though, so he wouldn't have cared if I mixed up "Tatar" with "Tartar."
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  Quote Kubrat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Sep-2004 at 16:21
The way I have heard it, Tatar was a term for the peoples the Mongols subjugated and made fight for them.  So it probably started out as one tribe, and then became a general term for all of them.

As for Tatarstan:

http://www.kcn.ru/tat_en/history/h_bulge.html

http://kazan.ws/cgi-bin/eng/view.pl?idr=29&mr=11

It seems to me like the people of Tatarstan view themselves as descendants of the Volga Bulgars.
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  Quote ihsan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Sep-2004 at 05:45

The original Tatars of the 6th-12th centuries were a people or several peoples (not tribe) of Mongolic stock, they were related with the Tatabi, Khitans, Shiwei and eventually the Xianbei, their ancestors. These Tatars were also recorded as a subject and foe of the Tujue in the Orkhon Inscriptions of the early 8th century; though according to Tujue-Uyghur sources, there were two types of Tatars: Toquz Tatar (Nine Tatar tribes) and Otuz Tatar (Thirty Tatar tribes).

These Tatars were finally defeated by Temujin Khan (the future's Chinggis Kha'an), their tribal structure was broken and they were both massacred, divivded and merged into other Turko-Mongol peoples living under Mongol rule.

The Russians and Europeans also used the name "Tatar" for the subjects of the Uls of Jochi (aka the 'Golden Horde'). Today there are several types of Tatars, all of them being Turkic, incluiding the Crimean Tatars (descendents of Qypchaq-Cuman Turks) and Tatars of Kazan/Tataristan (mix between Qypchaq refugees and local Volga Bulgars who themselves were and are Turkic).

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  Quote Kubrat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Sep-2004 at 21:55
Qypchaq Ihsan?  Remind me who they were?
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  Quote ihsan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Oct-2004 at 06:58

The Qypchaqs were one of the major Turkic peoples of the Medieval Times, they were knowm in Hungary as Kun and in Europe as Kuman/Cuman. Before the Mongols destroyed their state in the 1220s, they ruled the Pontic-Caspian Steppes, which was named "Desert of the Qypchaqs" by the Muslims. The majority of Egyptian Mamlks were Qypchaqs.

Today, Northwestern Group of Turkic languages in knows as the Qypchaq grop. This incluedes Crimean Tatar, Tatar, Kazak, Kyrgyz, Nogai, Karachai, Balkar, Kypchak-Uzbek, Karakalpak etc...

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  Quote Kubrat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Oct-2004 at 18:32
Edit:  Post out of order...



Edited by Kubrat
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