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Discrepancies between the Bible and Quran

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  Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Discrepancies between the Bible and Quran
    Posted: 13-Aug-2005 at 13:28

 

lol that the Hadeth not the Quran is what you are talking about Tobodai

the Quran was written in his lifetime

 

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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Aug-2005 at 13:28
They can never get along because they are so simialr.  its like marrying two obnoxious people for life.  They are both obnoxious and the same in every way so they cant get along.
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  Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Aug-2005 at 13:30

lol these two posts were posted at the same time

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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Aug-2005 at 13:34
yes but how can we prove the Qu'ran was written in his lifetime? Christians say the Bible was written right after Jesus death but theres no proof.  Hearsay is not proof.
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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Aug-2005 at 13:34

For starters, the Kid seems to be on a kick with such postings.

Next, both texts have numerous passages that reflect and represent the 'One God' belief.

Names have significance due to historical time and place and language.

Abraham was willing to sacrifice his eldest son-which was Ismail.

And so on and so on.....

Another point, you may have found some differences among texts. Good for you. Now find out if they really are different, and if so, why! You might learn more than you already know.

Lastly, the Koran was wriiten in Muhammad's time. A formal compilation from his direction was eventually used at a later date too. References for making the written Koran were Muhammad, the immediate believers, and ayats written on parchments etc. Since Muhammad's first recitation of the Koran from God and the angel Gabriel, the Koran has been preached and practiced everyday by the believers. It did not just spurt into fruition after a long lag of time. On the other hand dubious sayings that, unfortunately have prominance in the moslem societies, are regarded as the hadiths. They are not part of the Koran though.

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  Quote Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Aug-2005 at 13:37
What is the big deal? It is the same God. You guys are all my brothers, as far as I am concerned.

However, since we are just goofing around, it is the Jewish God that had the genocidal tendencies.
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  Quote Komnenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Aug-2005 at 16:13
Originally posted by pikeshot1600

With what is being thrown around here, it is no wonder Moslems and Christians will never understandeach other. It seems hopeless.



Be it more precise, please. It is no wonder that a minority of fanatics of both Muslims and Christians will never understand each other, and don't want to either.
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  Quote Komnenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Aug-2005 at 16:20
Inaccuracies of the Bible:

Where shall we start:

1.) There is no god.
2.) Therefore he didn't create the universe in seven days.
3.) He therefore couldn't have created Adam and Eve who therefore couln't have existed.
4.).........and so on, ad infinitum.



And you have the nerve to criticise the Quran for mispelling and confusing a few names?

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  Quote strategos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Aug-2005 at 16:38
Thanks for respecting everyones beliefs Komnenos...
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  Quote Miller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Aug-2005 at 17:00

Even most Muslims dont claim that Quran was compiled during Mohammeds life. The claim I have heard most often is that earliest compilation of Quran was done at the time of Uthman and at that time there were many version of Quran that he tried to unify. Here is what Wikipedia has to say about this

 

According to secular scholars

There is no one theory of Quranic origins that is accepted by all Western-style or secular scholars.

Many scholars have accepted something like the traditional Muslim version. They believe that Muhammad put forth verses and laws that he claimed to be of divine origin; that his followers memorized or wrote down his revelations; that numerous versions of these revelations circulated after his death in 632 CE, and that Uthman ordered the collection and ordering of this mass of material in the time period (650-656) described by the Islamic scholars. These Western scholars point to many characteristics of the Qur'an -- the repetitions, the arbitrary ordering, the mixture of styles and genres -- as indicative of a human collection process that was extremely respectful of the original sources. There has been no evident organizing and harmonizing of the text.

These scholars account for the many similarities between the Qur'an and the Jewish and Hebrew scriptures by saying that Muhammad was teaching what he believed a universal history, as he had heard it from the Jews and Christians he had encountered in Arabia and on his travels. Differences between the Qur'an and the Judeo-Christian scriptures can usually be explained by Muhammad's reliance on folk traditions rather than the actual text of the scriptures. There have been many studies of Muhammad's sources in the Jewish Mishnah, Gemara, and Midrash, and the Christian Apocrypha. This, of course, directly contradicts the Islamic teaching that it is the Judeo-Christian texts that are corrupt.

Western scholars also dispute the Islamic belief that the whole of the Qur'an is addressed by God to humankind. They note that there are numerous passages where God is directly addressed, or mentioned in the third person, or where the narrator swears by various entities, including God.

"Some asked what need there was for God to take oaths like any mortal being, as when he swears by the fig and olive, and by Mount Sinai (95:1); by the declining day (103:1); and by the stars, the night and the dawn (81:15-18). Above all, they asked why the Almighty had to swear on himself ..." (Walker, cited in Foundations of Islam, Peter Owen, 1998 p. 156)

Western scholars have also been bold enough to point out obscurities in the text, claiming that Muslim commentators have invented explanations rather than admit that they don't know what a word means. Some Western scholars have been actively trying to interpret these obscure words by reference to languages that Muhammad might have encountered, such as Aramaic and Syriac, and from which he might have adopted words not then found in Arabic. Some scholars have tried to resolve obscurities by positing textual corruption, and advancing plausible replacements -- which is, of course, anathema in Muslim eyes. Muslims believe that the Qur'an is complete, perfect, and uncorrupted.

Some Western scholars are less willing to attribute the entire Qur'an to Muhammad. They argue that there is no real proof that the text of the Qur'an was collected under Uthman, since the earliest surviving copies of the complete Qur'an are centuries later than Uthman. (The oldest existing copy of the full text is from the ninth century [2].) They see Islam as being formed slowly, over the centuries after the Muslim conquests, as the Islamic conquerors elaborated their beliefs in response to Jewish and Christian challenges.

One influential proponent of this point of view was Dr. John Wansbrough, an English academic. Wansbrough wrote in a dense, complex, almost hermetic style, and he has had much more influence on Islamic studies through his students, Michael Cook and Patricia Crone than he has through his own writings. In 1977 Crone and Cook published a book called Hagarism, which argued that,

The Qur'an is strikingly lacking in overall structure, frequently obscure and inconsequential in both language and content, perfunctory in its linking of disparate materials, and given to the repetition of whole passages in variant versions. On this basis it can plausibly be argued that the book is the product of belated and imperfect editing of materials from a plurality of traditions. (Patricia Crone and Michael Cook, Hagarism: The Making of the Islamic World, Cambridge, 1977, p. 18.)

Hagarism was extremely controversial at the time, as it challenged not only Muslim orthodoxy, but the prevailing attitudes among secular Islamicists. Crone and Cook have since retreated from their extreme claims that the Qur'an evolved over several centuries, but they still believe that the Sunni scholarly tradition is extremely unreliable, as it projects current Sunni orthodoxy onto the past -- much as if New Testament scholars were dedicated to proving that Jesus was a Presbyterian or a Methodist.

Fred Donner has argued against Crone and Cook, and for an early date for the collection of the Qur'an, based on his reading of the text itself. He points out that if the Qur'an had been collected over the tumultuous early centuries of Islam, with their vast conquests and bloody squabbles between rivals for the caliphate, there would have been some evidence of this history in the text. However, there is nothing in the Qur'an that does not reflect what is known of the earliest Muslim community. (Narratives of Islamic Origins: The Beginnings of Islamic Historical Writing, Donner, Darwin Press, 1998, p. 60.)

Recent archaeological finds have also shed some light on the origins of the Qur'an. In 1972, during the restoration of the Great Mosque of San'a, in Yemen, laborers stumbled upon a "paper grave" containing tens of thousands of fragments of parchment on which verses of the Qur'an were written. (Qur'ans were and still are disposed thus, so as to avoid the impiety of treating the sacred text like ordinary garbage.) Some of these fragments were the oldest Quranic texts yet found [3]. The European scholar Gerd-R. Puin has studied these fragments and published not only a corpus of texts, but some preliminary findings. Interestingly enough, the variations from the received text that he did find seemed to match variations reported by Islamic scholars, in their descriptions of the variant Qur'ans once held by Abdallah Ibn Masud, Ubay Ibn Ka'b, and Ali, and suppressed by Uthman's order. ("Observations on Early Qur'an Manuscripts in San'a", Puin, in The Qur'an as Text, ed. Wild, Brill, 1996)

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Aug-2005 at 17:26

However, since we are just goofing around, it is the Jewish God that had the genocidal tendencies.

Important point.

Jehovah reffers to all of us as "cows providing milk". Anyway, I'll be a good cow and wont discuss Jewish religion.

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Aug-2005 at 18:11
Originally posted by Komnenos

Inaccuracies of the Bible:

Where shall we start:

1.) There is no god.
2.) Therefore he didn't create the universe in seven days.
3.) He therefore couldn't have created Adam and Eve who therefore couln't have existed.
4.).........and so on, ad infinitum.

And you have the nerve to criticise the Quran for mispelling and confusing a few names?


No, no.

We should start like Spinoza (Ethics, First Part: on God, Definition VI): For God I understand an absolutely infinite being, that is a substance that has infinite attributes, each one of them express an absolute and infinite essence.

Long life to Pantheism, the only possible explanation to All!

While the Pan-Theos is not included in the Bible or the Quran... they are perfectly included in the Pan-Theos, as anything else.



Edited by Maju

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  Quote Komnenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Aug-2005 at 19:05
Originally posted by strategos

Thanks for respecting everyones beliefs Komnenos...


As this is probably a criticism of my statement. Refuting somebody's belief does not necessarily mean not respecting it. On the contrary, respect it shown when one takes somebody else's belief that serious that one debates over it.
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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Aug-2005 at 19:33

Originally posted by Belisarius

What is the big deal? It is the same God. You guys are all my brothers, as far as I am concerned.

However, since we are just goofing around, it is the Jewish God that had the genocidal tendencies.

 

True, but overall Abrahamic religions as a whole are exclusionary, intolerant, and opressive.  They are all effectively the same relgions and they are all very harmful for the earth, thankfully their absolutism prevents them from ever getting along.  Not even amosgnst Muslims and Christians is there one unified doctrine, and I am very thankful for that.

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  Quote ill_teknique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Aug-2005 at 02:55
Originally posted by Maju

Originally posted by Paul

Have you considered that Muhammad may have discovered a superior source of information on these subjects and was in fact simply correcting mistakes in the Bible.


According to Quran, Christians and Jews are guilty of modifying the text of the book, specially to hide the announcement of Muhammed. Jesus wasn't crucified and died but it was another man or an illusion or something...

But according to the Bible, the earth is flat and pigs fly, a it's usually said.

As someone said above, it's all just but science-fiction, like that Arkansan Jurassic Park of Eden that someone posted about in another thread.



qu'ran mentions the earth is round

qu'ran says that the eartth was created in six and on the seventh god took his throne - not rested - as that would say that god is limited if god needs rest

and i read the yussuf ali translation i did not catch a lot of these what site did you get them from?
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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Aug-2005 at 07:44
Originally posted by ill_teknique

Originally posted by Maju

Originally posted by Paul

Have you considered that Muhammad may have discovered a superior source of information on these subjects and was in fact simply correcting mistakes in the Bible.


According to Quran, Christians and Jews are guilty of modifying the text of the book, specially to hide the announcement of Muhammed. Jesus wasn't crucified and died but it was another man or an illusion or something...

But according to the Bible, the earth is flat and pigs fly, a it's usually said.

As someone said above, it's all just but science-fiction, like that Arkansan Jurassic Park of Eden that someone posted about in another thread.



qu'ran mentions the earth is round

qu'ran says that the eartth was created in six and on the seventh god took his throne - not rested - as that would say that god is limited if god needs rest

and i read the yussuf ali translation i did not catch a lot of these what site did you get them from?




I was talking about the Bible (read before you post, damnit!). Also, the sentence Earth is flat and pigs fly is a topic saying to mean that they say nonsense... I don't think the Bible says that but says so many other inaccuracies, specially if you follow literalist fanatics, that it's the same.

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  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Aug-2005 at 07:51
IIRC, the bible doesn't clearly say much on whether or not the Earth is flat, with people who wish to believe either interpreting whichever passages whichever way to suit their fancy. The church however, contrary to the modern fairy tale, as for most of it existence accepted that the Earth is in fact round (albeit at the centre of the universe, which it is not).


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  Quote Kenaney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Aug-2005 at 07:58
also ive heard of people claiming that the bible says the earth is 5000 years old... is this nonsens true? If this is true, bible needs to get updated man btw a new expansion pack or something
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  Quote cattus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Aug-2005 at 12:52
I know some Southern Baptist churches preach that.
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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Aug-2005 at 13:34
Abraham was willing to sacrifice his eldest son-which was Ismail.

In Jewish and Christian beliefs it was Issac and not Ishmail. Their tradition is much older but of course those terrible Christians and Jews some how corrupted the original text.

In Sunday school, as a kid, I was taught the Christian view of this story.
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