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Phallanx
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Topic: The Romans were Hellenized B.C Posted: 27-Jun-2005 at 04:24 |
There are pieces of lemon peel floating down the Thames which have a
greater right to claim descendance from the humanist, democratic,
aesthetic and religious traditions of classical Greece and later epochs
of Greek culture, than right-wing, Turk and Macedon bashing, xeno- and
homophobic Greek ultra-nationalists, who, thank God, however only
represent a very small minority both in Greece and AE. |
Don't you just love it when in lack of any real arguments, we turn a discussion into personal attacks.
Why attempt to turn this into some nationalistic discussion when proof of our statements are all around you.
It is a fact that Hellinic colonies did exist before the founding of
Rome. The Roman people were surrounded by Hellenized Etruscans in the
north, and Hellinic colonists in Naples and Sicily in the south for
hundreds of years.
We can actually find Hellinic influence in every single aspect of the Roman world.
Roman philosophy derived from Hellinic philosophy, Roman art derived
from Hellinic art, Roman plays were strongly influenced by Hellinic
plays, Roman religion was nothing more than the Hellinic Gods, Roman
architecture was the adoption of the Doric, Ionic and Corinthian styles
that gave birth to their own "hybrid" style named "Composite".
Hell, the Romans even connected themselves to the Hellinic world through their early history (Troyan cycle).
Name us "right-wing, Turk and Macedon bashing, xeno- and homophobic
Greek ultra-nationalists" all you like, but facts are facts and won't
change because of your prejudices and that fear of knowledge you seem
to have.
Do yourself a favor and do a search on "Greek influence on Rome", you
just might see that we ultra-right nationalists, are right.
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To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.
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Yiannis
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Posted: 27-Jun-2005 at 04:36 |
Parmenion & Phallanx, go a long way to show their ulta-right, nationalist face. I don't know guys, perhaps you read too much of "Tiletora" material, but trust me, while ancient Greece has given much to the (western) world and Rome was indeed influenced by the Greeks, it's far from being "Hellenized".
PS
Dome was indeed used by the Greeks but the Romans perfected it and invented the arch.
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The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics
Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin
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Phallanx
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Posted: 27-Jun-2005 at 05:46 |
Yiannis
Perfecting is quite different to inventing.
I suggest you change the word "invented" with "perfected" in your
example of the arch. A simple look at the ancient city of Tyrinth or
the "Arch bridge" just outside Asini prove the invention origin to be quite
different.
Any info on what frequency "Tiletora" is broadcasting???
Edited by Phallanx
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To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.
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Menippos
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Posted: 27-Jun-2005 at 06:40 |
LOL guys, I am enjoying this!
Most of the arguments presented here are either pro- or contra- this article/study/whatever. But how can one single individual cause so much controversy? I'll tell you how. Because some people are quick in adopting any attractive idea and others are absolutely adamant in rejecting any different idea. There are few of us in here (myself included) that sometimes are sweetened by something we read and sometimes we are terrified with the idea that history might actually not be what we have been brought up with. So any kind of presentation that either supports or discredits what we are accustomed with will find strong supporters as well as fierce rivals.
But back to the subject: No, Rome was not Hellenised or whatever-ised by anyone. It was Rome and it evolved. It was an empore which originated from many things, rose, peaked, and then declined and crumbled. As all empires. It was influenced and it changed, as it met new things, cultures, civilisations, customs, ideas and so on, during its expansion.
My view.
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GENERAL PARMENION
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Posted: 27-Jun-2005 at 06:44 |
Originally posted by Komnenos
Originally posted by Constantine XI
I won't deny for a moment the Romans were heavily influenced by the Greeks, there is plenty of evidence to demonstrate that. But to actually go so far as to say the Romans were Hellenized is unfair. It defers alot of the credit that this magnificent culture deserves to be acknowledged for.....
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I agree with almost everything you've said, although I believe you're wasting your time trying to lead a discussion with well founded and unbiased arguments. The intention of the author of this article and the chap who pasted it onto AE is not to lead an intelligent debate about an disputable aspect of Greek-Roman relationship, but to, once again, unleash the claims of an alleged Greek cultural superiority onto the unsuspecting public. I find it rather ironic that the Greek ultra-nationalist,who at every given opportunity stress the alleged all conquering superiority of the traditions of Greek antiquity, are probably in the least position to claim that heritage. There are pieces of lemon peel floating down the Thames which have a greater right to claim descendance from the humanist, democratic, aesthetic and religious traditions of classical Greece and later epoches of Greek culture, than right-wing, Turk and Macedon bashing, xeno- and homophobic Greek ultra-nationalists, who, thank God, however only represent a very small minority both in Greece and AE. The world is very much aware of what it owes Greek antiquity and the last thing we need are lectures by Greek nationalists. |
I have long ago rested my case with you !!
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"There is no doubt, that Macedonians were Greeks."
(Robin Lane Fox "Historian-Author" In Interview with newspaper TO BHMA)
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dorian
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Posted: 27-Jun-2005 at 08:05 |
.....right-wing, Turk and Macedon bashing, xeno- and homophobic Greek ultra-nationalists, who, thank God, however only represent a very small minority both in Greece and AE.
Well done Komnenos!!! You are a honest broker!
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"We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians.That's who we are!We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia�Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" Kiro Gligorov FYROM
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Komnenos
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Posted: 27-Jun-2005 at 08:09 |
Originally posted by dorian
.....right-wing, Turk and Macedon bashing, xeno- and homophobic Greek ultra-nationalists, who, thank God, however only represent a very small minority both in Greece and AE.
Well done Komnenos!!! You area honest broker! |
Sorry, don't get it! Is that a compliment?
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[IMG]http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i137/komnenos/crosses1.jpg">
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Menippos
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Posted: 27-Jun-2005 at 08:11 |
LOL - just smile and say thanks
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Constantine XI
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Posted: 27-Jun-2005 at 09:53 |
My apologies for the mistake about the dome. That is the great thing about this forum, we can make contributions to the study of history and at the same time each one of us is stimulated and encouraged to learn new things or correct false ideas. I suppose I made that statement because I remember seeing a huge Roman domed building in which stands that hallmark statue of Octavianus, while I had not seen anything of comparable splendour amongst ancient Greek remains. If you have a link I wouldn't mind checking out the classical Greek domes though.
Also I would like the check the credentials of this author. This is not the sort of thing that heats me up on an emotional level. There are alot of arguments either way about how Hellenized the Romans were, it is one of those issues where a debate can drag on for ever. In such instances where the sheer mass of different arguments make the whole topic totally inconclusive an examination of the credentials of the authors is often quite useful.
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Yiannis
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Posted: 27-Jun-2005 at 10:23 |
I can't find a proper picture of the interior so please settle with these ones! The famous Roman dome that you refer to is probably the Pantheon. Of course the most famous of all domes is the Agia Sophia one!
http://projectsx.dartmouth.edu/classics/history/bronze_age/l essons/les/19.html#2
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The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics
Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin
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Phallanx
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Posted: 27-Jun-2005 at 11:08 |
Credentials.
Hmm, well from the little info I managed to find:
His studied in the (sorry but can't make out the school's name) school
of the University of Massachusetts, the Orthodox school of Boston,
Protestand studies at Yale, the Russian school of Theology of New York
and at the Russian school of Theology at Paris.
In 1968 he was voted and in 1970 appointed Prof. at the Theologic
school of the University of Thessaloniki, he was Dr. at the University
of Massachusetts and was preparing to be appointed as History Prof.
either at Harvard or Yale. In 1970 was appointed a visiting Prof. seat
at the University of Balamand (sp?) of Lebannon. In 1984 he resigned
from his seat in the University of Thessaloniki and spent his time
writing untill his death in 2001.
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To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.
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Spartakus
Tsar
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Posted: 27-Jun-2005 at 11:24 |
For those who have the "fighting" mood:Guys,take a break.It's summer.
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"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
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Temujin
King
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Posted: 27-Jun-2005 at 13:40 |
Originally posted by Yiannis
PS
Dome was indeed used by the Greeks but the Romans perfected it and invented the arch.
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well, the arch was invented by Assyrians, we already had that discussion and Ashur when he was still active had written an article about it.
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Phallanx
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Posted: 27-Jun-2005 at 23:51 |
Originally posted by Temujin
well, the arch was invented by Assyrians, we already had that
discussion and Ashur when he was still active had written an article
about it. |
I found a couple of references on it being a Sumerian invention but no
pics nor date. Do you have any of either for the Assyrians?
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To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.
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Guests
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Posted: 28-Jun-2005 at 15:37 |
Originally posted by Phallanx
Credentials.
Hmm, well from the little info I managed to find:
His studied in the (sorry but can't make out the school's name) school
of the University of Massachusetts, the Orthodox school of Boston,
Protestand studies at Yale, the Russian school of Theology of New York
and at the Russian school of Theology at Paris.
In 1968 he was voted and in 1970 appointed Prof. at the Theologic
school of the University of Thessaloniki, he was Dr. at the University
of Massachusetts and was preparing to be appointed as History Prof.
either at Harvard or Yale. In 1970 was appointed a visiting Prof. seat
at the University of Balamand (sp?) of Lebannon. In 1984 he resigned
from his seat in the University of Thessaloniki and spent his time
writing untill his death in 2001.
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Isn't it funny how this man has only gone to either Orthodox or Greek
universities or schooling? He has no sources, there are no other sites
that support it, so case closed. It's not that hard to understand. I
understand you're being nationalistic, but get real!
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jdb777
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Posted: 28-Jun-2005 at 15:46 |
harken back to the foundings of Rome, listen to the poetry of Virgil, observe the Roman Gods...voila...lol
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Phallanx
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Posted: 28-Jun-2005 at 17:21 |
Originally posted by TheSicilianVespers
]
Isn't it funny how this man has only gone to either Orthodox or Greek
universities or schooling? He has no sources, there are no other sites
that support it, so case closed. It's not that hard to understand. I
understand you're being nationalistic, but get real! |
As much as I want to be calm, another internet scholar always pops up with the deluted idea of knowing everything.
What difference would it have made if he had studied Islam or Buddhism the topic is actually Historic and not Theologic!!!!!
Had you understood the first thing about histric facts, you would have
avoided the nationalistic BS and searched for the sources he used.
(it's funny how you're able to judge me, having had only 7 posts in
these fora and talked to me what 1-2 times? let others that know be
better do the judging)
You once again speak of sources and sites, whoever told you that there
is a site that will always serve you in a platter the knowledge you
lack? (as seen in Vergil's Aeneid example)
Look up his sources (there are a load of links to classic texts in
another topic) and find, not many, just one quote that has been
manipulated by him and gives a totally different meaning than what he
presents. Then and only then, may you speak of a rediculous theory and
be Komnenos' parrot, babbling about nationalism.
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To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.
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hugoestr
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Posted: 28-Jun-2005 at 17:46 |
Just a note about the Greek origen of the Roman people: Latin is a very different language than Greek, and it is not a descendent from it. This seems to indicate that the Romans didn't come from Greek stock.
The Roman culture and sensibilities were quite different too. Even after centuries of direct contact with Greece, the Romans kept their distinct character. Examing Roman and Greek philosophy, we find that Roman philosophers gravitate to practical matters, never achieving the same heights that Greek philosophy had (for that matter, no one really did in the Western world until Descartes).
Roman authors claiming Greek origens are attempting to shower their past with the glories of, what they believed, to be a superior civilization. This happens all the time. The Aztecs did the same with older MesoAmerican civilizations.
Besides, the fact that Romans are not ethnically Greek or were not completely hellenized doesn't take away any of the glories of Greek culture. The fact that Romans wanted to to see themselves as Greek descendents should be enough praise to the culture that founded the Western cultural tradition.
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Phallanx
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Posted: 28-Jun-2005 at 18:19 |
hugoestr
Well you may be correct on the Romans attempting to connect themselves
to the Hellinic world which is probably the reason we find so many
references in their texts, it is probable but not definite.
As for the language, you're wrong. We could list literally thousands of
words not to mention roots, prefixes and suffixes that are Hellinic in
origin. Latin is definitely strongly influenced by the Hellinic lang.
as my man Dionysus of Halicarnassus put it:
"The language spoken by the Romans is neither utterly barbarous nor
absolutely Hellinic, but a mixture, as it were, of both, the greater
part of which is Aeolic and the only disadvantage they have experienced
from their intermingling with these various nations is that they do not
pronounce all their sounds properly. But all other indications of a
Hellinic origin they preserve beyond any other colonists."
(Roman Antiquities I-90)
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To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.
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hugoestr
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Posted: 28-Jun-2005 at 19:21 |
Phallanx,
Latin and Greek are two very different langugages. Latin has five noun cases; Greek only has four. Greek has a dual person; Latin lacks its.
Even though Latin borrowed many words from Greek, the the words are different enough that most of us can easily tell words with Latin origens from Greek ones.
And there are many sounds in Greek that Latin didn't have. Latin transliterations had to invent letter clusters to stand for Greek sounds.
Besides, I am not breaking any ground here: the linguistic independence of Latin from Greek has been well established. Consult any language tree, and you will see that Latin doesn't come from Greek.
The writer you quote is another example of tying Rome to Greece. The similarities between the two language are due to their common indo-european roots. Given that linguistics had to wait until the 19th century to be invented, the conclusion from the ancient is not surprising: Greece had the acknowledged higher civilization, and it only made sense that the similarities were due to Latin's being a daugther language from Greek.
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