Who are the Kurds?

The different speakers of Kurdish are as Kurdish as the different speakers of Turkish are Turkish. Understand? Stop trying to fog up the issue with your ultra-nationalist and fascist insecurities.

Zendebaad Kurdistan!

Originally posted by Zagros Purya The different speakers of Kurdish are as Kurdish as the different speakers of Turkish are Turkish.

I dont know that, Im trying to learn.. so you are saying that kurdish spoken by all with all its dialects is understood by all right? Turkish is spoken by over 125 million people worldwide, and in the main part its understood, the only words that are a problem is the persian and arabic ones and grammer.. How many people talk which variant of kurdish?

Understand? Stop trying to fog up the issue with your ultra-nationalist and fascist�insecurities. Zendebaad Kurdistan!

Learning from what peoples knowledge of history about the kurds isn't turkish nationalizm at all.. it seems you're the one who is insecure, if you want to post something other than history and knowledge post it in the in Historical amusement, Modern History or International Relations, World Affairs and Armed Forces like I said to "Indiana Jones" who tried to posted politics here..
for such a discussian



Edited by baracuda

Oguzoglu

While I can underestand your hidden hostility from Kurds and Kurdish issues which is so clear in your tone and lines is because of your commitment to your country and your patrioritic feelings,I must say your are not just in your judgement.
First except from very few Turkomen tribes you can not find any kurdified turks,but vice versa is much more prevelant.
Second qizilbash and Baktashi are religious sects and religios sects are not based on racial purity or languages.

And for answering your Quote:

Originally posted by Oguzoglu the Kurds didnt have any ethnical or national dintity until some foregin powers' policies forced them to create an artificial one

In Shahnameh (national Iranian Epic )aproximately 1000 years ago,There is a chapter that tell a long story about the origin of Kurds and at the end,it  finish the story with this sentence

"konun Kord az An Tokhmeh dArad nejAd"

And Now Kurds are from that race

Although I hope other forumers could give better translations.
This means that even 1000 years ago kurds were considered as a seperate naion or even race.

 

"Hushyar" well variants of turkish like you say are easier to understand when they are in written form, but after getting used to the way its spoken one can understand clearly (apart from non turkic words)

Thanks for the information on the kurdish dialects.. I will look into them, and try to find some sources..

I wanted also to ask.. the origin of the present day kurds.. in that, who they really are.. meaning to say is there any historical reference to them from the Seljuk, Ottoman periods of the area.. either by them or by any other third country.. from these times..

YEAH

Originally posted by baracuda "Hushyar" well variants of turkish like you say are easier to understand when they are in written form, but after getting used to the way its spoken one can understand clearly (apart from non turkic words) Thanks for the information on the kurdish dialects.. I will look into them, and try to find some sources.. I wanted also to ask.. the origin of the present day kurds.. in that, who they really are.. meaning to say is there any historical reference to them from the Seljuk, Ottoman periods of the area.. either by them or by any other third country.. from these times..

Origins:
I don't think I can add anything to what sharukin said refer to his post.

In later times we knew that Tigran the Great King of Armenia after defeating the Parthians
and conquering the athropaten(Azarbaijan) and Albania(Aran or modern day Azerbaijan republics)
conqured Gordian a land south and southwest of Athropaten

In Sassanaid:
We Knew the Ardeshir I had fought a terrible war with Kurds and defeated them.

Invasion of Islam:In Paveh (Iranian Kurdistan) Muslims won a bloody war against Kurds.(Tabari History).In  batle of Tuj  Kurds were the toughest groups in Ajams(Arabs called Iranian) that at last after they encircled they gave up.

In Islamic times there are many references to Kurds If you be familiar with Arabic and Persian litreature.In every history book.

I want just mention the name of Kurdistan.

Kurdistan as the name of land (the earlist record that I know)was first used in times of Saljuqs:

1)Tarikh_e_Rawandi (RAhatt_o_sodur va Ayato_s_sorur)The text is persian,Which state the name of Kurdistan as province of Saljuqian_e_Araq many Times.
2)Manshe'At The letters of Sultan Sanjar in which he divided the country of Great Saljuq and  Hamedan Saljuq and gave the mas'ud Kurdistan as one of the provinces.

Then we have mohammad khwarazmshah who wanted to pass Kurdistan mountains to Punish Chaliphate but he couldn't because of snow and storm.
Jalal_ad_din who fought for Kurdistan with Ayyubids and Slajuqian_E_Rum.
In the Times of JalAyerids (Sultan Oweys_e_JalAyeri)Kurdistan was Called as one of the provinces.
The defeat of qaraqoyunlu by Aqqoyunlu (Uzun hasan) and mentioning Kurdistan as one of provinces Of Aqqoyunlu.

In the safavid and Othmans the name of Kurdistan became routine.I think the most valuble source about kurds in this time is Sharafnameh Betlisi.This book is persian but it had been translated to many other languages because it is the most valuable source about the history of Kurds specially in middle ages.I think there must be russian translation of this book because many russian historian used this book as source.This book has been written in 1596 In bitlis.

Unfortunately because I don't know turkish language (actually a big bug) I know nothing about Othmans period except one book (QAmus -al-loghat -al-Torky)it was considered as Turkish encyclopedia in Othman Times.
If you could find any editions or prints befor 1935,you could find many valuable informations about Kurds and Kurdistan.I think Kazan,Moskow ans St.PetersBurg must have the 19th century prints of this Book.In Other languages the most valuable source is Book of P.A.Jaubert(1779-1859) "Voyage en Armenie et en Perse"which I think is the most valuable source about Kurds and Kurdistan in 1806-1808.

It is morning now and I hastily typed what I remembered,I must go out now,and maybe there exist some grmmatical and spellling errors.If you could not underestand what I said,I will be glad If you'll remind me.
I hope these sources be enough for you.

 

 

 

 

Oguzoglu:

A man who claims this has to be either illiterate, or ignorant. Illiterate, because he cant or couldnt read or understand my posts; ignorant because he doesnt even care what do I feel about Kurds and how much do I know them, but just acts with his blind national feelings to try to protect them.

1) you are very angry.
2) drink a glass of water and if you are still angry repeat the action.
3) never do personal attack because you must be  polite in these forums ,after all this is a scientific forum!!!!.
4) I don't know why you turks are so angry and by any statement you will jump and explode.
5)I don't protect anybody,I just showed you that you made a mistake (and I think this made you so angry!!! be Calm boy)
6)I just politely used the word Hostility and look what did you said:
illitirate,ignorant,a tool in the hands of Imperialism (very close to Mullah's sayings),your mentality is sick man!!!,blind national feelings...
7)Why I used the word Hostility ,Because I didn't want to use more offending words (unlike you I always check my writings)
Look in these two months how many times in every discussions which name Kurd appeared,Turkey Iraq,Antractica... ,you appeared and after a full Lecture,(you could be a good orator,believe me just control your mode),repeat the same boring sentence:

" Kurds never had any naional or ethnical identity until some foreign power came and create an artificial identity for them."
"until 70s there was no mention of Kurds in our country,and then some Imperialistic Power came and creat this problem for us".
"Kurds are mixture of persians and Turks"
"Because European powers want to disintegrate othman empire they sent some agents and created a so called nation in the name of kurd"
"many yuruks fled from war and became kurds"
" many alavi fled from othmans and became Kurd"

What are these sentences?Do you realy believe in them,Are you so naive?Even children laugh at these stories.Or you know the truth but pretend to deny the facts,I think this is more ashaming.So I just concluded that you are too sensitive to name of Kurd(maybe I was wrong which you should warn me not attack me)

and your intersting lecture:

Who do you think you are protecting against me?......... .....................  not with an artificial nation of Kurdistan as a western puppet...

So what!!!Do you realy think It is important for me what will be happened in your country?Let it be split or not.you want to exterminate Kurds like Armenian in 1915 or become kurdish as your national language along Turkish.I don't mind.
This is History forum and I am here to discuss about historical facts not with what to do or not to do.I am not politician and if I ever want to speak about politics I will speak about politics of my country.But I am very sensitive to historical inaccurasies and always remind them because I believe history is science.

Back to history:

with an artificial nation of Kurdistan

Surely your english is better than me,So you surely know that we have Nation of Kurd which is not artificial,(I proved that) and country of Kurdistan which does not exist to become artificial or natural So What was your meaning?

And by that poem I showed you that you made a mistake,and you didn't bother yourself to answer me, but like in the discussion of Iraq Kurdistan
instead of answering you again print a manifest this time much harsher.If you found that you are wrong simply accept it and don't change the discussion by giving another political lecture.

And the last quote:
Life is short,take it easy,Don't think that everybody is your enemy.(specially nonTurks)

Edited by Hushyar

Originally posted by Hushyar Originally posted by Yafes .......... Well Honestly I can not underestand your special interest in this specific word,I think it must be just because of some scientific reasons or another reasons!!!!???....anyway its none of my business back to topic: you wrote: Kurdish is definitely a dialect of Irani. Many words spoken in kurdish are pure persian words. So we here have an Irani language and a dialect Kurdi O.K. Now: You wrote again:  We have several dialcts of kurdish in Turkey: Highway D-80, 16th km      "        D-100, 51st km........................... I'm not joking. They don't understand eachother easily. May you please give me this honour and tell me which of these sentences I must answer? regards Oh another thing,I'm sorry but pronounciation of that word in Kurdish and Persian differs.

Let me explain: yes they speak Irani in a mean and this may be a common point,  but they use it quite out of an discipline. Some use %50 Turkish words, some use %60 turkish/arabic words and some use equal other words of Persian instead of the other words. And there's no intellectual sight focused on this lang. problem. What they speak is not even a proper lang. system.

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri It is better to ask who are these Turks and Arabs in Kurdistan? who are the Kurds? They are an Iranian people like Persians, Baluchis, Afghans, Tajiks, ... did they just popup like mushrooms? No, they have at least 3,000 years recorded history. from history looking back.... I cant see any time they existed in the area sorry it shows you know nothing about the history of this part of the world! yes there are writings claiming that this area has kurds etc.. but I suppose that is more political than the truth Why?!

exactly,but weren't the kurds the oldest people that settled there?

Kurds are "unmixed" Iranians.They have been living in their lands for ~4000 years (3000 years before the arrival of Turkmens in 11th century.)

Recently,they are becoming more and more Iranophlie!

For instance For Persian-speaking members)

http://zanyar.blogfa.com/post-56.aspx

As you can see,the Kurdish author of this article is very Iranist and Anti-Turkist