Who are the Kurds?
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Category: General History
Forum Name: Archaeology & Anthropology
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URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3503
Printed Date: 25-Apr-2024 at 02:13
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Topic: Who are the Kurds?
Posted By: baracuda
Subject: Who are the Kurds?
Date Posted: 20-May-2005 at 04:54
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Just out of interest "who are the Kurds?" did they just popup like mushrooms? from history looking back.... I cant see any time they existed in the area....(yes there are writings claiming that this area has kurds etc.. but I suppose that is more political than the truth)
anyway what is their roots? which people? and please before you answer the question for something to be historically viable, you need proof.. and that is some 3rd nation confirmation of that era of existance. P.s. some of their dialects are similar with turkish and georgian...but that most probably states that those people are from those area's rather than of people.... If you have any info.. write I would be interested to know... |
Replies:
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 20-May-2005 at 05:29
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It is better to ask who are these Turks and Arabs in Kurdistan?
They are an Iranian people like Persians, Baluchis, Afghans, Tajiks, ...
No, they have at least 3,000 years recorded history.
sorry it shows you know nothing about the history of this part of the world!
Why?! ------------- 
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Posted By: baracuda
Date Posted: 20-May-2005 at 06:04
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"Cyrus Shahmiri"
"They are an Iranian people like Persians, Baluchis, Afghans, Tajiks, ..." - thats the first time I am hearing that the kurds are iranian in origin... so that would in a sense put them in this region in what period? "No, they have at least 3,000 years recorded history." - Well looking at chronological maps of different periods.. there are no Kurdistan nor is there any mention of Kurds..in region from Transoxiana to the middle east... periods from Ghaznevids 963 AD........Seljuks 1038-1307.. to Ottomans 1281-1923.. (of course Karakhanids, Tulunids, Atabeks,Zengids,Ildeniz,Salgurids, Artukids,Danismendids,Mengujukids,Saltukids,Kharzem Shahs,Mamluks,Timurids,Karakoyunlu,Akkoyunlu,Safevids,Karama nids,Menteseids,Jandarids,Germiyanids,Hamidids,Saruhanids,Ay dinids,Eretnids,Dulkadirids, Ramazanids... etc inbetween) so if you say they have 3000 year history.. tell me where and when to look for them.., what regions, what people..what period.. Byzantine, Persian, Seljuks ? and 3000 years with no writen or spoken standard language? "sorry it shows you know nothing about the history of this part of the world! " I know quite a bit about this part of the world but there are no resources that I have come accross that date back further than modern times about the kurds.. which seems strange "yes there are writings claiming that this area has kurds etc.. but I suppose that is more political than the truth " - "Why?!" - Why, well.. think.. being an outsider to the area presume you are the EU or the US.. and you need to control the area..its better for you to have a more mouldable country named Kurdistan with people that will look up to you and wont be against you... in the area than to have 3-4 military giant countries that wont kneel before anyone nor will they be controlled by anyone (Iran, Turkey, Syria...) ... easier to control.. so they provide all the support they can.. As a turk who's family faught and bled with the people of the area.. I couldn't care less about who people begin calling themselves I dont even mind if you start your own people "Cyrus Shahmiri'ians" and claim on regions.. but as the region forgets it own history and looses itself to political mouldings of outsiders.. we all loose.. |
Posted By: Alparslan
Date Posted: 20-May-2005 at 09:39
If you really want to create a place like Kurdistan just look at inside Iran and ask this question differently....
No in fact they were the ex-habitants of Atlantis. |
Posted By: Ionian
Date Posted: 20-May-2005 at 09:41
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kurds r the ancient mydians. A persian race population... |
Posted By: Ionian
Date Posted: 20-May-2005 at 09:59
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Posted By: baracuda
Date Posted: 20-May-2005 at 10:18
I wouldn't call them persian.. but 7-6BC on the Mydians.. Atropatena... so you're tieing them with ancient azerbaijan.. that is before it was massively overtaken by turkic tribes.. maybe.. have to look into that.. But I still doubt that todays kurds can be tied to them.. they are most probably some other people.. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 20-May-2005 at 11:01
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Kurds are Iranic people, but they dont have a specific settlement region. They were consisted of nomadic Iranic tribes, and they once settled in western Iran, northern mesopotamia. But these are all before the existance of a national identity as "Kurds". During the Ottoman reign, Kurds were mostly consisted of Alevis and Shias in the beginning, after they were being converted to Sunnite sect systematically. As we know, societies were differed according to religious groups in the Ottoman system, so Turkmens, Kurds and Zazas were considered as the same nomadic people and most of the Kurdish society was living in mountaionous regions. Then, with the religious and economical oppressing of the Ottomans, a big amount of the Anatolian Turkmens became "yrk"s, a word derived from the verb "yrmek" (walking) in Turkish. They immigrated to those mountaionous areas of Eastern and southern Anatolia, and even northern Anatolia. And much of them were mixed and lost their national identities. So there appeared the current Kurds, with mixing of Turkmens and all other Alevi, Shia people (Zazas, Muslim Armenians etc.). They didnt have any national identities and goals of independence since the collapse of Ottoman Empire. But after the collapse of the empire, with the western provokations and some non-Kurdish and even non-Muslim leaders, they became a nation and were tried to be seperated from us. But the authorities reacted these actions hardly, with wrong policies. So today, they are seen as our enemies and a totally different ethnic group of middle east, but in fact, they are just some imperialism tools for the total control of middle east and eastern Anatolia. Even the provokative people who call themselves Kurds arent the real Kurds, and arent our brothers like real Kurds. But unfortunately, international media is a very effective weapon for some powes and their bullets are propoganda. And this propoganda can even be enough to seperate us from our brothers. That is a shame... ------------- |
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 20-May-2005 at 12:42
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Map of Parthian Empire (247 BC-224 AD):
Gordyene (Kurdistan) is the west of Atropatene (Azarbaijan) and the south of Armenia. Map of Safavid Empire (1501 AD-1736 AD):
And as you see Kurds are still in the same region. http://iranmiras.ir/fr_site/history/hakhamanesh/Image-29.jpg - Map of Achaemenid Empire (521 - 486 BC / Darius the Great) [Kurds (Corduenes) are in the same region] http://iranmiras.ir/fr_site/history/salookian/Image-39.jpg - Map of Seleucid Empire (312 - 281 BC) [Kurds (Carduchis) are in the same region] http://iranmiras.ir/fr_site/history/sasani/Image-42.jpg - Map of Sassanid Empire [Kurds (Corduenes) are in the same region] http://iranmiras.ir/fr_site/history/ziar/Image-61.jpg - Map of Zeyarid Empire (928 - 1023 AD) [Kurds are in the same region] http://iranmiras.ir/fr_site/history/salgoghi/Image-75.jpg - Map of Seljuq Empire (1072 - 1092 AD) [Kurdistan is a major province in the north of Iraq-e-Arab] http://iranmiras.ir/fr_site/history/esmaili/Image-84.jpg - Map of Assassins (1090 - 1124 AD) [Kurds are in the same region] http://iranmiras.ir/fr_site/history/atabak-kharazm/Image-91.jpg - Map of Khwarazm-Shah Empire (1171 - 1230 AD) [Kurdistan is conquered by Sultan Muhammad] http://iranmiras.ir/fr_site/history/atabak-kharazm/Image-92.jpg - Map of Atabegs (1160 AD) [East Kurdistan (part of Seljuq of Iraq) and West Kurdistan (part of Atabeg of Musel)] http://iranmiras.ir/fr_site/history/moghol/Image-93.jpg - Map of Ilkhanid Empire (1253 - 1291 AD) [Kurdistan is one of the largest provinces] http://iranmiras.ir/fr_site/history/teymoor/Image-96.jpg - Map of Timurid Empire (1404 - 1446 AD) [Kurdistan is one of the largest provinces] http://iranmiras.ir/fr_site/history/afsharieh/Image-100.jpg - Map of Afsharid Empire (1723 - 1735 AD/before reign of Nadir Shah) [Kurdistan is one of the largest provinces] http://iranmiras.ir/fr_site/history/zand/Image-102.jpg - Map of Zand Empire (1749 - 1794 AD) [Kurdistan is one of the largest provinces] http://iranmiras.ir/fr_site/history/ghajar/Image-103.jpg - Map of Qajar Empire (1797 - 1924 AD) [Kurdistan is one of the largest provinces] -------------
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Posted By: ramin
Date Posted: 20-May-2005 at 12:57
Ionian, is that a Greek map or Turkish? I'm curious about the name "Midian Doyleti" baracuda, for written evidence of Kurdish existance and history read about Elamite and their language, Kurdish is a sub-language of Elamitian. Also, you can look for them in Akkadian and Sumerian inscriptions. Anyhow, I try to explain and quote as best as I can; By 7th Cen B.C, Kurds were present in Zagros-mountains, Fars (Perse), and even Kerman (SE Iran). Greek and Roman sources reported a community of people living in central Persia and and in Perse, that they refered to as 'cyrti' (-> Kurti -> Kurdi). Some Islamic sources after Islamic invasion of Iran have mentioned the Kurdish population living in southern Zagros. In ~ 500 B.C Darius in Behistun mentions whe word "kara", the Kurdish guerrilla mountaineers who he fought with and admired their warfare tactics. Medians built their capital Ecbatana, by the help of Kurds, I have a Median inscription right in front of me mentioning the word "Kurd" and "Kurdi" in its translation. ------------- "I won't laugh if a philosophy halves the moon" 
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Posted By: baracuda
Date Posted: 20-May-2005 at 13:03
Im looking in to the maps Cyrus posted.. my arabic is rusty.. but seems interesting.. it will take me sometime.. 
Ramin will also look at what you're saying.. by the way, the map Ionian posted is in Azeri.. azeri is almost exactly the same as turkish, in turkish it would be 'Midiyan Devleti'. |
Posted By: Miller
Date Posted: 20-May-2005 at 14:26
Posted By: Sharrukin
Date Posted: 20-May-2005 at 15:55
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The Assyrians did in fact record the name "Kurti" in the regions where the later Carduchi, Carduene/Gorduene, and the Kurds inhabited, to the north of Assyria. Some make the earliest reference to Kurds as the Guti of the Sumerian sources, inhabitants of the Zagros Mts., however the Assyrians knew them as the Kuti, at the same time they had knowledge of the Kurti. Since the Assyrian references to the Kurti preceded that of the Median conquest of the region, we need to see Kurdish origins as a much more complex process. They inhabited a region which was linguistically Hurrian, a situation which was in evidence since the third millenium BC. They were perhaps Hurrians, or at least Hurrian-related. When the state of Urartu was conquered by the Medes, the Kurti, which were also part of the Urartean state were also conquered. While Urartu was Armenianizing, the Kurds were with much resistance, Aryanizing. The process may have taken centuries since those mountainous regions were difficult to conquer, but even more difficult to hold. The Assyrians were always trying to pacify those mountainous regions, but they knew that these were temporary measures, and even the Persians found these areas difficult to hold. Xenophon, describing the penetration into the mountainous Carduchian region by the 10,000, related that a Persian army had been totally destroyed trying to subdue the region, and the region was thus independent when the 10,000 arrived. |
Posted By: Ionian
Date Posted: 21-May-2005 at 06:53
im agree with u...... its turkish map
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Posted By: Ionian
Date Posted: 21-May-2005 at 06:59
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kurdish language is indoeuropean language..... not altaic(turkish) so kurds nothing to do with turkish.... |
Posted By: Ionian
Date Posted: 21-May-2005 at 07:06
 kurdish populations today
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Posted By: Indiana Jones
Date Posted: 21-May-2005 at 15:06
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Let us not forget of course the new nascent-state movement that the Kurds support. Many of the Kurds would very much like to break off northern Iraq and eastern Turkey to form their own state, Kurdistan. In fact, Turkey has a very tough policy regarding the Kurds in its eastern area. Remember at the beginning of the Iraq occupation that Turkey was about to run into the Kurdish Northern Iraq area to keep it out of the hands of Kurds who might aggitate for nationhood. In fact, one of the reasons they probably did not let the American Army go through Turkey, not only because it was unpopular internationally and in the Middle East, but because the American Army would take the same route into northern Iraq that Turkey itself thought it might run into. |
Posted By: baracuda
Date Posted: 21-May-2005 at 15:26
No politics please, its pointless if you want to argue on the strategical aspects of anything post it somewhere else and I will tell you to's and against for your thoughts, I worked as a military strategist for Nato, until a few years back.. so I have ton's of info on the area in many aspects..
Kurdish from other posts of people who replied to my question, shouldnt be similar in any way to Altaic languages like you say Ionian.. but like I said, I have come to contact with 2 dialects of kurdish, it seems to me that they are a mixture of turkish,persian and georgian languages.. maybe "Oguzoglu" was right in some sense with his idea's of modern kurds. |
Posted By: Indiana Jones
Date Posted: 21-May-2005 at 15:29
| Well, it is a major historical and political issue. The Kurds in eastern Turkey have been mistreated and rather harshly I might add for a long time. I may be new to the boards, but is there an area of time I should not go into? Perhaps I should not speak of the 20th and 19th centuries if it helps to avoid all mention of politics? |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 21-May-2005 at 15:58
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An lots of people who call themselves "Kurds" today are converted or not converted Armenians and the mixture of Turkmens, Kurds and some Assyrians. They have very different dialects that these are like different languages of the same group. For example, Zazaki, Gurani, Dilmiki are very different than Kirmanci and Sorani and the rest of others. Some call themseves "Kizilbash" and some call themselves "Karabash". These werent ethnic names, but just religious/sect names. So these names were also used for the bigger Alevi Turkmen societies. In hostory, because of the religious authority race btw Shia Safavids and Sunnite Ottomans, these Anatolian Alevis were oppressed, and some immigrated, some exiled to Safavid Empire. Then, some of them returned and all of those people who were from different ethnicities but belonged the same sects called themselves in common names. Today, these names are considered as Kurdish, altough the Kurds didnt have any ethnical or national dintity until some foregin powers' policies forced them to create an artificial one. ------------- |
Posted By: baracuda
Date Posted: 21-May-2005 at 16:05
Open a post in Historical amusement, Modern History or International Relations, World Affairs and Armed Forces for such a discussian. This post is about the origins of kurds, modern day kurds, their culture, language.. only. |
Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 26-May-2005 at 19:56
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The different speakers of Kurdish are as Kurdish as the different speakers of Turkish are Turkish. Understand? Stop trying to fog up the issue with your ultra-nationalist and fascist insecurities. Zendebaad Kurdistan! ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 26-May-2005 at 21:07
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Zagros Purya; Do I have to find you writing pathetic things? What is your very sense as you accuse someone "fogging up" here and write "zendebaad kurdistan"??? Kurdistan is the name of a plateu and a region in Iran and it just will stand still like that. In addition; a different speaking of Turkish is as Turkish but any different speaking of kurdish is as IRANI. Kurdish is definitely a dialect of Irani. Many words spoken in kurdish are pure persian words. I myself know enough kurdish not to die. And at least I know "kun" in kurdish is the same "kun" in Irani. (ass) ------------- |
Posted By: baracuda
Date Posted: 26-May-2005 at 22:25
I dont know that, Im trying to learn.. so you are saying that kurdish spoken by all with all its dialects is understood by all right? Turkish is spoken by over 125 million people worldwide, and in the main part its understood, the only words that are a problem is the persian and arabic ones and grammer.. How many people talk which variant of kurdish?
Learning from what peoples knowledge of history about the kurds isn't turkish nationalizm at all.. it seems you're the one who is insecure, if you want to post something other than history and knowledge post it in the in Historical amusement, Modern History or International Relations, World Affairs and Armed Forces like I said to "Indiana Jones" who tried to posted politics here.. for such a discussian |
Posted By: Hushyar
Date Posted: 27-May-2005 at 08:11
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Yafes The word you stated, is its pesian pronounciation,its kurdish is different. Its meaning is much worse than you said and it is considered as taboo.The person who learnt it to you , may wanted to make fun of you.Never use it in any general forum or speaking. And Kurdish is not Irani dialect it is an Iranic Language or better said Iranic language group.
I am living in Iran and have many good friends between Azeris and Turkomans (specially in my millitary service)the thing that I can say that turcoman and azeri are noy mutually underestandable (atleast orally) although as they wrote it down it became clear that they have many words in common.There is another Turkish Oghuz language Sonqori that again Azeris can not underestand it.
I think is a bit exaggeration. Up until now no satisfactoryclassification of Kurdish language has been made Traditionally they are classified as 1)Sorani-Kurmanji 2)Goran(Guran)-Zaza 3)Owrami 4)Kalhori and Ilami and Feyli Sorani and Kurmanji are considered dialect and usually completely underestandable Kalhori Ilami and Feyli are between Sorani,Grani,Persian and Luri.knowing persian and sorani will solve your problem in communicating with them. Owrami is between gorani and sorani. Gorani and Zaza have the same root,but I don't think Zaza's and Gorans will underestand eachother (atleast orally) |
Posted By: Hushyar
Date Posted: 27-May-2005 at 10:47
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Oguzoglu While I can underestand your hidden hostility from Kurds and Kurdish issues which is so clear in your tone and lines is because of your commitment to your country and your patrioritic feelings,I must say your are not just in your judgement. And for answering your Quote:
"konun Kord az An Tokhmeh dArad nejAd" And Now Kurds are from that race Although I hope other forumers could give better translations.
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 27-May-2005 at 10:59
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Hushyar; I'm not taught that word by anyone foreigner. Here in Turkey all the kurds use it for "bottom"(rude-polite the same) And when I searched on the net, I found that the same word is used with the same meaning in Persian. And I'm sure that Cyrus won't take me for insulting anyone or any value. But "kun" and many Irani words are widely spoken by kurds in Turkey. Also, I let it be an "Iranic language" Highway D-80, 16th km " D-100, 51st km I'm not joking. They don't understand eachother easily. ------------- |
Posted By: baracuda
Date Posted: 27-May-2005 at 11:03
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"Hushyar" well variants of turkish like you say are easier to understand when they are in written form, but after getting used to the way its spoken one can understand clearly (apart from non turkic words)
Thanks for the information on the kurdish dialects.. I will look into them, and try to find some sources.. I wanted also to ask.. the origin of the present day kurds.. in that, who they really are.. meaning to say is there any historical reference to them from the Seljuk, Ottoman periods of the area.. either by them or by any other third country.. from these times.. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 27-May-2005 at 11:05
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A man who claims this has to be either illiterate, or ignorant. Illiterate, because he cant or couldnt read or understand my posts; ignorant because he doesnt even care what do I feel about Kurds and how much do I know them, but just acts with his blind national feelings to try to protect them. Who do you think you are protecting against me? Kurds are our brothers as much as they are your brothers. Which hostility? Why would I need any brother hostility? Your mentality is sick man, everybody who knows a bit about the latest Kurdish existance as a nation is a possible Kurdish enemy for you. But this is very wrong. I know Kurds even more than most of the Iranian peoples here speaking and making comments about them. We live with them, we see them, we speak each other everyday, but you dont. Kurds in Turkey are Turkish citizens and they are our brothers, except those ones who betray their country, some of them are forced to do that in small Kurdish villages, others are brainwashed Kurdish "boy"s who are used by some world powers. Face it please, if you really believe Kurds are your brothers, you should also know that they are being used as middle eastern weapons for other imperialist purposes. And maybe, some of our national policies are wrong about them, so there is a great conflict here. But we should solve it here, in Turkey, with real Kurds, not with an artificial nation of Kurdistan as a western puppet... ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 27-May-2005 at 11:14
YEAH ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 27-May-2005 at 11:14
Oh, Kurdish patriot, if I said "zendebaad Azeristan!", "zendebaad Kushistan, Turkashvand!", or "zendebaad southern Turkmenistan (northeastern Iran)!", would you like it? If not, please dont be a toy of imperialist powers. Be logical, and try to find real solutions to our current problem with Kurds... ------------- |
Posted By: Hushyar
Date Posted: 27-May-2005 at 23:12
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Origins: In later times we knew that Tigran the Great King of Armenia after defeating the Parthians In Sassanaid: Invasion of Islam:In Paveh (Iranian Kurdistan) Muslims won a bloody war against Kurds.(Tabari History).In batle of Tuj Kurds were the toughest groups in Ajams(Arabs called Iranian) that at last after they encircled they gave up. In Islamic times there are many references to Kurds If you be familiar with Arabic and Persian litreature.In every history book. I want just mention the name of Kurdistan. Kurdistan as the name of land (the earlist record that I know)was first used in times of Saljuqs: 1)Tarikh_e_Rawandi (RAhatt_o_sodur va Ayato_s_sorur)The text is persian,Which state the name of Kurdistan as province of Saljuqian_e_Araq many Times. Then we have mohammad khwarazmshah who wanted to pass Kurdistan mountains to Punish Chaliphate but he couldn't because of snow and storm. In the safavid and Othmans the name of Kurdistan became routine.I think the most valuble source about kurds in this time is Sharafnameh Betlisi.This book is persian but it had been translated to many other languages because it is the most valuable source about the history of Kurds specially in middle ages.I think there must be russian translation of this book because many russian historian used this book as source.This book has been written in 1596 In bitlis. Unfortunately because I don't know turkish language (actually a big bug) I know nothing about Othmans period except one book (QAmus -al-loghat -al-Torky)it was considered as Turkish encyclopedia in Othman Times. It is morning now and I hastily typed what I remembered,I must go out now,and maybe there exist some grmmatical and spellling errors.If you could not underestand what I said,I will be glad If you'll remind me.
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Posted By: Hushyar
Date Posted: 27-May-2005 at 23:16
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Well Honestly I can not underestand your special interest in this specific word,I think it must be just because of some scientific reasons or another reasons!!!!???....anyway its none of my business
So we here have an Irani language and a dialect Kurdi O.K. Now: You wrote again:
May you please give me this honour and tell me which of these sentences I must answer? regards Oh another thing,I'm sorry but pronounciation of that word in Kurdish and Persian differs. |
Posted By: Hushyar
Date Posted: 27-May-2005 at 23:27
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Oguzoglu:
1) you are very angry. 2) drink a glass of water and if you are still angry repeat the action. 3) never do personal attack because you must be polite in these forums ,after all this is a scientific forum!!!!. 4) I don't know why you turks are so angry and by any statement you will jump and explode. 5)I don't protect anybody,I just showed you that you made a mistake (and I think this made you so angry!!! be Calm boy) 6)I just politely used the word Hostility and look what did you said: illitirate,ignorant,a tool in the hands of Imperialism (very close to Mullah's sayings),your mentality is sick man!!!,blind national feelings... 7)Why I used the word Hostility ,Because I didn't want to use more offending words (unlike you I always check my writings) Look in these two months how many times in every discussions which name Kurd appeared,Turkey Iraq,Antractica... ,you appeared and after a full Lecture,(you could be a good orator,believe me just control your mode),repeat the same boring sentence: " Kurds never had any naional or ethnical identity until some foreign power came and create an artificial identity for them." What are these sentences?Do you realy believe in them,Are you so naive?Even children laugh at these stories.Or you know the truth but pretend to deny the facts,I think this is more ashaming.So I just concluded that you are too sensitive to name of Kurd(maybe I was wrong which you should warn me not attack me) and your intersting lecture:
So what!!!Do you realy think It is important for me what will be happened in your country?Let it be split or not.you want to exterminate Kurds like Armenian in 1915 or become kurdish as your national language along Turkish.I don't mind. Back to history:
Surely your english is better than me,So you surely know that we have Nation of Kurd which is not artificial,(I proved that) and country of Kurdistan which does not exist to become artificial or natural So What was your meaning?
And the last quote: |
Posted By: ramin
Date Posted: 28-May-2005 at 00:15
 "Repeat the action" meaning forever?! ------------- "I won't laugh if a philosophy halves the moon"
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 28-May-2005 at 06:18
Let me explain: yes they speak Irani in a mean and this may be a common point, but they use it quite out of an discipline. Some use %50 Turkish words, some use %60 turkish/arabic words and some use equal other words of Persian instead of the other words. And there's no intellectual sight focused on this lang. problem. What they speak is not even a proper lang. system. ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 28-May-2005 at 06:21
And I don't have to get interested in that word specially. I have one , ok???------------- |
Posted By: aknc
Date Posted: 28-May-2005 at 07:50
exactly,but weren't the kurds the oldest people that settled there? ------------- "I am the scourage of god appointed to chastise you,since no one knows the remedy for your iniquity exept me.You are wicked,but I am more wicked than you,so be silent!" |
Posted By: aknc
Date Posted: 28-May-2005 at 07:56
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Yes,we even destroyed their "Temple of the doom"
------------- "I am the scourage of god appointed to chastise you,since no one knows the remedy for your iniquity exept me.You are wicked,but I am more wicked than you,so be silent!" |
Posted By: Ardashir
Date Posted: 28-May-2005 at 10:02
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Kurds are "unmixed" Iranians.They have been living in their lands for ~4000 years (3000 years before the arrival of Turkmens in 11th century.) Recently,they are becoming more and more Iranophlie! For instance http://zanyar.blogfa.com/post-56.aspx - http://zanyar.blogfa.com/post-56.aspx As you can see,the Kurdish author of this article is very Iranist and Anti-Turkist ------------- http://khakokhoon.blogfa.com |
For Persian-speaking members)Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 28-May-2005 at 11:12
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Zendebad Azarbaijan! a unique and eternal part of Iran. I went to an IRANIAN new year party in Pittsburgh organised by proud Azari-Iranians, there were peoms in Azari and Persian. There are many Iranian heroes and heroins of Azari descent and they are Iranian first: Hossein Rezadadeh and Googoosh to name just two. Turkey offered Rezadadeh $10m to sell his nationality and weight lift for Turkey, he stated that his allegiance is not for sale! Your problem with Kurds is that you tell them they are not Kurdish, and try to erase their identity. What do you think? That they will go like lambs to the slaughter? Think again.
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Posted By: Hushyar
Date Posted: 28-May-2005 at 11:46
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I have never been in your country,but I have chatted and also took part in many kurdish forums which many of the members are Turkey citizens,some of them are in Turkey and some of them are in Europian countries. There is dialectical difference,but they are all speaking kurmanji true and it was interesting for me that influence of Turkish in Kurmanji is so little compared to zaza and even Surani(which has got many words from azeri)
Mohandesi e narmafzAr shAkhe ist az mohandesi.Mohandesi e narmafzAr pishe ist ke be yAri e dAneshe rAyAne va digar fanAvarihA va raveshhA be Afaridan va negAhdAri e narmafzArhay e rAyAnei mipardAzad. These are not my senteces I just converted it to phonetic carachters,I will show the links later. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 28-May-2005 at 16:34
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Honestly, I don't know what it means but I just feel the same when a kurd speaks. And I didn't claim any knowledge on kurmanji or persian. I just said I know a bit kurdish as much as not to die among kurds. (well I knew more when I was a child but then forgot mostly. My fathers side is kurdish because. and they should be speaking it in their houses and occations with relatives) 1 my comments about words: those persian words of they speak are mostly which also intruded the Turkish lang. 2 and those percentages I gave are not absolute. Also, I don't know why you Iranians take this kurdish issue as a matter of "pride"??? I mean these kurds somehow got aware of that they were a nation(!) when the British kingdom wanted to use them against Ottoman Empire 100 years ago. If there were russians living there, it would be the "russian issue" because oil is there. in this goddamn political situation, anglo-american-zionists have wanted to keep the middleeast in chaos, so like every region in the middle east, they spreaded their seeds of anger and conflict in south-east Turkey, too. ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 28-May-2005 at 16:43
How do the hell can you say that??? The half of the bureoucrats of the turkish rep. are kurdish. the most rich families are kurdish in turkey. kurdish families(ashirats i mean) hold the vote potential as block amounts in their own hand and using this against their own state, like sending MPs is npt enough. what you tell is filfully a provocative statement. only apolitisized european youth claims that. honestly i'd rather expect more objective approaches from Iranians in AE. and after all: THIS GODDAMN PROBLEM IS OUR PEOBLEM. AND YOU HAVE NOTHING TO SAY INDEED. KURDS IN IRAN DO/DON'T UNREST, AND REALLY IT DOES NOT STICK ME A BIT. YOU LOVE OR HATE AZERIS IT DOES NOT STICK ME. Enough. ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 28-May-2005 at 16:45
YEAH YEAH, THEY'RE JEWISH
------------- |
Posted By: Hushyar
Date Posted: 29-May-2005 at 04:22
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Honestly, I don't know what it means but I just feel the same when a kurd speaks. And I didn't claim any knowledge on kurmanji or persian. I just said I know a bit kurdish as much as not to die among kurds. (well I knew more when I was a child but then forgot mostly. My fathers side is kurdish because. and they should be speaking it in their houses and occations with relatives) 1 my comments about words: those persian words of they speak are mostly which also intruded the Turkish lang. 2 and those percentages I gave are not absolute. 1)Both are taken from wikipedia, first Kurdish wikipedia, article scorpion and second Persian wikipedia article software engineering. I choose it completely casually and just I paid attention to not use articles which have geographical or historical names. 2) We dont have a thing as Irani language,We have Iranic group languages, actually Linguistics in 19th century named some languages that existed in Iranin Plateau or around it and had common ancestor as Iranic languages .Some of them are mutually interchangeable some of them are not and only a linguistic can tell you they are related. Persian and Kurdish are both considered as Iranic languages this does not mean that they are dialects of each other or dialect of a common language, It does mean they have common ancestor. Some of the Persian words that you have noticed in Kurdish are because they remain in both languages and didnt have changed and some of them are borrowing words because Persian was used as literary languages for centuries and many other languages also borrowed many words from Persian as Persian borrowed many words from other languages specially Arabic. 3) I just want to show you that you dont have sufficient knowledge about Kurds so when you claim a thing about Kurds (specially things about language or history) you must be objective and accept that your knowledge is not eternal and you must not be zealous about what you said. 4) Maybe many Kurds spoke mixed language as you said because there was not any Kurdish periodicals ,radios ,TV stations, and they didnt have this chance to educate Kurdish, this does not prove anything , If you knew Kurdish well and study the languaes of Kurds in Eastern provinces you will find another opinion.. 5) Kurdi is considered as a separate language and have its own syntax, grammar , phonetics and morphology which are specific to itself, by these standard Kurdish is considered as a separate language or separate language group.
Also, I don't know why you Iranians take this kurdish issue as a matter of "pride"??? A)Please dont Mix politics with History and linguistic. B) I didnt take any thing as mater of pride, there is nothing as a matter of pride when it comes in the front of facts. The problem is that your nationalistic feelings and political views make you say some things that you dont have sufficient knowledge about it. This irritates me because I consider history as science and science is neutral and only based on facts. C) Your country politics is not interesting for me and I dont mind about it. I have never been there and I have no relatives there and I dont think Ill ever go there (except by airplane when Ill pass from your country sky to Europe) so why I stop to mention facts because maybe some peoples dont like them.
I mean these kurds somehow got aware of that they were a nation(!) when the British kingdom wanted to use them against No you are wrong, refer to Sharafname Betlisi in 1596 who himself was kurd to know that kurds considered themselves as a separate nation even 400 years ago.
. If there were russians living there, it would be the "russian issue" because oil is there. in this goddamn political situation, anglo-american-zionists have wanted to keep the middleeast in chaos, so like every region in the middle east, they spreaded their seeds of anger and conflict in south-east Again politics Im sorry but there are three rooms for politics in this forum. And your literature is too like mullahs. I wonder do you have any sympathy with them? (British, Americans, Zionists, World Imperialism, those who sold themselves, puppets,) |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 29-May-2005 at 04:45
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First of all Hushyar, don't expect anyone who uses Atatrk's picture as avatar to have sympathy to Mollahs. I'm not zealous about anything and don't see my knowledge as eternal. But one of what makes a people a nation is a conciousness of common target from the past. 400 years??? So who read that book??? Did they uprise 400 years ago? You claim me approaching poltically, but I see political sneakiness in what you write. Where the Kurdish is in languages doesn't bother me indeed. But what I know in Turkey, they're fed more than me. ------------- |
Posted By: Ardashir
Date Posted: 29-May-2005 at 05:43
------------- http://khakokhoon.blogfa.com |
Posted By: Ardashir
Date Posted: 29-May-2005 at 05:51
|
For my countrymen-in Persian
.
: . . ( ) ϡ ʡ ʡ ǐ ʡ ( ) ʡ ( ) . Ӂ () . . Ԑ . ( ) . ( ) - . ( ) : () () ( ) ( ) () () ǁ () ( ) () () () (). . ( ) - ǎ ()- - . ǡ ( ʐ)- - () () . : ( ) . ( ) . (ǡ ) ( ) () . ( ) : () () ( ) ϡ э . ǐ ( ) . ƍ ( ) . . . ( ) . () ( ) . ȡ ( ǐ) . ǐ ( ) . ( ) ( ) . ӡ ( ) () . ( ) ( ) . ǐ ϐ . ( ) ( ) . . ǡ Ǎ ( ) ( ѐ ) () ( ) ( Ӑ) . ԁ ( ) . () . ǡ . ǁ . (ǡ ) ( ) . ( ϐ ) . . ( ) (ϐ) . ϡ - : . ( ǁ) ( ϐ ) ( ) . ǁ . ǁ ( ) ( ) ( ) . (ѡ ) . ( ) Ґ Ґ . ( ) ( ) ( ) ( ) . () . . () . ( ) () ( ) . () . ϡ ( ǁ ) . ǡ ( ) ϐ ǐ ( ) - ǐ ( ǐ) . ǐ ǁ ǡ ǐ () . э ϐ . () () ϡ ۶۱۳ ϡ ( ϡ ) . . ( ) (- ) . ϐ () . ( ) ( ) . ߁ ( ) ǐ ߁ . ( ) (ǐǡ ) () ( ) () () ( ϐ ) . ѐ ( ) ( ) ( ) . . ( ѐ ) . ( ) . ( ) . () . ( ) ϐ () () () ( ȡ ). ( = ) ʺ ѐ ѐ ( ̐ ) . . - . : ( ) . . . . -- () . ǐ () (ԡ ) ( ) . ( ) . () () () ǐ . ǐ () ҁ ( ) . () . () ȍ . () ( ) () . ( ) Ɛ () . ʁ ( ) ǎ . Ǎ () . ( ʁ ) . () Ȑ ( ) . ʁ ( ) . ( -) . ǐ (ѐѡ ) Ӑ (ѡ ) ( ) Ӂ ( ) . ( ) . (= ) () . () ǎ () . ѐ ( ) ԁ . ( ) ( с ) Resource:
http://www.nimrooz.com/html/834/research.htm#s152985 - http://www.nimrooz.com/html/834/research.htm#s152985
I have a question from Cyrus jan:
Do you confirm this essay? ------------- http://khakokhoon.blogfa.com |
Posted By: baracuda
Date Posted: 29-May-2005 at 06:32
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My farsi is terrible.. but some parts of the text you posted "Ardashir" are interesting..
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Posted By: Hushyar
Date Posted: 29-May-2005 at 07:24
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Some words and Litreature are the same,but aimes maybe different, anyway I just asked.
In that book he tries to show the origines of kurds. Ahamd e Khani (maybe the biggest kurdish poet 1600s) in Bayazid (you call it DoguBayezit if I am not wrong) in many parts of his works used the name of kurds as a nation. Mastoureye Kurdistani maybe the first kurdish female poet around 18th century said that Kurds are seperate from Arabs and must retain their cultures. Jaubert in 1807 in his manuscripts said that: Kurds consider themselves as a seperate nation from Turks and persians and think that they are descendants of mongols.(At that time IE thoery was existed only in brain of Jones) And that book was and is used as a reference in History of kurds.
1)who said that every nation who have found itself as a seperate nation must rise against its rulers? 2)Rise for what against who?Kurds had petit kingdoms in Butahn,Hakkari, Emadie, Suran, Badinan, Bitlis, Garmian,...and They were virtually independet and rule their own teritory as a king, They had their own army ,their own court,their own poets, ...They just obeyed Sultan and he was not king, He was caliphate, Heir of prophet, a spiritual leader that all muslim obeyed him. he never interfered in their works and just was carefull they don't invade eachother teritory.They even didn't pay tribute, they just should muster men and soldier and send them to eveywhere Sultan wanted and they did it with pleasure. When Mahmud II started to centeralize the empire,that time confrontation become inevitable.
I may be political in intellectual discussions room,but here No,by no means show me when I spoke about politics?(again another claim to be proved)
It is ridiculous to compare an official language with language of a minority which only recently has this right to have media in his own language or right of teaching,even if your country give any freedom they want (culturally ofcourse)and even help them, they will not be comparable even for another 50 years.Can you compare Turkish with English? Stop to campare uncomparables. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 30-May-2005 at 08:50
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prove: you say we don't let them live their culture. but we do let. in turkish televisions, there are too many programs(entertainment and series especially) evet to make forget the dominant Turkish culture. You know every national state has a dominant culture. I guess you are not against that. what you hear from AOL-Time-Warner of Reuters are provocative news. ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 30-May-2005 at 10:23
Thank you Ardashir. That was a highly enlightening post. And maybe you can teach us some Persian one day...------------- |
Posted By: BirTane
Date Posted: 30-May-2005 at 10:55
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I dont wanna get in the subject who has right or not about the Kurds, history says that Kurds are thousand years in this land, but also Turks are more than a thousand years in the same land....it is really complicate issue.... I only want to say that Kurds are not easy populations, they are a bit "wild" , saying wild I mean under the view of the Europeans. Likewise the life style of them can shock even the anatolian societies and deffinetely the Turks. Personally I got really suprised of their attitude towards/against life....Dont blame only the Turks...as we cannot blame the Turks only in the Greek-Turkish "problem". Kurds in Turkey get in the public organizations really easily....things are never in the way that they seems to be...always something is hided |
Posted By: Hushyar
Date Posted: 30-May-2005 at 13:39
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Yafes Ok up to know : a)you claimed that Kurdish was not language, I proved that it is. I think if you don't have another claim,We can finish this sweet discussion,unless you so love Kurds (maybe because you are partly kurd) that you want to keep this topic on top even when there is nothing more to be discussed.
|
Posted By: ramin
Date Posted: 30-May-2005 at 14:53
I, as for myself consider posts like yours "Spam".. because they'll bring pointless discussions regarding pointless issues. AND Quit posting articles in foreign languages (e.g. Persian, etc). ------------- "I won't laugh if a philosophy halves the moon"
|
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 30-May-2005 at 15:09
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first of all 1 what if I say culture? doesn't it include language? kurdish issue became a taboo with 1970s bcause of social conflicts, supported by countries like Iran, Syria, Greece, US... And reached the top in 1990s with PKK. 2 kurdish language was not recognised legally, true, but that does not mean it was forbidden. and you proved nothing a) language or dialect, I wrote about kurds in TURKEY b) the conciousness of a nation is sourced by with common movements. you wrote about little primitive administrations of kurds, but no significant state. They were always under administration of Iranians, Armenians, Arabs and Turks. They were derivation of iranians and mixed with iranis, armenians, arabs and turks. take the liquid theory: "fluids get the shape of the cab they are in." c) kurdish is uncomparable with one of the most mathematical and evolutioned language Turkish. I never do that and lastly, you wrote about loving kurds. why do i hate them? in addition, my father side is kurdish. but this does not make me a kurd. if i had the opportunity to search my genetic past, probably i'd find out armenian, iranian, indian, ... genes. so what???? MIMAR SINAN(famous turkish architecht) was iranian originated but who made him MIMAR SINAN? The Ottoman rule. Kurds in Turkey are not seperate from Turks in the history, too. At least we know "Krt Hasan"s died in Canakkale(gallipoli) side by side with the others. But traitors always existed since Adam. That's my last thread in this topic. And I advise you to visit Turkey. you'll be surprised about what you wrote about Turks, so far. good luck ------------- |
Posted By: Hushyar
Date Posted: 31-May-2005 at 01:33
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Yafes: Actually I proved every thing a)No you first spoke about language,this is your quote:
I proved that this approach is wrong , or maybe you have another reason for your claim.Kurdish is definitely cinsidered as a seperate language. b)
Ok but movements are not necessarily hostile ,Then I think there is a misunderastanding here because of the meaning of nation.I correct my sentence: Kurds considered themselves as a seperate people from their neighbors for centuries.
Except Armenians (only in Turkey's Kurdistan northern part ofcourse),I don't think other states have ever directly ruled there.They just gathered tribute or collected soldiers from there and actually it was impossible to have direct control there by flintlocks and old cannons.You want to compare Balkan or Syria with Kurdistan in Othman empire but this is wrong . They were seperate regions.In Blakan jannisaries were every where, But Kurds as saw any foreigners they thaught that he is a Turk and came from Sublime Port.
Nation is different from race.I don't think you can find any pure race, but nation is defined by culture. Kurds are basically remenants of the primitive inhabitants of the same area whcih Iranized when mixed with some Iranic tribes and later mixed with armenians arabs turks and many other anatolian peoples who are lost through centuries. But kurds as a seperate nation remained through all of these centuries. c)
Recently ofcourse,only recently,and No I'm not worry.I think I have just proved comparision is wrong and it seems that you are satisfied.
So nothing.Why do you became angry?I meant nothing.I said Love not hate,Why do you think what I said was double-edged ?I am a good boy. believe me. 
What have I said about Turks?????!!!!!!I have just spoken about Kurds,I just said one thing to Oguzoglu that why you turks become angry so easily?So what is this insult or misjudge?
Thank you for your invitation,I know your country is big and beautifull and motherland of big civilizations, but I feel more secure in my own country,you know you become angry easily and I am a bit coward,But I advise you to visit Iran,(Iranian are a bit more tolerant,I mean people not G-mens), and more importantly: 1)Turks were first in Iran then they migerated to Anatolia. 2)There are more variants of turkic languages(you call them dialects) in Iran than Turkey. 3)There were many turkic dynasties in Iran. 4)you won't have any problem in communication,because there are many in Iran who know Anatolian Turkish,may be I would be one of them in near future(my maths was always wondeful) and: you'll find in Iran many different people who consider themselves as a different nation but also consider themselves as a part of a bigger iranian naion,and don't find any contradiction between these two.
So what must I say? The End? |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 07-Jun-2005 at 17:28
|
Kurds are originally a persian tribe. Because of religieus conflicts with the other persians in the war between the Ottomans and the Turkmens of Safevid ismael in the 14th century ( sunni /shia) they setteld in south east anatolia where they mixed with arabs, asyrians, armenians and other local people. the language "kurdish"is a persian language with a lot of Turkish and arabian words. |
Posted By: ArmenianSurvival
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2005 at 03:32
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I read about a theory which stated that the Kurds are descendants of
the Urartians that didnt assimilate into Armenian culture. Even when
Urartu was a state, most of its inhabitants were infact Armenian. Some
Urartians mixed into Armenian culture while others didnt. The theory
states that some of the Urartians that didnt assimilate eventually
became the people we now call Kurds. I dont really read too much into
that theory, just throwing stuff out on the table for you guys.
------------- Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance Քիչ ենք բայց Հայ ենք։ |
Posted By: HulaguHan
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2005 at 04:22
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If you read the Alexander' s hostory from Arrianus, you will see that Kurds are not the Medens but the Karduks. A mountain people... |
Posted By: Murtaza
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2005 at 07:34
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So how bad, You two brother race are enemy of each other. |
Posted By: ArmenianSurvival
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2005 at 15:09
Presently we are not enemies with the Kurds. They have apologized for what they did to us during the genocide. ------------- Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance Քիչ ենք բայց Հայ ենք։ |
Posted By: Murtaza
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2005 at 15:11
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LOL You are friend with PKK not Kurds. Sorry man but If you enter anatolia(Not peacefully), I am sure Kurds will run faster than us for kicking you out.
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Posted By: ArmenianSurvival
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2005 at 15:15
lol, you have a point. So you're saying youd run also, just not as fast? lol ------------- Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance Քիչ ենք բայց Հայ ենք։ |
Posted By: Murtaza
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2005 at 15:17
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Well If you come with peacefully. Welcome. But if not, I hope you run faster than us.
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Posted By: ArmenianSurvival
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2005 at 15:21
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Do you mean me personally? i dont think i would be able to do much damage if i visited anatolia violently.
------------- Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance Քիչ ենք բայց Հայ ենք։ |
Posted By: Murtaza
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2005 at 15:23
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No Armenians, I dont think they can do much damage too. But I just want to show you how to enter Anatolia. |
Posted By: ArmenianSurvival
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2005 at 15:36
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I would enter Anatolia like i would enter anywhere else. We can do a lot of damage, we are just completely outnumbered and we dont have much cash .------------- Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance Քիչ ենք բայց Հայ ենք։ |
Posted By: Murtaza
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2005 at 15:40
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A realistic approach from an Armenian, Interesting. You should attack me. Shout me as Denier. And have to tell you are no better than your ancestors. Ah God! |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2005 at 17:10
I don't think so. kurds and armenians are always allied when it is about anti-Turkism and kurds genetically always collaborate with the enemy of the state in wich they live. it was in Turkey for 80 years ago. it's now in Iraq.
|
Posted By: Murtaza
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2005 at 17:15
| Not when Armenians were in anatolia. Infact It was the main reason for Kurds to enter our Independence war. But now, PKK and Armenians joined against to Turkey. People in east anatolia(Kurds) dont love much Armenians. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2005 at 17:37
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don' write idiot thinks my friend. In eastern Turkey live also many Turks. I have many friends in Holland form Kars, Erzurum and Van who are Turks. |
Posted By: Murtaza
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2005 at 17:45
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Be calm, I write kurds, because we are speaking about kurds. And They mostly live in eastern anatolia.I am wrong? Thanks for teaching me who live eastern anatolia. Realy fine knowledge (!) will you tell me where dada lives too?
|
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2005 at 18:28
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|
Posted By: Murtaza
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2005 at 18:36
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You made me mad! Harr! |
Yes! Turks live south-easth anatolia. Diyarbakr is the biggest city Kurds live. And pls dont say me kurd live in Istanbul too. Yes They live there too!Posted By: ArmenianSurvival
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2005 at 22:54
Can you explain what you mean ------------- Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance Քիչ ենք բայց Հայ ենք։ |
Posted By: Murtaza
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2005 at 03:34
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ArmenianSurvival Dont misunderstood but, In My past experiences, I cant talk with an armenian (Except Armenians live in Turkey) with sensible way.They mostly accuse and than swear. And sometimes want land, but they are not aware, the land they wish has much population for Armenia. And when I refuse genocide, They tell "you are not better than your ancestors" |
Posted By: ArmenianSurvival
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2005 at 06:36
|
I understand what you mean. Ive heard people say those types of things
before. I get mad at Armenians that simply talk trash when they dont
even know the history of what happened. Likewise, i get mad at Turks
who do the same. I get mad at anyone who is quick to judge and quick to
swear. Anyways, lets not drift too far off topic. ------------- Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance Քիչ ենք բայց Հայ ենք։ |
Posted By: Hushyar
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2005 at 07:18
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ArmenianSurvival and Tatar44 ArmenainSurvival you are only very little right and Tatar44 you are completely wrong.
and
wrong!!!! the correct answer is this: Persian and Kurdish are both considered as Iranic languages this does not mean that they are dialects of each other or dialect of a common language, It does mean they have common ancestor.Kurdish is considered as a separate language and have its own syntax, grammar , phonetics and morphology which are specific to itself, by these standard Kurdish is considered as a separate language or separate language group |
Posted By: ArmenianSurvival
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2005 at 07:28
|
Hushyar, i said that i did not believe the theory i presented. I only put it out to have another aspect to the discussion. The explanations you gave make a lot more sense to me, personally. ------------- Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance Քիչ ենք բայց Հայ ենք։ |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2005 at 10:39
|
Hushyar, you may be right, but the current Kurdish spoken in Turkey has not much difference with Persian, except its spelling which became closer to Turkish. It's no different than regular Persian except its vocabulary heavily influenced with Turkish and a little with Arabic. ------------- |
Posted By: Hushyar
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2005 at 00:39
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Your welcome |
Posted By: Hushyar
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2005 at 00:40
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I am definitly right.
1)If by curent Kurdish you mean kurmanji,I must say that persian and kurmanji are uninterchangable and if you have any doubt I can test you,which language are you familiar with Persian or Kurdish?
Believe me that your knowledge in Kurdish does not help you to underestand Persian.It just simplifies learning persian and vice versa. |
Posted By: Shahanshah
Date Posted: 11-Jul-2005 at 14:03
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Kurds are Iranian, their language is Indo-Iranian, they are aryan. Kurdistan is and shall be part of IRAN.
|
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 12-Jul-2005 at 06:29
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So northern Khorasan (southern Turkmenistan), southern Azerbaijan (in Iran) and the region around Shiraz is and shall be shared btw Turkey, Azerbaijan and Turkmenistan, or shall be part of the Western Turkish (Turkmen-Oguz) Union of those three states... ------------- |
Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 14-Jul-2005 at 12:02
|
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurds - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurds It's not any excellent article because political opinions seem to have affected its redaction, restricting much its scope, etc. Still it mentions, as I had heard before, that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenophon" title="Xenophon" style="font-style: italic; - Xenophon the ancient Greek historian recorded the Kurds in the Anabasis as "Khardukhi" a fierce and protective mountain dwelling peoples who attacked his armies in 400 BC. So guess that we can concede that Kurds have been there (quite silently) at least the last 2400 years. I can guess that could be well the Indo-Europeized descendants of some of the most ancient dwellers of the region but this is speculative. They could also be descendant of the Mitanni, a Hurrian (Caucasic speaking?) people whose elite spoke a IE language of the Indo-Iranian group. But guess that they could also had been linguistically assimilated by any of the different successive Iranian empires that ruled the region in Ancient times (Persian, Medes, Sassanids...). What is clear is that they aren't Turk or Arabs and any relationship with Iranian or Caucasic peoples is diffuminated by milennia of separation and also surely by the different substratum on which the IE tongues stabilished on. It's also clear that while Turks, for instance, only have a very small proportion of "true" Turk blood (genes), being basically descendants of the peoples that were dwelling in the region since early Neolithic times, the same reasoning can be applied for Kurds. These peoples haven't migrated but only their elites have. Peasants stay most of the time attached to the land and are almost impossible to be exterminated as can happen with nomadic tribes (the best examples of that are in Latin America, where agricultural natives still remain being the core of the population in places like Peru and Bolivia and others). |
Posted By: Ardashir
Date Posted: 15-Jul-2005 at 11:05
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 15-Jul-2005 at 11:43
|
Wow, I havent known that east-central Anatolia was Kurdish speaking. Interesting paint job... ------------- |
Posted By: Ardashir
Date Posted: 15-Jul-2005 at 12:26
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And now,you know! ------------- http://khakokhoon.blogfa.com |
Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 15-Jul-2005 at 16:08
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I am of the rather serious opinion that IE tongues come from Central
Asia (Kurgan theory). There are no references of IEs living in the Near
East in ancient times before the arrival of Hittites and Mittani. Sumer
was... Sumerian, Elam Dravidic, Akkad, Assyria and others Semitic
(Afroasian), Hurrians Caucasic most likely, Egypt Afroasian too
(Hamitic), Hatti non-IE (we don't know exactly what they spoke)...
where do you get those IEs suddenly springing from precisely Kurdistan?
At the spring of Neolithic Age the area was divided in two cultural groups: those of the Levant (Syria, Palestine, etc) and those of the North (Anatolia and Kurdistan). The former seem to have been locally evolved, the latter could well have migrated from the North and even the West in earlier times (Paleolithic Gravetian culture). As I have no reason to think that IE was out of Central Asia at that time (see below), I tend to think that these, along with other groups of Eastern Gravetian background spoke maybe ancient tongues of the Caucasic families (as the Caucasus was also of Gravetian cultural background, as well as Ukraine and Russia). This is maybe too risky but at least makes some sense. Recently several philologists seem to have concluded in separate but concordant studies (quoted by Cavalli-Sforza in Genes, Peoples and Tongues) that IE is clearly related in a linguistical superfamily with Altaic and Uralic families, well known to have sprang from Central Asia and Siberia. So I think this confirms pretty much the Kurgan theory of IE origins. Also, please, show me the slightest proof of that map being real and just not a fancy imaginary artwork. IEs are not located in the Near East before 2000 BCE (Hittites), while they seem to have been (following the Kurgan theory) in Eastern Europe since 3500 BCE. This is not concordant with your funny map either. Also, you can trace archaeologically the Jamnaja Kultura (original Kurgans) to the Scythes who were a IE speaking people, related with Persian and Medes (and probably directly with all the Eastern IE subfamily). They dwelt basically in Central Asia, expanding at times to southern Russia and Ukraine. Additionally, you can trace archaeologically a related group: the Culture of Catacombs (the Caucasian-Russian one, not the Italian one of the same name) to the Cymmerians, another IE-speaking people known historically. You can also trace a branch of the early Kurgan related expansion in Europe to early Germanic peoples (in Scandinavia and Lower Germany), another IE-speaking group well traced. So everything points to the Kurgan theory having at least some serious weight and that means that IEs are originally from Central Asia, what also explains quite well their double expansion towards Iran-India (eastern branch) and towards Europe (western branch). |
Posted By: Artaxiad
Date Posted: 16-Jul-2005 at 00:10
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The Kurds were much smaller during Antiquity. They lived in what is now called northern-most Iraq and the Hakkari province of Turkey. They weren't as spread-out as Ardashir claims. Most of what is called 'Northern Kurdistan' was Armenian land. |
Posted By: Ardashir
Date Posted: 16-Jul-2005 at 05:29
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The Kurgan theory is an outdated Theory my Turk.Now,it has been proven that the PIE people's homland was in Western Asia and exactly in your own country: the Turkey,and probably in Eastern Turkey. Read these links carefully: http://www.indoeuro.bizland.com/archive/article14.html - http://www.indoeuro.bizland.com/archive/article14.html In the above like,you will read: "As it is easily seen in the http://www.indoeuro.bizland.com/project/chron/chron.html - Indo-European Chronology , the first documents written in single Indo-European languages, appear around 1900 BC (Hittite), 1600 BC (Aryan), 1400 BC (Mycenaean Greek). " As you see,2 out of 3 of the first Indo-european written documents (Aryan and Hittite) have been written by those IE's who were living in Western Asia and not in Central Asia.Even the Greece is much closer to Westeran Asia than to Central Asia. Also we read that: " All that helped the research very much, but still the matter is under discussion. Still another discipline which studies the issue is the comparison of Indo-European and other language families. Linguists already in the previous century tried to find common roots in Indo-European and Semitic languages, and not just words of common origin, but the loanwords, to show that some contacts took place between Proto-IE and Proto-Semitic peoples. They were a success, and today more than 20 words are found which can be a proof of ancient close language contacts between ethnic groups before they moved from their homelands. Among them, linguistics name IE *tauro- and Semitic *tawr- (a bull), IE *ghaid- (a goat) and Semitic *gadj- (a goat cub) etc. The same borrowed lexics were borrowed by Indo-Europeans from other Afroasiatic, Caucasian, Urartian, Hurrian, Sumerian languages. Building on this, Gamkrelidze and Ivanov believe that the Indo-European homeland lay in Northern Mesopotamia, between the Caucasus and Anatolia, in what is now Kurdistan and Armenia. " http://l - l I ask you! where the Semitic peoples were and are living? in the Central Asia or in the Western Asia? http://www.indoeuro.bizland.com/archive/article17.html - http://www.indoeuro.bizland.com/archive/article17.html In the link above,you will find a map like this:
The map is showing the Aryan (=Indo-Iranian) homeland.Now, Where is the place number 2? Isn't it Kurdistan?! And now,my winner card,the well-known "nature" magazine,accept that the PIE's homaland was in Anatolia,which was the home of the Kurds for thousands of years: http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaPage.taf?file=/nature/journal/v426/n6965/abs/nature02029_fs.html&dynoptions=doi1069902039 - http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaPage.taf?file=/nature/jour nal/v426/n6965/abs/nature02029_fs.html&dynoptions=doi106 9902039 Next time,you must be more accurate and impolite either! later! ------------- http://khakokhoon.blogfa.com |
Posted By: Ardashir
Date Posted: 16-Jul-2005 at 05:53
Prove it! ------------- http://khakokhoon.blogfa.com |
Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 16-Jul-2005 at 07:00
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Ardashir: I'm not Turk, I'm Basque and I strongly support the Kurdish
cause. Still I can't agree with those theories placing IE roots in SW
Asia only because the first written texts come from that region. This is self evidently due to the fact that written language was still unexistent in any of the other regions
populated by IEs (or by other peoples, like Basques too). Written proof
is proof of the fact that there were IE-speaking peoples there at the
times you give and possibly before but it is not any proof of origin.
For instance, Latin was first written in Rome and nearby areas, still
Latins and other Italic peoples (IEs) had came from Southern Germany as
archaelogical evidence shows quite clearly; Germanic was first written
in France maybe but Germans came from Scandinavia and nearby regions,
etc. I say that the original IEs were most likely the carriers of the Jamnaja Kultura east of Volga (it seems that I am coincident with that Mr. Jain, whose name is the first time I read, by the way) and these can be perfectly traced from 3500 BCE to the Scythians of historical times. Here is my suggested scheme of IE chronological evolution traced through archaeology basically:  Naturally, I have some doubts and blanks (like the origin of Albanians, Greeks and Thracians, or how come Latin is so close to German while so diferent from Celtic? Or what's the precise origin or the Kurdish language?) but for the main part of the issue I think I did a pretty good synthetizing archaeological data. Hope you can make some use of it. |
Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 16-Jul-2005 at 07:33
Here there is a map showing the main steps of early IE expansion in
Europe and Asia Minor as far I know (from 3500 to 1500 BCE aprox.).
Notice that the Cholcidian culture (proto-Armenians) aren't derived
from the Jamnaja Kultura (Kurgans) but they seem to have got separated
earlier. This can also be the case of Hittites (thogh I admit I have
blanks in my knowledege of the archaeology of that area and philology
of the Hittite tongue). 
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Posted By: Ardashir
Date Posted: 16-Jul-2005 at 11:30
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Your theories are outdated. ------------- http://khakokhoon.blogfa.com |
Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 16-Jul-2005 at 13:57
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Why? I made it myself only a few years ago based in the most modern and accurate archaeological research I could find. I'm not expressing the opinions of others... nor any fashion... but my own personal coclusions. If you have discrepances why don't you write about them? I will surely find them interesting, specially if they are as sound and well researched as your disqualification seems to imply. Yet, bring your "ultimate" theories and the facts behind to the forum, please. |
Posted By: Ardashir
Date Posted: 16-Jul-2005 at 14:15
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My links are enough and more than enough for rejection of your outdated theories. But once again I ask you: What's your explanation for existance of several common words between Proto-Indo-European and Proto-Semitic languages?
------------- http://khakokhoon.blogfa.com |
Posted By: Artaxiad
Date Posted: 16-Jul-2005 at 19:13
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Prove it! The area I told you about used to be an Armenian province. It was called Kordchaik, which basically means Armenian Kurdistan. The same area was called Beth Qardu by Assyrians and Gordyene by Romans. All of this is surely the equivalent of Kurdistan. I got my information here. http://www.parthia.com/parthia_cities.htm - >> Kurds were relocated in the Armenian Highlands by Ottoman Sultans, so that the population of Christian Armenians and Muslims becomes balanced... |