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Kentuckian
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Topic: RE: the US has to invade Iran Posted: 16-May-2005 at 22:19 |
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"I have not yet begun to fight." - John Paul Jones
"America will win through absolute victory" - President Franklin Roosevelt
"This was our finest hour." - Winston Churchill
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Herodotus
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Posted: 17-May-2005 at 07:32 |
Originally posted by Thegeneral
I have already said I am stopping with the French jokes. Did you not read?
Of course countries will put their own intersts in front of what their allies want. But you must admit, we did come to the Frenchs' aid during WWII when we really had more to lose by helping them. But we did have our reasons to help.
America is on a fine path. It has not changed from the one that was set hundreds of years ago by our found fathers. the only differnce is that the publis, culture, and society has changed; for the worst, I must add.
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We did not have more to lose by fighting the Second World war in Europe. We only helped our ally when we were attcked at Pearl Harbor, and then only because it was in our interest: if the axis won in Europe, we would have had a circle of enemies all around us. America certainly gained alot, we became the superpower that we are today.
America is not on a fine path, internationally or domestically, certainly not the one intended by the founding fathers: that is another issue though, and I have to leave; deal with that later.
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"Dieu est un comdien jouant une assistance trop effraye de rire."
"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh."
-Francois Marie Arouet, Voltaire
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Guests
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Posted: 17-May-2005 at 07:50 |
Originally posted by Thegeneral
I had recently seen some anti-German statments and I had to let loose. |
you mean mine?
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ArmenianSurvival
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Posted: 17-May-2005 at 18:02 |
Originally posted by Thegeneral
America is on a fine path. It has not changed from
the one that was set hundreds of years ago by our found fathers.
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Yes, our forefathers who said all men are created equal, but owned
slaves, and only their social class was allowed to vote. You're right,
America has not really changed. You see inequality everywhere you go.
Its the peoples fault for not speaking up about problems with our
nation. Your house, your luxuries, and everything in society is only
there to blind you from whats really going on. If you see an
inequality, even if it doesnt affect you, how can you not speak up?
This is what we fail to do as citizens of this country. Other people
would kill to have the freedom to protest and speak out against the
government. We have this freedom and we choose not to exercise it
because we dont care what happens in the world, as long as it doesnt
affect us. Once the world is in chaos, and you are the one being
opressed, no one will be left to stand up for you, because you chose
not to stand up for them.
I hope people realize this before its too late.
And just to stay on topic, the U.S. doesnt need to invade Iran.
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Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance
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Thegeneral
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Posted: 17-May-2005 at 19:34 |
Exactly, the US is on the same path that the founding fathers et us upon. And exactly, wherever you go there is inequality; that includes Iraq, France, Britain, Russia, Germany, execter execter.
And we did not have more to loose than France and them. If Pearl Harbor had not happened we would not have interceeded because we had no big reason too. And it is funny how back then France and Britain loved when we entered a war and yet now adays, when we get attacked first, no one decides to help us. That's what we get, huh. That sure teaches us a lesson; just let Europe beat the crap out of eachother.
It probally was yours, Mixcoatl. Thanks for that, lol!
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ArmenianSurvival
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Posted: 17-May-2005 at 19:38 |
Originally posted by Thegeneral
And it is funny how back then France and Britain loved when we entered
a war and yet now adays, when we get attacked first, no one decides to
help us. |
After 9/11 the world came to help America to console them for the 6,000
lives lost. No one mourned the 100,000 Japanese civilians that the U.S.
illegally bombed. Or the millions that died during the slave trade. Or
the millions of native Americans killed. No one wants the U.S. to join
a war because it is an invitation to have mass murders. Just look at
our history.
Edited by ArmenianSurvival
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Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance
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Genghis
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Posted: 17-May-2005 at 20:05 |
Originally posted by ArmenianSurvival
No one mourned the 100,000 Japanese civilians that the U.S. illegally bombed. |
Haha, can you really believe that? We were at war, in a total war, you sound so absurd saying that.
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ArmenianSurvival
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Posted: 17-May-2005 at 20:35 |
Originally posted by Genghis
Haha, can you really believe that? We were at war, in a total war, you sound so absurd saying that. |
The Japanese bombed a naval harbor that was controlled by the U.S.
military. The U.S. bombed a city full of civilians. I do not sound
absurd, i am simply stating facts. What is absurd that the U.S. now
condemns terrorist activity because it "harms innocent civilians". We
purposely bombed not one, but two cities full of innocent civilians.
When its convenient for us we call it war, when someone does it to us
we call it terrorism. Call it what you want, it is what it is. Evil.
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Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance
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Kentuckian
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Posted: 17-May-2005 at 20:52 |
War is one thing, terrorism is quite another Armenian Survival. When the Japanese started the war they exposed themselves to the dangers of war...there're lucky they got off so easy after what they did to China and Southeast Asia. No, I'm not saying that the US should have done worse, i'm saying "do onto others as you would have them do onto you." and no i'm not religious.
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"I have not yet begun to fight." - John Paul Jones
"America will win through absolute victory" - President Franklin Roosevelt
"This was our finest hour." - Winston Churchill
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Thegeneral
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Posted: 17-May-2005 at 21:05 |
Those so called "innocent Japanese" were not so innocent. Had we had to go ashore on the hoem islands millions more for each side would have died. And had we come ashore every single Jap would have fought to the death because their emperor told them so. That is not innocent.
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ArmenianSurvival
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Posted: 18-May-2005 at 01:32 |
Originally posted by Kentuckian
No, I'm not saying that the US should have done worse, i'm saying "do
onto others as you would have them do onto you." and no i'm not
religious. |
I know. Im not supporting the Japanese involvement in the war. But im
saying the way they conducted the war was much more professional than
what we did. They attacked a military target. We attacked a city full
of regular people.
Originally posted by Thegeneral
Those so called "innocent Japanese" were not so innocent. Had we had
to go ashore on the hoem islands millions more for each side would have
died. And had we come ashore every single Jap would have fought to the death because their emperor told them so. That is not innocent. |
This logic justifies what the terrorists did at 9/11. They can simply
say "we are at war with America, and we killed potential soldiers as
well as a major economic structure to weaken their funding." You cant
disagree with that statement and still support the U.S. bombing of
Japan, that would be hypocrisy. If you agree with it, then thats your
opinion. Just dont have a double-standard, one standard will be just
fine.
Edited by ArmenianSurvival
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Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance
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Exarchus
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Joined: 18-Jan-2005
Location: France
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Posted: 18-May-2005 at 04:54 |
TheGeneral, if you talk about ineguality in France compared to the USA.
You're taking an unwinable debate. France is a country where the
differences (albeit still strong) between social classes are the less
important. There is only one region really above the other in term of
wealth and it's Ile de France. And there is only one region behind the
others in term of wealth and its Corsica.
Beside this, when the USA were attacked by Al Qaeda, the French troops
went in Afghanistan, it was even the first mission of the Rafale.
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Vae victis!
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cattus
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Posted: 18-May-2005 at 06:43 |
Originally posted by ArmenianSurvival
We have this freedom and we choose not to exercise it because we dont care what happens in the world, as long as it doesnt
affect us. Once the world is in chaos, and you are the one being opressed, no one will be left to stand up for you, because you chose not to stand up for them.
I hope people realize this before its too late.
And just to stay on topic, the U.S. doesnt need to invade Iran.
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I find a strange contradiction in that.
ArmenianSurvival,If you have issues with an attack on Iran, how about using contemporary points instead of trying to demonize the US with what took place in a different time and world.
The initial Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor was an objective in a strategy to use the most within their
means to cripple part of the American Navy. There simply was not extra planes with bombs in the Japanese arsenal to try and demoralise people. If Japan were capable, they would have attacked civilian populations throughout the war after Midway. Nanking or Pingfan where Unit 731 was, were not military outposts. What was the target for all of those balloons unleased on the continental US? Hardly a professional war that Japan ran as you said.
It was "Total War" and I find it scary to imagine what an Axis country would have done with the power of the United States at the time.
You're not the first to use todays standards and judge the bombing in WWII as terrorism and that is fine,almost agree but I dont because I see the full picture.
I dont know what you were trying to say in your last paragraph taking al-Qaeda's perspective. If you cant
distinguish between 1941 and 2001, you are either short-sighted, intellectually dishonest or you just sympathise or side with them.
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Guests
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Posted: 18-May-2005 at 07:19 |
Originally posted by Genghis
Originally posted by ArmenianSurvival
No one mourned the 100,000 Japanese civilians that the U.S. illegally bombed. |
Haha, can you really believe that? We were at war, in a total war, you sound so absurd saying that. |
But you can justify every atrocity by saying that.,
Rape of Nanking? Oradour sur Glaine? Bataan Death March? Warsaw Ghetto
uprising? the Holocaust? Nothing wrong with all of that, these things
happen in a total war.
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Thegeneral
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Posted: 18-May-2005 at 07:26 |
Yes but what we did by dropping the bomb was an act of war. What those that were listed are are acts of terror and not an act of war. And show do you propose we should have ended the war with Japan?
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ArmenianSurvival
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Posted: 18-May-2005 at 07:32 |
Catt, i understand your point. Maybe i made it seem like i was bashing
the U.S., but that was not the case, but thats my fault for not
clarifying. All i was trying to say is that the U.S. bombing not just
one, but two cities full of innocent civilians was just too excessive
for me. If the U.S. had so much power like you said, they could have
completely destroyed military targets in Japan. We could have nuked an
army base instead, and done a lot more damage to the actual people that
were fighting us.
I simply made the comparison between 1941 U.S. and todays terrorists
because they both bomb civilians for a greater purpose, and that is
victory. Whether thats good or bad is up to you, but that is what it is.
Bombing innocent civilians is terrorism no matter what time period you
live in, it all depends on the context, such as who is doing it and
why, and
that decides whether it is accepted or not. Whether you choose to
believe it was necessary or not is up to you. The U.S. found it
necessary during WWII, and it seems to have worked out for us. The
terrorists of today believe that it is necessary for them to resort to
those tactics. I dont agree with terrorism, just like i dont agree with
the nuking of Japan, but they are both necessary depending on which
point of view you look at it from. Obviously, terrorism is not
necessary to us as Americans, because it is an evil act being committed
in our country (and others). But, from their point of view, its very
necessary. Terrorism is not a pointless act, just because we dont agree
with it doesnt mean theres no purpose behind it. Theres a big
difference between supporting terrorism and realizing why it happens.
And the time period matters in many aspects, with that i agree with
you. But, if youre looking at the aspect of human psychology and
behavior, it has been the same since the beginning of time. The only
difference is the technology and the means it is carried out.
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Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance
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ArmenianSurvival
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Posted: 18-May-2005 at 07:43 |
Originally posted by Thegeneral
Yes but what we did by dropping the bomb was an act of war. What those
that were listed are are acts of terror and not an act of war. |
By that logic, we are at war with terrorists. So if they bomb us, it is
not an act of terrorism, but of war. The word 'terrorism' is
modern-english for "we're at war with rebels".
But dont let simple words such as 'terrorism' and 'war' change the
actuality of the events. Whatever happens, happens. You can call it
what you want, it doesnt change what happened. Ya we bombed Japan
during a war. But you mean to tell me we didnt know that we dropped 2
bombs on tens of thousands of innocent people? The times might have
been different, but we had basic judgement, considering we were not
cavemen in 1941.
Edited by ArmenianSurvival
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Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works!
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hugoestr
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Posted: 18-May-2005 at 11:06 |
Bombing innocent civilians is terrorism no matter what time period you live in, it all depends on the context, such as who is doing it and why, and that decides whether it is accepted or not. |
Hurting civilians is distasteful and ethically wrong in principal, but it is not terrorism. Terrorists' aim in hurting civilians is to have a front page story. The atomic bombing had strategic and logistical goals.
The two bombs saved more lives in the long run. The U.S. was planning on fighting Japan for two more years, and predicted that the cost in American and Japanese lives were going to be much higher, judging by the fierce fighting in Okinawa and Iwo Jima. Japan was feared by their suicidal sacrifice on defending itself. After all, they didnt surrender after the first atomic bomb was dropped. Let us not forget this detail.
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Illuminati
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Posted: 20-May-2005 at 20:53 |
^^^I definitely agree with hugoestr that droppin the atomic bombs was
the right move. Many more thousands would ahve died if the Allies had
to invade the Japanese home islands. Plus amny moe civilians would have
died also. When the marines invaded Saipan, they got a taste of what it
would be look to invade the home islands.
anyways about Iran.....
I want Iran to be free and for them to live without oppression, but not
at the cost of American lives (i feel the same way about iraq). If an
invasion is necessary to free them, then some other country can do the
fighting.
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Kentuckian
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Posted: 20-May-2005 at 21:43 |
Originally posted by hugoestr
Bombing innocent civilians is terrorism no matter what time period you live in, it all depends on the context, such as who is doing it and why, and that decides whether it is accepted or not. | Hurting civilians is distasteful and ethically wrong in principal, but it is not terrorism. Terrorists' aim in hurting civilians is to have a front page story. The atomic bombing had strategic and logistical goals.
The two bombs saved more lives in the long run. The U.S. was planning on fighting Japan for two more years, and predicted that the cost in American and Japanese lives were going to be much higher, judging by the fierce fighting in Okinawa and Iwo Jima. Japan was feared by their suicidal sacrifice on defending itself. After all, they didnt surrender after the first atomic bomb was dropped. Let us not forget this detail.
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quite right, hugoestr, my grandfather was going to be in the second wave of the assault on Japan....the leaders of the army told them to kill anything that moved...anything that moved...man, dog, woman
this was necessary because of the Japanese mentality to fight to end and never give up, a suppression there such as the one in Iraq never would have worked.
now, i ask the bombs or the invasion?
the results would have greatly varied....draw your own conclusions
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"I have not yet begun to fight." - John Paul Jones
"America will win through absolute victory" - President Franklin Roosevelt
"This was our finest hour." - Winston Churchill
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