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  Quote JuMong Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: North Korea Discussion
    Posted: 21-Mar-2013 at 14:39


The North Korean Crisis has been in the news lately. 


Not that anyone cares, but I'm hoping to find some sort of solution to this problem. Main issue that I hope to deal with has to do with America's failed policy regarding the North. America's show of force is not helping anyone. I'm afraid we have little choice but to use diplomacy regarding North. There is no other option. America cannot afford to get embroiled in another War.







Edited by JuMong - 21-Mar-2013 at 18:37
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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2013 at 15:12
We already are involved in that "war".  The NK gov. canceled the Truce.  That means hostilities could resume at any time.  Diplomacy?  You cannot reason with an unreasonable person.
 
Considering our son would be in the thick of it, CV's son also, I sincerely hope it would be solved by cooler heads than those in pyong yang.
 
 
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
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  Quote JuMong Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2013 at 17:23

We are not dealing with a rational government as they are becoming increasingly paranoid. America's provocation is only creating more problems. As I've said,  there is nothing wrong with diplomacy. Even if it takes 100 years, we need  to talk ourselves out of this. There is no other option. 

-------
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pvj4uDYH3RA


Edited by JuMong - 21-Mar-2013 at 18:36
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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2013 at 18:48
The only provocation, as usual, lies at the door of the DRPK. The only saber rattling and ongoing nuc tech and proliferation lies there as well. The ongoing threats and no doubt further military aggression, covert and overt attacks on resources and disputed islands will also be from the same.
 
The question is not whether the US and the ROK continue military exercises that they have been conducting for decades as a deterent. It will be the third generational response of the wackos in the North.
 
The key is not an overreaction on allied nations parts.......it will, as usual, be dependent on the PRC.
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2013 at 20:39
There's a simple solution: kick North Korea out of the UN and cut off all aid. If Kim retaliates, launch missile strikes on his main military bases, power stations and any other places believed to store nuclear missiles
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  Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2013 at 21:05
First, on diplomacy: Diplomacy only works when both sides have something to give and something to lose. There is a track record of U.S. and ROK efforts to deal with North Korea diplomatically, particularly in regards to obtaining from them a promise to cease developing atomic weapons, and the only winners so far has been the North Korean regime.

Second, the previous South Korean governments tried ten years of appeasement. It's results are what we are seeing now.

If it were up to me, I would withdraw all U.S. forces from Korea, but keep the treaty between ourselves and the ROK. We only went to Korea to keep the ROK out of the "Communist Bloc" in the Cold War, when the ROK was a very new and untried state, its Army likewise new, untrained, under-equipped, and inexperienced, and our principal adversary was the Soviet Union. The USSR no longer exists as such, the Sino-Soviet bloc is a term now consigned to ancient history, the Republic of Korea is standing on its own two feet and has a modern, well trained, and experienced military quite capable of defending itself. The ROK military no longer needs a U.S. ground presence, but out Air Force and Navy would be a valuable addition to them in any war with the North. Finally, our minuscule presence in Korea costs us a fair amount of money. Withdrawing our remaining troops would lift that burden from our own shoulders, and place then upon that of the RFOK taxpayer, which is where it rightfully belongs in this day and age. 

Fortunately for the ROK taxpayers, no one has elected me God for a day.
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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2013 at 22:34
All apt..... tho I disagree with the withdraw of the presence...simply because as my fellow vet knows, 'presence' is a application of necessary force 'projection' inherent to what follows below.
 
 
 
 
 
Knowing well MG HR McMaster's; I am a proponent of his general philosophies. And was, when he was first being commissioned back in 84. When I was already a Captain. His and mine were an accumulation of our predecessors knowledge of 'lessons learned' and the applicability of their use in future force commitment. I learned mine under J. Brandenburg, C Vouno, D. Starry, C. Abrams, R. Wagner. T. Tait, F. Brown, G. Sullivan, T. Franks and M. Thurman to name a couple. And their immediate juniors and subordinates. He learned his from the men who were Captains and Majors and Colonels who served under the former.
 
 
 
 
What makes him special today is he continues to promote their applicability. And so at the expense of sounding repitious...when dealing with the DPRK and or any potential threat...four general considerations are paramount.
 
 
 
 
a. War is an extension of national politics and international relations...preparation for it is synonymous. Nothing new. Clausewitz voiced it first long ago.
 
 
 
 
 
b.  War and the preparation for it and the execution of it; is a dynamically human affair. It involves virtually every aspect of the 'modern condition', as it once did the ancient... ie. economics, governmental types, theological influences and cultural and social adaptations and development. Nothing new. Caesar knew this 2000 years ago.
 
 
 
 
c. War is always uncertain. No matter the prep-planning and numerical, physical, psych, factors. And other corollary factors involved ie. equipment, technology and, or RDA. Nothing new.
 
 
 
 
 
d. War, and it's by products, economic repercussions, costs and consequences, social disruptions, loss of life, etc...is a contest of wills....which is to say an anathema to the appeaser and the dominance one seeks over his opponents. Obvious...since the days of cavemen. But unless one is willing to accept the cost or react to a direct threat vital to national survival.... force must be tempered with as much reason and not emotion as possible. Ntl. the question is often asked: when has that line been crossed? Never, ever is the answer the same.
 
 
 
 
 
So when one pursues an investigation of the 'whys and why nots' of whether to apply force to counter a perceived or actual threat....especially rogue nations like the DPRK or Iran; one if smart, examines that above. Because by their very nature, democracies are not actually willing to conduct 'total war' as it's been most recently defined often. And the question then remains....if not...then be prepared to deal with the later and potential geopolitical repercussions... and counter reactions and opposition. Especially when one attempts it versus a foe that nationalistically, politically, and or theologically inclined or not,  is prepared to resist.
 
 
 
 
In the end, each conflict is different. Great or small. And to a greater or lesser degree the mechanisms of being able to counter each threat, is narcissistic at worst or falsely optimistic; if the political and military leadership does not treat them as such...ntl remembering to apply lessons learned.
 
 
 
 
But equally important to  develop, train, maintain and equip a force for as many contingencies as possible..... and to inculcate in the civil leadership the same motivations and attitudes. And that friends and neighbors is never easy.
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

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  Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2013 at 23:22
Ah yes. All good general rules. But I like to think of Korea in Bismarckian terms: Given that the ROK has the conventional capability to win a war with North Korea (though USAF support would be valuable icing on the cake), what in Korea is worth the life of a single Pomeranian Grenadier? (Or, a single USMC Lance Corporal.)




Edited by lirelou - 22-Mar-2013 at 23:25
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  Quote JuMong Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Mar-2013 at 07:58
SKYFALL : 2013


I thought I saw a spammer named "skyfall" recently on this board? Can anyone track that address?

I'm seriously beginning to question the recent barrage of Meteor showers??? It seems like these guys are playing a serious game of chicken.  Who are they? US & SK vs Russia and China, NK and Iran ? 

It may have begun with the Russians in 2011? I'm trying to find the article about the Russians test firing a missile while Obama was in Europe in 2011? It might have been an earlier date with Bush? US always answers these provocations. Where was that meteor over Russia headed? A zinc factory? 

I really don't care who started this, but this is beginning to tread on a dangerous territory. We need to cool it. I just hope, I'm imagining all this...


Russian event 2-15-2013


http://www.infowars.com/russia-shot-down-the-meteor-theory-spreads-online/

(Alex Jones is not as crazy as you think.)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=r-FBZom8_HE#!


Missile tests:

http://www.infopig.com/keywords/Missile-Launch.html





Edited by JuMong - 23-Mar-2013 at 08:39
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  Quote JuMong Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Mar-2013 at 08:45
RE lirelou:


I agree with you, America needs to get out of SK, but it's not just SK.  U.S. is nearly bankrupt and can no longer afford to able the policeman of the world.  It needs to face that reality. At the same time, the so called American allies must also spend more money defending their own countries.

We maybe a lot closer to reaching the second Dark Age after the fall of the USA; but, I just don't think most countries are ready for that. 


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  Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Mar-2013 at 10:01
JuMong, the only strategic advantage that South Korea obtains from our continued presence is that a conflict would tie us into the post-war clean-up. They would lean on us heavily in the rebuilding of North Korea.  I am convinced, and I believe that the massive anti-American demonstrations in the wake of the 2002 Yangju Highway incident bears me out, that upon 1) the collapse of North Korea, or 2), our assistance in rebuilding it in the wake of a re-opening of the war, the South Koreans would simply declare a date upon which we would have to evacuate the  peninsula that would have no relation to any UNC/USFK plans.

We would sit in our bases and whimper that the Koreans were ungrateful, and snivel about how badly our land bases are needed on the Asian mainland to keep the peace. We would keep letting out contracts and forge ahead with base upgrades and construction, all the time hoping that the Koreans would change their minds. Then we would be angry when they don't.

The Koreans meanwhile would be very gracious, giving out military medals and unit awards for past services, and then announce that former USFK members, to include civilians, would be eligible for discounted airline fares on Korean airlines, as part of a 'Re-visit Korea" campaign. MKeanwhile, down in the dirty tricks department of the far Left and Right of ROK politics, idealists would be churning out U.S. Base "comfort women" articles, alleging that the U.S. owes billions to the former B girls for the degradations they suffered, with the alleged collusion of the USFK command, at the hands of U.S. troops, and enlisting the anti-military and ultra-feminist wings of the American Left in their cause. 




Edited by lirelou - 23-Mar-2013 at 10:04
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  Quote JuMong Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Mar-2013 at 15:27
RE lirelou:


We are at a very serious crossroads here in terms of where the world is headed. The world is shifting very quickly and America is no longer the Superpower that it thinks it is. It is 16 trillion dollars in debt, and basically a third world with a large army that it can no longer afford to maintain. It is not surprising that there are Russian scholars that's equating what's happening in US right now with the former Soviet Union. Can it hold itself together and not Balkanize like the former Soviet Union?


------


There is a strong anti-American sentiment everywhere, this is not just South Korea. How many real friends do the US have in the world right now? Who can they really count on? And why should they? There is also a strong sense that America has lost all credibility with the Two Wars that it has fought in the Middle East. No one trusts America anymore to do the right thing.


The real problem in America is the failed educational system. The political class is not any smarter than the rest of the ill-educated Americans. Just look at the lack of quality that America is producing right now;  George Bush followed by Barrack Obama?? It's not surprising that America is failing with these unqualified leadership.


------


US / Korea Relations:

The relationship that was forged between US and Korea goes way back before the Korean War. I'm not too sure if even most American policymakers these days understand just what it took to forge these relations to begin with. I want to go back to reiterate this point: 


1884 ~ present:

https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intelligence/csi-publications/csi-studies/studies/vol49no1/html_files/first_attache_5.html


America's long term objective in forging these alliances took time. I'm sure it will take time to work out the difference between North Korea and the US. Current US politicians simply do not understand their own history.


------



The sky is falling (but why?):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jo-NMIJ_7mI

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  Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2013 at 19:39
JuMon, in re your:  "How many real friends do the US have in the world right now? Who can they really count on? And why should they?"

First of all, no nation has any 'real friends'. Nations have interests. Legally, they may have allies, but those parties will be allies only so long as they deem it in their interest to be so. To do otherwise would be foolish.

The problem with a democracy as large as the United States lies in defining our national interests. The myriad bodies which compose the American electorate have differing ideas as to what is in the national interest. Thus what is in our interest is often a matter of political compromise, and the problem there is that public perception as to what is in our interest can shift very quickly in response to events. Three Examples which occurred relatively quickly in the wake of Sec State Dean Acheson's January 1950 speech to the Washington Press, in which he omitted Korea as an area with the U.S. defensive perimeter.

The first and most obvious was the U.S. decision to send troops to Korea in the wake of the 25 June 1950 North Korean invasion. 

The second was the U.S. decision to start providing military aid to the French Union Forces fighting in Indochina. This second was in response to a French loss of 8 elite battalions to Giap's regular troops, newly introduced from China. In the relative blink of two eyes, the U.S. decided to defend Korea and support French operations by providing arms and equipment for the newly created Vietnamese, Cambodian, and Laotian national armies.

The third, and most shocking to our WWII European allies, was the U.S. decision to oppose the British-French Suez expedition against Nassar's Egypt.

Again, nations have interests, not friends in the sense that ordinary citizens have friends. As for who we can count on? As long as we can count on ourselves, we will do well.


Edited by lirelou - 24-Mar-2013 at 19:41
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  Quote JuMong Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Mar-2013 at 04:15
lirelou,


You're really bringing back a lot of bad memories with this "national interest" stuff ? I hope you're not who I think you are? I remember the Neo-Cons saying this exact same thing to justify the 2nd generation Gulf Wars... I don't want to go back there, ever again. I think it might behooves US to do the right thing because that would be a "moral" thing to do. In the the long run, that would better serve US National Interests.

I'm still trying to figure out just what kind of legacy America will leave behind? It is hard to tell at this point...


http://empoweredquotes.com/2008/10/13/insanity-albert-einstein-2/


------


American Democracy?


Is there such thing as Democracy in US? I'm beginning to suspect that this is all an illusion.


------


Korean War and beyond


I could go on endlessly about the Korea War and what led to it; but, as a great coach once said, " Those that live in the past are cowards and losers." I'm learning to let go...

We should try to learn from our past,  not bask in lost glory.


http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100318125705AAhClGh


-----


Peak Oil


As we are way past Peak Oil....Will we have anything left to fight for?

http://peakoil.com/


------

http://www.dramabeans.com/2013/03/that-winter-the-wind-blows-episode-13/#comments


Edited by JuMong - 25-Mar-2013 at 04:33
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  Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Mar-2013 at 16:24
JuMoong. Remember this from my post?  " The myriad bodies which compose the American electorate have differing ideas as to what is in the national interest. Thus what is in our interest is often a matter of political compromise, and the problem there is that public perception as to what is in our interest can shift very quickly in response to events."

Perhaps the problem with the Neocons is that the true believers among them were too blind to understand that they would not get a national consensus, and the more cynical among them presumed that they could lead the skeptics down the primrose path, and in the end everything would work out.

I'll close this by saying that I see Korea much like I see Israel. My wife and I love Korea and have great admiration for the Koreans. That was not the case with my wife prior to our seven years there. And I can understand why American Evangelicals feel a close tie to Israel. But while their interests may at times coincide with ours, they are not identical. The Koreans and Israelis will undercut and stab us in the back the second they perceive it is in their interest to do so. And most of us happily (OK, not always happily) do the same to them when duty requires it. The adults among realize that that's the way it has to be. When my Korean counterpart was lying to me, or trying to find out some information he wasn't supposed to know, he (0r she) was doing their duty to their country, and to its duly constituted leadership. 

I believe that the days of Korea being in our defensive perimeter are long over, and we should terminate our presence there as no longer being in our interest. 


Edited by lirelou - 25-Mar-2013 at 16:38
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  Quote JuMong Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Mar-2013 at 20:00
I remember what Americans did to the French after the Revolutionary War was over. You're only projecting your own past; but, as I said, world is changing very quickly. Korea must do what it must to survive. This world is not a kind place. 

America has over 600 military bases around the world, it is a country that is stuck in a Cold War mindset. Without a real enemy, it seems to be lost. America must reaccess it's foreign policy and learn to tread carefully in this dangerous world. There is no room for error, any misunderstanding can be fatal.

I will wish you Good Luck, Lou; but what I have seen of your country does not inspire me.


------



And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

                                                                                             ~ Isaiah 2:4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIU7Gsbkghg


Edited by JuMong - 26-Mar-2013 at 04:10
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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Mar-2013 at 16:25

''N. Koreans Rally for Military Strike Against US''

Further Provocation. Solution? Flatten the place first.

http://www.voanews.com/content/north-koreans-rally-to-support-threat-of-military-strike/1630983.html







Edited by Centrix Vigilis - 29-Mar-2013 at 16:29
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'

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  Quote Mountain Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Mar-2013 at 19:37
I don't expect anything to come of Lil' Kimmie's latest threats.  More than likely, he is in a bind and needs a strawdog to focus his subjects' attention on other than himself.

As for taking action, that's South Korea's problem.  In case no ne here has noticed, the SK's still maintain trade with the North.

Not our problem.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
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  Quote JuMong Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Mar-2013 at 03:52
My suggestion to you sir is to leave the world alone. America has become more of a problem than the solution. You have shown nothing but contempt for other people's culture.


http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/03/29/17520371-member-of-seal-team-6-killed-another-seal-injured-in-parachute-accident#comments

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yswMOB8_IAM

www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPCchZ10VX0


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http://bible.cc/ecclesiastes/9-11.htm

Edited by JuMong - 30-Mar-2013 at 07:47
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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Mar-2013 at 08:01
Originally posted by Mountain Man

I don't expect anything to come of Lil' Kimmie's latest threats.  More than likely, he is in a bind and needs a strawdog to focus his subjects' attention on other than himself.As for taking action, that's South Korea's problem.  In case no ne here has noticed, the SK's still maintain trade with the North.Not our problem.




Yup and we trade with the PRC and the current version of the Sovs.
Bl...the DPRK is a rogue nation intent on deliberate, independent and causal-joint, violent actions, directed towards it's neighbors..... and hence then does indeed remain a problem for US vested strategic interests.


Response? As noted. Knock em flat and let the PRC rebuild their lackies into a more docile form.

"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'

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