The "wicked and evil " Turks-1453

Dacian...that can refer to Transsylvania indeed, so he most likely was a German settler in Hungary.

Originally posted by Komnenos [QUOTE=Yiannis]  Not that I want to claim this fellow, but could somebody shed more light on this?

In a fascinating book about the evolution of gunpowder weapons in the late Middle Ages, A History of Greek Fire and Gunpowder, J.R. Partington states the following using Chalkokondyles (a late Byzantine historian) as a source.

"Chalkokondyles says the maker of the gun was a Dacian deserter from the Greeks named Urban ('Orbanos Dax')." (125).

Mark Bartusis specifically labels Urban a Hungarian, as does Runciman, Nicol, and David Nicholle, without exception.  As for Partington calling Urban a 'deserter', I would say he was more of a mercenary for hire, just like many of the other soldiers involved in the Fall of 1453.  The historians I mention all relate the story of how Urban first offered his services to Constantine XI, a Christian ruler, who had to refuse because of a shortage of funds.  Urban in turn went to Mehmed II who was able to hire him.  This also demonstrates the Ottomans' ability to recognize talent and adapt it towards their own uses (and I am NOT saying the Ottomans did not come up with anything original, don't get me wrong! ).

Edit: Had to transliterate the Greek characters!

Edited by Byzantine Emperor

Originally posted by Yiannis I believe he was Hungarian named Hurbanus (sp?). He first offered his services to the Byzantine emperor but when he didn't get the money he was asking, he moved to the Sultan's camp. He's the one who minted the great cannons that destroyed Constantinople's walls.

There's seems to be confusion what nationality the engineer Urban was.
While both Nicol and Runciman state that he was Hungarian, J.J. Norwich mentions that he was German.
Edward Gibbon thinks he even might have been Danish:
"A founder of cannon, a Dane or Hungarian, who had been almost starved in the Greek service, deserted to the Moslems, and was liberally entertained by the Turkish sultan."( Chapter LXVIII,Part II )
He could have been both , of course, a Hungarian of German origin, as some regions in the Hungarian Kingdom, especially the area around Herrmannstadt, today Sibiu in Rumania, had been settled by German immigrants, called into the country by King Geza II in the 13th century.
Not that I want to claim this fellow, but could somebody shed more light on this?



Edited by Komnenos

Originally posted by Constantine XI I read of a Scotsman who apparently was on the Byzantine side. Grant was his name and traditionally he was considered a German though more recent scholarship (D. Nicol) claims it was more likely he was a Scot. From my memory of Nicol's book which last read 5 years ago he did a great service to the Christian side by helping foil the Ottoman attempts at mining the walls. Dunno if thats your bloke but hope this helps.

Runciman in his Fall of Constantinople 1453 cites Sphrantzes' chronicle as well as Leonard of Chios' letters in saying that Johannes Grant was perhaps a Scotsman who came through Germany and came to the city in the company of Giovanni Giustiniani, the Genoese nobleman who helped in the defense.  Mark Bartusis in his Late Byzantine Army book also cites Sphrantzes and says Grant was a German.  Donald Nicol in his Last Centuries of Byzantium is slightly less prepared to determine Grant's nationality and says he could be a Scotsman or a German.  Where he is mentioned, though, his contribution to the defense of Constantinople is immense.  Grant and the Grand Duke Loukas Notaras detected the Serbian miners of the Turks as they dug under the Blachernae Wall near the Caligarian Gate.  A fierce battle ensued in the tunnels under the wall and Grant's men flushed the miners out.

Hmm, coming to think of it, i think it was mining and not cannons. So i guess he was on the Byzy-Roman side then.
My bad.

Hmm, don't know, but Urban designed and built a special siege cannon, called the Basilic (sp?) IIRC, the cannon eventualy broke towards the end of the siege, wether it was a misfire that also killed him i don't know.
But the Turks did have other cannons too, and other people to fire them and oversee their use, and there was Scotsman in there somewhere i'm, pretty sure

A typical Venetian, this Nicolo Barbaro(sic!), not concerned about the city and people of Constantinople, who were the main target of the Turks, but about the couple of Venetian merchant vessels who got up in the siege. More worried about the loss of profit than the fate of the city. Venice was more responsible for the demise of the Byzantine Empire than any other nation, if you want to call a gang of cut throat hawkers a "nation".

So what if the Venetians and others (esp. the Normans) plundered Constantinople. They were certainly not the only ones going around plundering; the Byzantines themselves were hardly excluded from that club.
They were merely being opportunists picking on a crumbling empire. Had the EastRomans kept their state ship-shape it wouldn't have happened. Always blame someone else, eh?

Urban was the guy who gave them the cannons, but there was a Scotsman in the Sultan's army helping to fire them.

Originally posted by Cywr At least one of them, a Scotsmen, was helping the Turks fire their cannons. What expertise he offered i don't know, how to light matches in the rain or something like that probably.

I believe he was Hungarian named Hurbanus (sp?). He first offered his services to the Byzantine emperor but when he didn't get the money he was asking, he moved to the Sultan's camp. He's the one who minted the great cannons that destroyed Constantinople's walls.

PS

Irrelevant: I'm listening to the Faithless at the moment, "I want more" is a trully great song... next week comes Thievery Corporation and then the Chemical brothers concert (and I got tickets for both . It's going to be a great summer

Edited by Yiannis

the western Europeans were too busy fighting each other to unite against this threat

At least one of them, a Scotsmen, was helping the Turks fire their cannons.
What expertise he offered i don't know, how to light matches in the rain or something like that probably.