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The "wicked and evil " Turks-1453

Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: Medieval Europe
Forum Discription: The Middle Ages: AD 500-1500
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3237
Printed Date: 25-May-2018 at 20:04
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Topic: The "wicked and evil " Turks-1453
Posted By: eaglecap
Subject: The "wicked and evil " Turks-1453
Date Posted: 04-May-2005 at 13:23
Good morning to all you evil and wicked Turks- 10:21 am Pacific standard time

Here is a quote from one of those evil and wicked Latins-

On the fith of May, the wicked and evil Turks went and place a great cannon on the top of the hill above Pera, and with these cannons they began to fire over Pera at our fleet, which lay by the boom.

I suppose it is all perspective on who is the wicked and evil one.

Constantinople the last bastion to an Islamic invasion but the western Europeans were too busy fighting each other to unite against this threat.

"Diary of the Seige of Constantinople" by Nicolo Barbaro



Replies:
Posted By: tzar
Date Posted: 04-May-2005 at 13:39

the western Europeans were too busy fighting each other to unite against this threat

Well this weren't the main occupation only to western european countries. We had practised it much longer than them. At the beginning turks was used from all balkan nation as allies, but they just "plough up" all areas without care on which side they are....And in this way step by step they become stronger and.....conquered the whole district!



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Everybody listen only this which understands.


Posted By: Komnenos
Date Posted: 04-May-2005 at 20:31
Originally posted by eaglecap


On the fith of May, the wicked and evil Turks went and place a great cannon on the top of the hill above Pera, and with these cannons they began to fire over Pera at our fleet, which lay by the boom.


A typical Venetian, this Nicolo Barbaro(sic!), not concerned about the city and people of Constantinople, who were the main target of the Turks, but about the couple of Venetian merchant vessels who got up in the siege. More worried about the loss of profit than the fate of the city.
Venice was more responsible for the demise of the Byzantine Empire than any other nation, if you want to call a gang of cut throat hawkers a "nation".
Great place, Venice, but a very dodgy past!


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[IMG]http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i137/komnenos/crosses1.jpg">


Posted By: Alparslan
Date Posted: 05-May-2005 at 06:28

Originally posted by eaglecap

Good morning to all you evil and wicked Turks- 10:21 am Pacific standard time

Here is a quote from one of those evil and wicked Latins-

On the fith of May, the wicked and evil Turks went and place a great cannon on the top of the hill above Pera, and with these cannons they began to fire over Pera at our fleet, which lay by the boom. 

There are a few days to walk on the streets........ We will wait until 29th of May.   I can here the songs that our soldiers sing and mehter band playing continuosly....... Go on. 



Posted By: Beylerbeyi
Date Posted: 05-May-2005 at 12:32

Venice was more responsible for the demise of the Byzantine Empire than any other nation, if you want to call a gang of cut throat hawkers a "nation".
Great place, Venice, but a very dodgy past!

Don't worry comrade, we will see them drown. Istanbul has 60 names and it has survived 60 disasters, both natural and man-made. As long as mankind builds cities, and the straits remain open (no ice age) it will be there.

Venice, on the other hand, is sinking fast. It is also being destroyed by pigeon droppings. A really fragile city, Venice is. Some decades later it will be nothing but a collection of submerged ruins. Scuba-diving tourists from Istanbul will be visiting it...



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Posted By: Komnenos
Date Posted: 05-May-2005 at 14:07
Originally posted by Beylerbeyi

Don't worry comrade, we will see them drown. Istanbul has 60 names and it has survived 60 disasters, both natural and man-made. As long as mankind builds cities, and the straits remain open (no ice age) it will be there.



Yaeh, heard that on BBC today,when they were talking about the upcoming CL Final: "That place is so good, they named it three times!"


Venice, on the other hand, is sinking fast. It is also being destroyed by pigeon droppings. 



Serves them bloody well right, 1204 and all that! Good riddance!



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[IMG]http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i137/komnenos/crosses1.jpg">


Posted By: akýncý
Date Posted: 28-May-2005 at 10:36

Originally posted by eaglecap

Good morning to all you evil and wicked Turks- 10:21 am Pacific standard time

Here is a quote from one of those evil and wicked Latins-

On the fith of May, the wicked and evil Turks went and place a great cannon on the top of the hill above Pera, and with these cannons they began to fire over Pera at our fleet, which lay by the boom.

I suppose it is all perspective on who is the wicked and evil one.

Constantinople the last bastion to an Islamic invasion but the western Europeans were too busy fighting each other to unite against this threat.

"Diary of the Seige of Constantinople" by Nicolo Barbaro

ever heard of the book THE OTTOMANS by Andrew Weathcroft?The best point of view ever



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"I am the scourage of god appointed to chastise you,since no one knows the remedy for your iniquity exept me.You are wicked,but I am more wicked than you,so be silent!"
              


Posted By: Jazz
Date Posted: 29-May-2005 at 02:51
Originally posted by Komnenos

....Great place, Venice, but a very dodgy past!


Great play on words there (cf Doge)!

But agreed, I'd classify Venetian architecture as "Early ransack!"

It's a shame that this Christian atrocity is not more well known and how it's greed shaped forever the future of the Mediteranean world

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http://www.forums.internationalhockey.net/index.php?/index.php?referrerid=8 - International Hockey Forums


Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 29-May-2005 at 03:05
the western Europeans were too busy fighting each other to unite against this threat


At least one of them, a Scotsmen, was helping the Turks fire their cannons.
What expertise he offered i don't know, how to light matches in the rain or something like that probably.


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Arrrgh!!"


Posted By: Gazi
Date Posted: 29-May-2005 at 13:51
Who is that Scotsman helping us, evil subhumans?

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“Freedom is the recognition of necessity.”-Friedrich Engels


Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 29-May-2005 at 14:14

Originally posted by Cywr



At least one of them, a Scotsmen, was helping the Turks fire their cannons.
What expertise he offered i don't know, how to light matches in the rain or something like that probably.

I believe he was Hungarian named Hurbanus (sp?). He first offered his services to the Byzantine emperor but when he didn't get the money he was asking, he moved to the Sultan's camp. He's the one who minted the great cannons that destroyed Constantinople's walls.

PS

Irrelevant: I'm listening to the Faithless at the moment, "I want more" is a trully great song... next week comes Thievery Corporation and then the Chemical brothers concert (and I got tickets for both . It's going to be a great summer



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The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin


Posted By: Jazz
Date Posted: 30-May-2005 at 01:47
Originally posted by Yiannis

I believe he was Hungarian named Hurbanus (sp?).....


IIRC, I've seen his name spelt simply as "Urban" in more than one sourse.....however, it could have been an anglicized version.

I've also read how he offered his services to Constantine first, but realistically, what could he have offered that would have been of any help, other than keeping him away from the Turks?

I'm guessing that they may have tried to position his cannon behind the city walls, and fired at the Turk's positions....


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http://www.forums.internationalhockey.net/index.php?/index.php?referrerid=8 - International Hockey Forums


Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 30-May-2005 at 04:24
Urban was the guy who gave them the cannons, but there was a Scotsman in the Sultan's army helping to fire them.

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Arrrgh!!"


Posted By: Quetzalcoatl
Date Posted: 30-May-2005 at 04:43

 

 

 God bless the austrians for saving us.



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Posted By: Styrbiorn
Date Posted: 30-May-2005 at 06:15
A typical Venetian, this Nicolo Barbaro(sic!), not concerned about the city and people of Constantinople, who were the main target of the Turks, but about the couple of Venetian merchant vessels who got up in the siege. More worried about the loss of profit than the fate of the city.
Venice was more responsible for the demise of the Byzantine Empire than any other nation, if you want to call a gang of cut throat hawkers a "nation".


So what if the Venetians and others (esp. the Normans) plundered Constantinople. They were certainly not the only ones going around plundering; the Byzantines themselves were hardly excluded from that club.
They were merely being opportunists picking on a crumbling empire. Had the EastRomans kept their state ship-shape it wouldn't have happened. Always blame someone else, eh?


Posted By: akýncý
Date Posted: 30-May-2005 at 06:17

Originally posted by Cywr

Urban was the guy who gave them the cannons, but there was a Scotsman in the Sultan's army helping to fire them.

didn't urban die because of a misfire?



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"I am the scourage of god appointed to chastise you,since no one knows the remedy for your iniquity exept me.You are wicked,but I am more wicked than you,so be silent!"
              


Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 30-May-2005 at 07:09
Hmm, don't know, but Urban designed and built a special siege cannon, called the Basilic (sp?) IIRC, the cannon eventualy broke towards the end of the siege, wether it was a misfire that also killed him i don't know.
But the Turks did have other cannons too, and other people to fire them and oversee their use, and there was Scotsman in there somewhere i'm, pretty sure

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Arrrgh!!"


Posted By: Constantine XI
Date Posted: 30-May-2005 at 07:59
I read of a Scotsman who apparently was on the Byzantine side. Grant was his name and traditionally he was considered a German though more recent scholarship (D. Nicol) claims it was more likely he was a Scot. From my memory of Nicol's book which last read 5 years ago he did a great service to the Christian side by helping foil the Ottoman attempts at mining the walls. Dunno if thats your bloke but hope this helps.

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Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 30-May-2005 at 08:59
Hmm, coming to think of it, i think it was mining and not cannons. So i guess he was on the Byzy-Roman side then.
My bad.


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Arrrgh!!"


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 30-May-2005 at 11:11

Mehmed II Khan had "ţahî" cannons to destroy the walls of Istanbul. Those were invented for him by a Hungarian, Ibrahim Müteferrika as I know...



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Posted By: Byzantine Emperor
Date Posted: 30-May-2005 at 12:23

Originally posted by Constantine XI

I read of a Scotsman who apparently was on the Byzantine side. Grant was his name and traditionally he was considered a German though more recent scholarship (D. Nicol) claims it was more likely he was a Scot. From my memory of Nicol's book which last read 5 years ago he did a great service to the Christian side by helping foil the Ottoman attempts at mining the walls. Dunno if thats your bloke but hope this helps.

Runciman in his Fall of Constantinople 1453 cites Sphrantzes' chronicle as well as Leonard of Chios' letters in saying that Johannes Grant was perhaps a Scotsman who came through Germany and came to the city in the company of Giovanni Giustiniani, the Genoese nobleman who helped in the defense.  Mark Bartusis in his Late Byzantine Army book also cites Sphrantzes and says Grant was a German.  Donald Nicol in his Last Centuries of Byzantium is slightly less prepared to determine Grant's nationality and says he could be a Scotsman or a German.  Where he is mentioned, though, his contribution to the defense of Constantinople is immense.  Grant and the Grand Duke Loukas Notaras detected the Serbian miners of the Turks as they dug under the Blachernae Wall near the Caligarian Gate.  A fierce battle ensued in the tunnels under the wall and Grant's men flushed the miners out.



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http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=12713 - Late Byzantine Military
http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=17337 - Ottoman perceptions of the Americas


Posted By: Jazz
Date Posted: 30-May-2005 at 22:27
Originally posted by Byzantine Emperor

Runciman in his Fall of Constantinople 1453 cites Sphrantzes' chronicle as well as Leonard of Chios' letters in saying that Johannes Grant was perhaps a Scotsman who came through Germany and came to the city in the company of Giovanni Giustiniani, the Genoese nobleman who helped in the defense.  Mark Bartusis in his Late Byzantine Army book also cites Sphrantzes and says Grant was a German.  Donald Nicol in his Last Centuries of Byzantium is slightly less prepared to determine Grant's nationality and says he could be a Scotsman or a German.  Where he is mentioned, though, his contribution to the defense of Constantinople is immense.  Grant and the Grand Duke Loukas Notaras detected the Serbian miners of the Turks as they dug under the Blachernae Wall near the Caligarian Gate.  A fierce battle ensued in the tunnels under the wall and Grant's men flushed the miners out.


Correct - I recall this now - I had read Runciman's book a couple of years ago....


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Posted By: Komnenos
Date Posted: 31-May-2005 at 05:11
Originally posted by Yiannis


I believe he was Hungarian named Hurbanus (sp?). He first offered his services to the Byzantine emperor but when he didn't get the money he was asking, he moved to the Sultan's camp. He's the one who minted the great cannons that destroyed Constantinople's walls.


There's seems to be confusion what nationality the engineer Urban was.
While both Nicol and Runciman state that he was Hungarian, J.J. Norwich mentions that he was German.
Edward Gibbon thinks he even might have been Danish:
"A founder of cannon, a Dane or Hungarian, who had been almost starved in the Greek service, deserted to the Moslems, and was liberally entertained by the Turkish sultan."( Chapter LXVIII,Part II )
He could have been both , of course, a Hungarian of German origin, as some regions in the Hungarian Kingdom, especially the area around Herrmannstadt, today Sibiu in Rumania, had been settled by German immigrants, called into the country by King Geza II in the 13th century.
Not that I want to claim this fellow, but could somebody shed more light on this?



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Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 31-May-2005 at 16:04

what is his full name?



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Posted By: Byzantine Emperor
Date Posted: 01-Jun-2005 at 14:55

Originally posted by Komnenos

[QUOTE=Yiannis] 
Not that I want to claim this fellow, but could somebody shed more light on this?

In a fascinating book about the evolution of gunpowder weapons in the late Middle Ages, A History of Greek Fire and Gunpowder, J.R. Partington states the following using Chalkokondyles (a late Byzantine historian) as a source.

"Chalkokondyles says the maker of the gun was a Dacian deserter from the Greeks named Urban ('Orbanos Dax')." (125).

Mark Bartusis specifically labels Urban a Hungarian, as does Runciman, Nicol, and David Nicholle, without exception.  As for Partington calling Urban a 'deserter', I would say he was more of a mercenary for hire, just like many of the other soldiers involved in the Fall of 1453.  The historians I mention all relate the story of how Urban first offered his services to Constantine XI, a Christian ruler, who had to refuse because of a shortage of funds.  Urban in turn went to Mehmed II who was able to hire him.  This also demonstrates the Ottomans' ability to recognize talent and adapt it towards their own uses (and I am NOT saying the Ottomans did not come up with anything original, don't get me wrong! ).

Edit: Had to transliterate the Greek characters!



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http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=12713 - Late Byzantine Military
http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=17337 - Ottoman perceptions of the Americas


Posted By: Komnenos
Date Posted: 04-Jun-2005 at 05:31
Maybe we can leave it here, and my illusion intact: A Hungarian with possible German ancestry, as there is no smoke without a fire.
And "Vorsprung durch Technik" engraved on every cannon ball, as it descended on the ancient city.

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[IMG]http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i137/komnenos/crosses1.jpg">


Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 06-Jun-2005 at 15:54
Dacian...that can refer to Transsylvania indeed, so he most likely was a German settler in Hungary.

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Posted By: Raider
Date Posted: 07-Jun-2005 at 06:10

 

I have read in the book Johannes Angelos by Mika Waltari that hungarian noblemen helped to install the ottoman artillery. I have never heard this before. Is this true? It is difficult me to beleive that the ottoman arrtillerymen need  foreign expertise.



Posted By: Menippos
Date Posted: 07-Jun-2005 at 07:23
Originally posted by Komnenos

Maybe we can leave it here, and my illusion intact: A Hungarian with possible German ancestry, as there is no smoke without a fire.
And "Vorsprung durch Technik" engraved on every cannon ball, as it descended on the ancient city.

LOL - and then the Germans complain about the invasion of Turkish immigrants in Germany...


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CARRY NOTHING


Posted By: Komnenos
Date Posted: 07-Jun-2005 at 10:23
Originally posted by Menippos


LOL - and then the Germans complain about the invasion of Turkish immigrants in Germany...


Don't over-generalise, some Germans might complain about it, right-wing lunatics, xenophobes, the gutter press, the usual suspects, and there are some issues about integration and multi-cultural society,... but on the whole, we need each other and we know that.

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Posted By: Menippos
Date Posted: 07-Jun-2005 at 11:25
Originally posted by Komnenos

Originally posted by Menippos


LOL - and then the Germans complain about the invasion of Turkish immigrants in Germany...

Don't over-generalise, some Germans might complain about it, right-wing lunatics, xenophobes, the gutter press, the usual suspects, and there are some issues about integration multi-cultural society,... but on the whole, we need each other and we know that.

Yes, I agree, and thet is the way I feel about the Albanians and other immigrants in Greece, and I have posted somewhere a more thorough account of this view of mine. Long story short, I believe that they are good for the economy.
But this belongs to another thread and I would not wish to mess up the subject of this one.


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CARRY NOTHING


Posted By: Richard XIII
Date Posted: 07-Jun-2005 at 11:52
Tsar
He could have been both , of course, a Hungarian of German origin, as some regions in the Hungarian Kingdom, especially the area around Herrmannstadt, today Sibiu in Rumania, had been settled by German immigrants, called into the country by King Geza II in the 13th century.

In Romania we claim that he was romanian and he offered his services to Byzantium first but the lack of money  makes him to pass otherside.  As usual we are on both sides in the same time .


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"I want to know God's thoughts...
...the rest are details."

Albert Einstein


Posted By: Menippos
Date Posted: 07-Jun-2005 at 15:55
He reminds me of another guy, some millennia before...
Efialtis was his name...


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CARRY NOTHING


Posted By: Raider
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2005 at 04:04
Originally posted by Richard XIII


In Romania we claim that he was romanian
How typical Romanian for the Romanian, Hungarian for the Hungarian, german for the others.


Posted By: Richard XIII
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2005 at 06:57
Originally posted by Raider

Originally posted by Richard XIII


In Romania we claim that he was romanian
How typical Romanian for the Romanian, Hungarian for the Hungarian, german for the others.


Let's see was an EU citizen or a future one.


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"I want to know God's thoughts...
...the rest are details."

Albert Einstein


Posted By: Richard XIII
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2005 at 06:58
say

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"I want to know God's thoughts...
...the rest are details."

Albert Einstein


Posted By: Jagatai Khan
Date Posted: 15-Jun-2005 at 09:16

Mehmed II Khan had "ţahî" cannons to destroy the walls of Istanbul. Those were invented for him by a Hungarian, Ibrahim Müteferrika as I know...

The inventor of the cannons was "Urban" from Hungary so the cannons also called as "The Urban's Cannons".

However at the beginning of the battle Urban died and the barrels  of the cannons cracked so they couldn't be used so much.

Ibrahim Müteferrika is the man who brought printery to Turkey



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Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 15-Jun-2005 at 16:23
Originally posted by Jagatai Khan

Ibrahim Müteferrika

Müntefering?  



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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 16-Jun-2005 at 00:31
Originally posted by Jagatai Khan

Mehmed II Khan had "ţahî" cannons to destroy the walls of Istanbul. Those were invented for him by a Hungarian, Ibrahim Müteferrika as I know...

The inventor of the cannons was "Urban" from Hungary so the cannons also called as "The Urban's Cannons".

However at the beginning of the battle Urban died and the barrels  of the cannons cracked so they couldn't be used so much.

Ibrahim Müteferrika is the man who brought printery to Turkey

Yeah, I think I was wrong, sorry...



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Posted By: ill_teknique
Date Posted: 15-Jul-2005 at 14:02
Originally posted by Komnenos

Originally posted by eaglecap


On the fith of May, the wicked and evil Turks went and place a great cannon on the top of the hill above Pera, and with these cannons they began to fire over Pera at our fleet, which lay by the boom.


A typical Venetian, this Nicolo Barbaro(sic!), not concerned about the city and people of Constantinople, who were the main target of the Turks, but about the couple of Venetian merchant vessels who got up in the siege. More worried about the loss of profit than the fate of the city.
Venice was more responsible for the demise of the Byzantine Empire than any other nation, if you want to call a gang of cut throat hawkers a "nation".
Great place, Venice, but a very dodgy past!


true I love your avatar Drug Tito the good old times


Posted By: Heraclius
Date Posted: 15-Jul-2005 at 15:38

 Typical Venetians indeed, never has there been such a group of greedy, backstabbing people like the Venetians, much of what makes Venice, is stolen or bought with other peoples gold.

 I have nothing but my contempt for the medieval venetians.



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A tomb now suffices him for whom the world was not enough.


Posted By: ill_teknique
Date Posted: 15-Jul-2005 at 16:03
isnt the tetrach statue stolen from istanbul in venice right now?


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 15-Jul-2005 at 17:38

There are turkish here, they can confirm that.

In Istanbul there is a quarteer named Galata. It was the genoese head quarteer in byzantine empire, from where they ruled the commerce, the emperor and the straits to black sea, that have been called "a genoese lake" with the installations of Caffa, Sevastopol, Trabzon, Azov, etc...

In Galata genoese built the "tower of the Christ" now known simply as tower of Galata. It have been the last bastion against ottoman soldiers and the general commisioned to defend the walls of costantinople was the genoese Giovanni Giustiniani.

In honor of genoese turkish wrote a commemorative tablet,  fixed up the tower.

The reticence of venetians was a revenge against their etern enemy genoese, that in 1261 subtracted them the control of the byzantine empire withe the treaty of Nympheum. Genoese colonies (specially Chios) in Aegean isles carry on untill XVII century.

Glata Tower today

galata tower today

  1. Costaninople and Galata, with the tower on the left http://faculty.washington.edu/selims/Matrakci.htm - http://faculty.washington.edu/selims/Matrakci.htm
  2. The privilegiate point of view from the tower today http://www-star.stanford.edu/~bbaas/trips/2002.09_Turkey/115-1561_zPanorama2.jpg - http://www-star.stanford.edu/~bbaas/trips/2002.09_Turkey/115 -1561_zPanorama2.jpg
  3. Galata tower old photo http://www.old-istanbul.com/Page7/GALATA9.JPG - http://www.old-istanbul.com/Page7/GALATA9.JPG
  4. The turkish insription: <29 MAYS /(1453)/ SALI SABAHI / CENEVIZLERIN / GALATA / KOLONISI /ANAHTARLARINI / FATIH SULTAN /MEHMED' E /TAKDIM ETMIS / VE GALATININ / TESLIMI /I HAZIRAN CUMA / GUNU TAMAM /LAN MISIDIR>


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Posted By: Komnenos
Date Posted: 15-Jul-2005 at 19:20
Originally posted by ill_teknique

isnt the tetrach statue stolen from istanbul in venice right now?


Yup, one of the many things the Venetians looted in 1204. The four horses of St.Marks Cathedral used to stand in the Hippodrome of Constantinople.

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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 15-Jul-2005 at 20:48

The horses are now on the top of St Marc Cathedral in Venice.

http://members.aol.com/eokamoto31/sanmarco.htm - http://members.aol.com/eokamoto31/sanmarco.htm



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Posted By: gerik
Date Posted: 08-Sep-2005 at 11:16
Originally posted by Temujin

Originally posted by Jagatai Khan

Ibrahim Müteferrika

Müntefering?  



Actually we don't know the real name of  Ibrahim Müteferrika,this name is
his chosen name after being converted to islam.  He  set  up his printing  facility  in a part of  Istanbul named Madsar Mehalle  (hungarian outskirt or hungarian part of town).
What we know for sure is what he sais in Risale-i Islamije:

I, a pure and modest servant, I was born in Hungary, in the town of
Kolozsvár.

 In the time of 
of  Ibrahim Müteferrika, especially  after  the revolution of Rákoczi II was defeated by the austrians many hungarians emigrated to Turkey (especially hungarian unitarians ), even Rákoczi II spent his exile in Tekirdag until his dead in 1735.
From 1718
Ibrahim Müteferrika was the tranlater and  secretary in turkish
affairs of Rákoczi II.
Ibrahim Müteferrika is believed to be originally a hungarian unitarian.
In his time many hungarian unitarians were living in Turkey .
Unitarian faith believes only in one god and denies the holy trinity.
It is supposed that's why he converted so easily to islam.
Unitarianism in Europe is the religion only of hungarians and the majority
of unitarians are living in Transylvania. In Transylvania only hungarians are
of unitarian faith and this is true also for the calvinist faith. (The other name of Calvinist faith  is the Reformed ).
The literature on Ibrahim Müteferrika (including turkish one) holds that he was originally a hungarian unitarian.

In german on Müteferrika :
http://www.literaturca.de/html/muteferrika.html
In hungarian:
members.iif.hu/visontay/ponticulus/limes/muteferrika.html
In turkish
http://www.kimkimdir.gen.tr/kimkimdir.php?id=206
In english:
http://terebess.hu/english/orient.html
http://www.masterliness.com/a/Ibrahim.Muteferrika.htm

www.absoluteastronomy.com/encyclopedia/I/Ib/Ibrahim_Muteferr ika.htm

There is an interesting article:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/style/longterm/books/ chap1/whatwentwrong.htm
Here comes up also Müteferrika.

Another famous convert was a Hungarian seminarist, probably Unitarian, known in Turkish annals as Ibrahim Müteferrika. Ibrahim's original family name is unknown; Müteferrika is a title, indicating membership of a kind of elite guard corps attached to the sultan's person.




Posted By: gerik
Date Posted: 08-Sep-2005 at 12:53
Originally posted by Richard XIII

Originally posted by Raider

Originally posted by Richard XIII


In Romania we claim that he was romanian
How typical Romanian for the Romanian, Hungarian for the Hungarian, german for the others.


Let's see was an EU citizen or a future one.


Actiually the name Orbán is a hungarian name.
Like Orb
án Balázs , Orbán Viktor (the former prime minister of hungary).
Orb
án Balázs was szekler (székely) hungarian writer, scientist in the 19th century, who gave a vivid description of the szeklers land.
As I know Urban (Urb
án maybe just a dialectal variation of the name Orbán ) of cannons was a szekler hungarian. The szeklers land is in Transylvania.

Etymology of the name Orban/Urban:
http://andreorban.tripod.com/orbetym.html

Is it Urban/Orban  name  a  common  German  name?

By  the  way is it supposed that  szeklers (on of the hungarian tribe at conquest) are  of turkish origin.Also it is know fact that many hungarians have kun (cumman, also a turkish tribe) ancestors,especially the inhabitants of the Hungarian region Kiskuns
ág.






Posted By: Komnenos
Date Posted: 08-Sep-2005 at 13:05
Originally posted by gerik



Is it Urban/Orban  name  a  common  German  name?



It's not that terribly common, but not unusual either. The most famous bearer of the name was Adolf Urban, football player in the 30s for Germany and Germany's greatest team ever, FC Schalke O4, who won the championship no less than six times in that decade.

I've no idea, if Adolf Urban was a descendant of the famous Engineer Urban, but considering the might and velocity of his feared free-kicks, there might be a connection.



Ada Urban, Schalkes Kanone

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Posted By: Komnenos
Date Posted: 08-Sep-2005 at 13:16
Originally posted by gerik


Actiually the name Orbán is a hungarian name.


There is also a the possibily that Orban might be the Hungarian variation of the name Urban, that derived from the Latin noun "urbis", the town or city, and from the adjektiv "urbanus" , meaning, finully enough, urban.
Urban was and is a very common Christian name, notably that of no less than eight Popes.

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Posted By: gerik
Date Posted: 08-Sep-2005 at 13:30
To quote
http://andreorban.tripod.com/orbetym.html
the hungarian etymology is:


  • According to some sources, the Hungarian etymology is the same as the Belgian one: the Hungarian name Orbán is derived from the latin name urbanus. Initially, Urbanus became Urban, often written Vrban during the XVth and XVIth centuries: the name later evolved into Orban, and finally Orbán. Originally it was a Christian name (there is a St. Orbán) that later became a family name. Apparently, it is still used as a Christian name in Hungary, but this is now fairly rare.
  • For other sources, there is a truly Hungarian etymology to the name: Orbán is a combination of Or(r) and Ban. Ban is the Hungarian word for chieftain/headman (minor nobility), whereas Orr means nose. Does it mean that the Orbán's were noblemen with a big nose


By the way hungarians put the surname first and after that the christian name. The name Orbán is used mostly as family name.
So in english or german order
you put the names as Viktor Orbán,
Bal
ázs Orbán,but in hungarian no.



Posted By: ill_teknique
Date Posted: 08-Sep-2005 at 14:33
Originally posted by Komnenos

Originally posted by Menippos


LOL - and then the Germans complain about the invasion of Turkish immigrants in Germany...


Don't over-generalise, some Germans might complain about it, right-wing lunatics, xenophobes, the gutter press, the usual suspects, and there are some issues about integration and multi-cultural society,... but on the whole, we need each other and we know that.


*Edit - do not write in language other than english*


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Posted By: LeftEyeNine
Date Posted: 20-Sep-2005 at 10:31

Also it is know fact that many hungarians have kun (cumman, also a turkish tribe) ancestors,especially the inhabitants of the Hungarian region Kiskunság.

Cumans are the only Turkic tribe with blonde / red hair. They have such a specialty.

By the way, you know that Indo-European languages have somehow a common root. And considering the fact that Greece and Hungary are geographically close, it is quite likely that Urban name could be used in both cultures, mutated in order to accomply with each languages phonetics, of course..

What's more, I hope I'm welcome. That's my first post here. I'm already informed a lot in one single topic.  




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Posted By: Constantine XI
Date Posted: 20-Sep-2005 at 19:57
Welcome, though if my intuition serves me Urban seems to have been more of a Latin name, seeing as it was so popular in the West. With the collapse of the West Roman Empire, names seem to have developed or been indepently alot in the East and West. We see the name Andronicus, for example, used early on in Rome yet only living on in Byzantium to the best of my knowledge.

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Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 21-Sep-2005 at 03:44

Originally posted by Constantine XI

We see the name Andronicus, for example, used early on in Rome yet only living on in Byzantium to the best of my knowledge.

My aunt is called Andronice and her husband Lychimachus! (only I got to take this boring name)



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The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin


Posted By: Constantine XI
Date Posted: 21-Sep-2005 at 08:59
Wow, now that's continuity! I have a mono-syllable Anglo name which dates to the 19th century. After a party one day a Greek girl was with me and 6 friends and gave the equivilent of each of their names in Greek. Then it came to my turn and she just shrugged.

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Posted By: merced12
Date Posted: 24-Sep-2005 at 17:49

you speak same as hitler constaninopolis fall down istanbul rise



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http://www.turks.org.uk/ - http://www.turks.org.uk/
16th century world;
Ottomans all Roman orients
Safavids in Persia
Babur in india
`azerbaycan bayragini karabagdan asacagim``


Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 24-Sep-2005 at 18:25

Originally posted by gerik

Is it Urban/Orban  name  a  common  German  name?

more or less, when I was in the air-force, there was a master-sergeant named Urban...



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Posted By: gerik
Date Posted: 26-Sep-2005 at 13:50
Temujin are you really a cuban or just a fan of Che? 
What air-force were you in?

ˇCuba libre!




Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 26-Sep-2005 at 15:40
Im just a Che supporter, I was in the Luftwaffe of course.

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Posted By: violentjack
Date Posted: 11-May-2006 at 14:08
Originally posted by eaglecap

Good morning to all you evil and wicked Turks- 10:21 am Pacific standard time

Here is a quote from one of those evil and wicked Latins-

On the fith of May, the wicked and evil Turks went and place a great cannon on the top of the hill above Pera, and with these cannons they began to fire over Pera at our fleet, which lay by the boom.

I suppose it is all perspective on who is the wicked and evil one.

Constantinople the last bastion to an Islamic invasion but the western Europeans were too busy fighting each other to unite against this threat.

"Diary of the Seige of Constantinople" by Nicolo Barbaro



Actually it was treason in christian ranks that brought fall of Konstantinople.First to fall was Pera and Mletan quarters,and then Phanar district that surendered without shot being fired even before first Ottoman soldiers were to enter town on May 29 1453

Phanar surendered under condition that people be spared and orthodox churches in area,two from 11 century not be destroyed,.This was done and some thing in one of those churches head of Constantine XI Paleogolus lie.Not proven but could be true.And Catholic italian scontinued trading with those awfull Turks later on




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Bosnjaci,probudite se ili nestanite


Posted By: RomiosArktos
Date Posted: 11-May-2006 at 14:29
Originally posted by violentjack



Actually it was treason in christian ranks that brought fall of Konstantinople.First to fall was Pera and Mletan quarters,and then Phanar district that surendered without shot being fired even before first Ottoman soldiers were to enter town on May 29 1453



It is not true that the city fell because of treason.The city fell because of  many factors:
The defenders were outnumbered
The turks managed to blockade the port with their fleet and managed to get their ships in to the Golden Horn.So the city was surrounded from all sides
The turks had artillery and were doing great damage to the walls,so the few defenders had also the task to repair the walls every night.
Pope and Venice decided too late to send reeinforcements which of course never arrived
 
The Kerkoporta postern was not opened by any traitors.This small gate was used by the defenders in order to make flanking sorties against the turks.what happened at 29th May was that the flanking units under Brocchiardi brothers didn't manage to close the gate and the jannisaries passed through the open kerkoporta and took control of the walls over the gate of St.Romanus.When they had done this,the defense of the city was destined to break.At the same time there was an assault from the walls that looked to the sea.Emperor
Constantine XI must have fallen fighting at the gate of St.Romanus



Posted By: violentjack
Date Posted: 11-May-2006 at 15:21
Maybe you should read a book or two
I didnt say city fell because of treason,but some quarters surendered without a fight
Maybe if you have read some more books,would know this




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Bosnjaci,probudite se ili nestanite


Posted By: RomiosArktos
Date Posted: 11-May-2006 at 15:25
Ok,you are right.It is true that some quarters surrendered without fighting but could they have done anything else? Since the Turks had got themselves into the city then the defense must have been pointless.


Posted By: violentjack
Date Posted: 11-May-2006 at 16:19
True but even without Konstantinple would fall,after 4 crusades it never recovered.And there were many sieges that went bad for Ottomans before 1532.There was 1422 siege by Murad not much success there,and even Rhumi tried to take the town in early stages of Islamic history,sadly he died near gates of Konstantinople then




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Bosnjaci,probudite se ili nestanite


Posted By: Constantine XI
Date Posted: 11-May-2006 at 17:57
Once the walls fell there was very little point in fighting any further. You may be able to hold your own when outnumbered nearly 20 to 1 on the walls of Constantinople, but in the open streets of the city you don't stand a chance. Once the walls fell, the most sensible thing for the citizens and soldiers to do was either to escape by sea or seek refuge in churches and hope for the best.

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Posted By: violentjack
Date Posted: 11-May-2006 at 18:10
Meant to say 1422
f**k didnt see and those numbers


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Bosnjaci,probudite se ili nestanite


Posted By: Ponce de Leon
Date Posted: 14-May-2006 at 18:53
Wasnt there a Spaniard mercenary at 1453 also fighting along side the Byzantine Emperor? I think I read about him as well


Posted By: Komnenos
Date Posted: 15-May-2006 at 02:03
Originally posted by Ponce de Leon

Wasnt there a Spaniard mercenary at 1453 also fighting along side the Byzantine Emperor? I think I read about him as well



Indeed, Runciman mentions ( "The Fall of Constantinople") a company of Catalan soldiers under the command of Pere Julia, who were in charge of the defence on the shore near the Hippodrome.

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